Reading Scrolls under water

[Haldrick]

Is it possible to read a normal scroll written for the air breathing world underwater?

The rules for the "potion sponge" on page 177 of the Advanced Race Guide obviously makes clear potions cannot be used without the sponge, but I cannot find anything about scrolls.

Common sense would indicate that you would need waterproof ink and paper.

[Pizza Lord]

I think it's mostly the speaking underwater part that causes the most problems. Otherwise, it's probably dependent on the individual environment. If the water cloudy with lots of silt or murky? Then it might be hard to read, especially without goggles to prevent distortion.

Otherwise, most inks will run and smear if not made to withstand moisture. Even so, if the paper isn't also treated it will bleed and blur even well-dried inks, smearing words and carefully scribed curves and sigils into amorphous blobs and Rorschach tests.

[Haldrick]

Thanks for the quick reply Pizza Lord

I am running Ruins of Azlanti.
All the characters can breath water, so casting isn't a problem.

I am sure underwater races could make scrolls for their environment. But can the characters use scrolls found/made on land?
For the reasons you set out I am inclined to say no, unless the rule say otherwise

[avr]

It should be possible to put a scroll in a sealed box with a glass lid. It might be possible to use a coat of varnish or similar to keep a scroll's ink from rapidly running.

For a scroll which is high enough level to be worth it, air bubble or book ward are spells which could preserve a scroll.

[Haldrick]

When I said "inclined to say no" That is in general. If the players/character do thinks like avr suggested then obviously they should be rewarded.

[Name Violation]

I mean, couldn't you "scribe a scroll" by carving on a stone or wood tablet?

[Haldrick]

Name Violation wrote:

I mean, couldn't you "scribe a scroll" by carving on a stone or wood tablet?

Obsoletely. That is what I meant when I said "I am sure underwater races could make scrolls for their environment. But can the characters use scrolls found/made on land?"

I would even allow underwater folk to have waterproof paper/ink.
My question was simply about scroll created to be used on land.

[Carrauntoohil]

Haldrick wrote:

For the reasons you set out I am inclined to say no, unless the rule say otherwise

What balance issues do you predict from saying yes instead?

Scrolls are magical objects, after all. It's reasonable to assume that the process of creating them isn't so easily undone by water.

[Pizza Lord]

Carrauntoohil wrote:

What balance issues do you predict from saying yes instead?

It isn't necessarily balance issues as it is just how things work. You could just as easily ask why he doesn't make metal not rust naturally (not magically or from a rust monster attack), it just means you wouldn't find rusty items normally or if you did it would mean there's some overarching reason. Is it going to affect the game in any meaningful way that would upset game balance? Probably not. But if the PCs find an old sword lost in a swamp for 50 years and it's pristine, sure there could be magic involved and if you want magic items to never rust, rot, warp, or age, that's fine, it's just not how things normally would work. Just like the PCs fishing a 2 year-old scroll out of the mucky seawater at the docks and it being perfectly usable and fine.

Similarly, a magic potion can evaporate or dry up if left out in the sun or just dilute away if uncorked underwater. Allowing potions to just 'gel up' if opened underwater or float like a ball of liquid if poured into the air like it was zero gravity might not cause balance issues, it just isn't how they normally function. You can certainly make them do that if it would be cool.

Carrauntoohil wrote:

Scrolls are magical objects, after all. It's reasonable to assume that the process of creating them isn't so easily undone by water.

The fact that the object is magical makes it more durable in certain ways (it will get a saving throw even if unattended where a normal object wouldn't), but it isn't any more resistant to most damage. 1 point of damage to a scroll is going to destroy it whether it's magical or not or whether it has writing, sheet music, or a spell written on it. You can tear it just as easily as a normal scroll or burn it just as easily (obviously unless it's treated or magically protected against certain things).

Just because a magical scroll requires expensive components like paper made from rare trees or pressed during a full moon or exotic inks, doesn't mean that they react differently to their environment; a magical scroll is still affected by gravity, it can still be rolled up or creased or folded like any normal scroll of the same material (parchment, stone, vellum, etc.).

[Diego Rossi]

Actually, even in our world, there are kinds of paper and inks that resist fairly well water exposure. The paper becomes weaker when wet but, if handled with care, it doesn't tear.
Considering the cost of the scrolls, I don't think the ink used is the common iron gall ink that was used in the middle ages (that, BTW, with time damage the page), so we can assume that a scroll costing at a minimum 6.25 gp in components (approximately 300 € or $) will be capable to withstand some days of water exposure.

After the Florence flood, the old books that couldn't be immediately treated were kept in distilled water as drying them improperly would have done more damage than keeping them underwater for months.

[Scavion]

Scrolls do not necessarily have to be made on paper. They could be a glyph carved on a rock or a bone. Presumably any scrolls found near coastal settlements would be resistant to water due to more wet weather.

[Carrauntoohil]

Pizza Lord wrote:

It isn't necessarily balance issues as it is just how things work.

Is it how things work? Really? Can you cite rules on it for me?

Or did you mean how things work in the real world? Because the real world doesn't have magic scrolls that need a feat to be able to create and upon which actual workable spells that immediately produce fireballs are written.

Quote:

Similarly, a magic potion can evaporate or dry up if left out in the sun or just dilute away if uncorked underwater [...] it just isn't how they normally function.

Again, do you have rules text for either of these? I'm not aware of any rules about potion viscosity or water solubility.

Quote:

1 point of damage to a scroll is going to destroy it whether it's magical or not or whether it has writing, sheet music, or a spell written on it [....]doesn't mean that they react differently to their environment

Where are you getting the environmental rules that say that being submerged in water is sufficient to cause 1hp of damage (or more) to a scroll?

[Pizza Lord]

Carrauntoohil wrote:

Is it how things work? Really?

Yes. It is really how things work.

If you want to make a house rule that makes things not work how they really work in a way that isn't covered by the rules, then you can do that, but this post wasn't about house rules. Nor was your question about rules, it was about balance.

Carrauntoohil wrote:

Where are you getting the environmental rules that say that being submerged in water is sufficient to cause 1hp of damage (or more) to a scroll?

I don't remember anyone saying that. I said that a magical scroll taking 1 point of damage is the same as a non-magical scroll taking 1 point of damage. I said a magical scroll reacts no differently to stimulus that would affect a non-magical scroll.

If an unprotected magical scroll is in an environment that would affect a scroll, it's affected. That's common sense. It might get a save where an unattended non-magical one would not, but that's not the issue.
An unprotected magical scroll in a fiery environment, such as the Plane of Fire, will catch fire and burn, and it burning will be just as bad for a magical scroll as for a non-magical scroll. The same is true for a magical scroll torn in half, or one completely erased, or one soaked to a point of illegibility, or one that crumbles to dust.

Carrauntoohil wrote:

Can you cite rules on it for me?

The replies you're quoting aren't about rules. You asked about balance and opined that because something is magic it's inherently different in an ambiguous way that isn't stated in the rules.

If you want to make your magic scrolls react or act differently in your world, you can do that.

You don't need rules for common sense knowledge or how things really work unless they work differently than common sense would dictate or how things would really work.

You don't need a rule about which way a person falls unless it would be other than the one indicated by gravity. You don't need a rule that tells you wheels roll. You don't need a rule for whether a candle melts when it's lit or not unless the candle doesn't melt when lit (like it normally works). You don't need a ruling that tells you dirt is dirty or water is wet or fire burns, unless they don't or aren't.

If you want to rule in your games that an unprotected scroll is unaffected in any way by anything, then that's fine. You can even rule that it's unaffected and usable for a set amount of time, like 1 round or 1 hour after being affected by something, like being submerged, allowing a mage to bring out a scroll and read it within 1 round before the ink is smeared or the intricate runes on it are smudged enough to be unusable, then go ahead. But there's no rules for how long it takes to soak to uselessness or how long it takes a 1 pound piece of iron to rust halfway through naturally. It's subjective, but that doesn't mean it isn't how things work.

[AwesomenessDog]

Keep in mind we are working with magical inks to write the scroll, there is canon metal and stone tablet scrolls in Mummy's Mask, and even in historical time periods, stretched hide parchment was more common than actual paper (especially for permanent writings like you would expect out of a scroll), and doesn't blot because the ink is literally soaked into the skin cells.

Also @Pizza Lord, so you admit that there's no rules for how it works, and yet you prescribe an instant ruining of the item to the touch of water, despite that not being how it also works in real life?

[Pizza Lord]

AwesomenessDog wrote:

Also @Pizza Lord, so you admit that there's no rules for how it works, and yet you prescribe an instant ruining of the item to the touch of water, despite that not being how it also works in real life?

I never said anything of the kind, instant or otherwise. If whatever does occur is something that smears, ruins, or otherwise disrupts the scroll, it will make it unreadable. However the GM determines, based on whatever variables they determine; be that ink consistency, scroll construction, water acidity or alkaline content, it is their prerogative.

[Carrauntoohil]

Pizza Lord wrote:

The replies you're quoting aren't about rules. You asked about balance and opined that because something is magic it's inherently different in an ambiguous way that isn't stated in the rules

This is the Rules Questions forum.

By definition, the discussions are about the existing rules.

[Diego Rossi]

The rules don't say anything in one direction or the other, so the GM should decide how vulnerable are the magical scroll, how potions (and extract) are affected by some second of exposure to water between the moment in which they are opened and the moment in which they are drunk, how water affects bowstring and so on.

As I said, based on RL examples and the cost of a scroll material I would allow it to withstand several days of submersion in water. Being wet and exposed to air is way more damaging, but it still will require time.
I will allow drinking potions or extracts, but they would be ruined if left open in water for more than a round.
Not magically protected or non specially constructed bowstrings will be ruined in a few rounds.
For other stuff, it depends on the items and how their RL counterpart will react to submersion.

[Senko]

This is why I take bookward makes what you cast it on waterproof and fireproof. That said I'm 90% sure I saw an underwater scroll somewhere made specifically for that environment.

[Senko]

Stupid edit limmit, here's what I was thinking of . . .

Paper, underwater (sheet)
Source Blood of the Sea pg. 19
Price 6 sp; Weight —
Category Adventuring Gear
Description
Not all underwater creatures use sight as their primary means of reading text, so underwater paper is significantly thicker than surface paper, allowing the writer to carve the letters into the sheet. This lets creatures with blindsight see the textured writing from afar as well as allowing others to read it by touch, or sometimes from a short distance if they have unusually precise tremorsense. For underwater societies where vision is more prominent, the writer can fill the carved grooves with colorful ink (and potentially bioluminescent ink) and then adhere a transparent waterproof sheet on top to prevent the ink from washing away. This transparent sheet costs an additional 4 sp.

[Diego Rossi]

Senko wrote:

Stupid edit limmit, here's what I was thinking of . . .

Paper, underwater (sheet)
Source Blood of the Sea pg. 19
Price 6 sp; Weight —
Category Adventuring Gear
Description
Not all underwater creatures use sight as their primary means of reading text, so underwater paper is significantly thicker than surface paper, allowing the writer to carve the letters into the sheet. This lets creatures with blindsight see the textured writing from afar as well as allowing others to read it by touch, or sometimes from a short distance if they have unusually precise tremorsense. For underwater societies where vision is more prominent, the writer can fill the carved grooves with colorful ink (and potentially bioluminescent ink) and then adhere a transparent waterproof sheet on top to prevent the ink from washing away. This transparent sheet costs an additional 4 sp.

It is Braille paper and writing. Not exactly the same thing as a normal scroll.

On the other hand the "transparent waterproof sheet" cost 4 sp. Buying two and encasing a scroll in them will be a negligible part of the cost of a scroll.

[Senko]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Senko wrote:

Stupid edit limmit, here's what I was thinking of . . .

Paper, underwater (sheet)
Source Blood of the Sea pg. 19
Price 6 sp; Weight —
Category Adventuring Gear
Description
Not all underwater creatures use sight as their primary means of reading text, so underwater paper is significantly thicker than surface paper, allowing the writer to carve the letters into the sheet. This lets creatures with blindsight see the textured writing from afar as well as allowing others to read it by touch, or sometimes from a short distance if they have unusually precise tremorsense. For underwater societies where vision is more prominent, the writer can fill the carved grooves with colorful ink (and potentially bioluminescent ink) and then adhere a transparent waterproof sheet on top to prevent the ink from washing away. This transparent sheet costs an additional 4 sp.

It is Braille paper and writing. Not exactly the same thing as a normal scroll.

On the other hand the "transparent waterproof sheet" cost 4 sp. Buying two and encasing a scroll in them will be a negligible part of the cost of a scroll.

True but there's also an underwater quill that is used to write Ink into these sheets and any other surface that is carvable. The second half of the description mentions this with its reference to colourful or bioluminescent (glows in the dark) ink. So it works for both braille and written writing meaning you just have to figure out a way of reading it while underwater.