I am currently playing a pathfinder campaign and we have a Paladin of Torag in our group and the way he plays the Paladin bugs me. I came here to find out if i maybe just misunderstand the paladin class or if Paladins of Torag are just a special bunch.
In our last sessions 2 thing happened i was wondering about:
During an encounter, the Paladin was killed and his soul subsequently transferred into a clone of a runelord. When we later encountered an Avatar of Nocticula (Nocticula as CE demon lord), he attempted to deceive the Avatar by acting as the rune lord (using his new body) and later agreed to set the Avatar free (through a portal of unknown destination).
Both of which doesnt seem very Paladin-like to me.
Later in the dungeon, the rogue set of a trap and was subsequently dominated and attacked the group - attacking the Paladin first. The monk of the group hit the rogue with a stunning fist (and several more attacks of unlethal damage), causing the rogue to drop his weapons and becoming more or less defenseless. The Paladin, however, still went full round attack on the rogue on account of "being attacked and having to defend himself".
That also seemed a bit off to me, wouldnt a paladin at least try to subdue a party member first, especially when that party member is unarmed?
Or is it just me being to picky?
First, these threads always end up going off the rails, so ... be prepaired for that I guess.
Let's take a look at the Paladin code:
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Next, let's look at Torag's code:
Paladin Code
Paladins of Torag are dedicated to protecting not just the lives but the way of life for those under their charge, and hold the ways of their chosen people as holy, especially when they are the centuries-old works and traditions of an entire race. Their tenets include the following affirmations.
- My word is my bond. When I give my word formally, I defend my oath to my death. Traps lie in idle banter or thoughtless talk, and so I watch my tongue.
- I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others if need be.
- I respect the forge, and never sully it with half-hearted work. My creations reflect the depth of my faith, and I will not allow flaws save in direst need.
- Against my people’s enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants. I will defeat them, yet even in the direst struggle, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag.
Now, a Paladin of Torag does have to follow both of those codes , but the most important rule is this: A Paladin losing his powers should Never come as a surprise to the character. If you think a Paladin is about to do something that violates their code or goes against their god's beliefs, tell them. There's even an in-world mechanic for this ...
Providence
The Father of Creation sometimes sends messages that appear etched in stone to those he favors, while earthquakes are seen as the ultimate sign of his anger. Those who survive an earthquake are thought to be blessed.
... wow most gods aren't so literal. With Torag you can literally have a message appear in stone nearby to tell them off. If he does something really bad you could have small localised earthquakes when the Paladin goes to do something that violates his code of conduct. Don't ask for any knowledge checks or anything, just explain that the Paladin knows this as a sign of Torag's displeasure. If the Paladin changes tactics to something that Torag approves of have a smiley face appear.
Once again, this should never be a surprise to the player. Talk to the player before your next game and make an agreement on what the Codes mean, and what actions would violate it. Don't dictate this, actually have a discussion .
The bottom line is that the Paladin Code should be a roleplaying aid, not a punishment.
During an encounter, the Paladin was killed and his soul subsequently transferred into a clone of a runelord.
That alone would have me thinking this is not the Paladin any more.
The trickery looks fine to me, as Torag's paladin code is much different from the standard code int hat regard (and all but outright says "you don't have to be lawful stupid). "" ISG also says ""
Attacking a dominated but subdued party member is not so much in voilation of the Paladin code... but in stark contrast to his alignment. Full attacking the dominated Rogue after they had been made harmless has nothing to do with defending themself, it's revenge. If he didn't kill or permanently harm the Rogue the act is certainly not gross enough to warrant making the Paladin fall, but a sign that Torag is displeased would be in order. To quote ISG: "When angered, forges grow cold, shields crack, and even the simplest plan carries a feeling of impending doom."
Note: If the Rogue was not disarmed, full attacking him would've been totally fine. "" If 'ough love' is advised for unruly party members, it's certainly not an issue for dominated ones.
All quotes from ISG pg. 149ff.
The important question is: what does your GM think?
I agree that this is not the way a paladin should behave, and in my games this person would be an ex-paladin, but if your GM is OK with this there isn't much you can do or say.
Thats why i first came here. I was wondering if my take on the paladin on the whole was off.
I thank all of you for the input :-)
I shall now try to find a way to adress this, without pissing of the Paladin player and my GM.
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If you are neither the paladin player nor the GM then keep any criticism you make in-character, because you as a player don’t know what’s going on. Maybe the soul in the Runelord’s body wasn’t really the paladin. Maybe the player has agreed with the ref that the character is going to loose his paladinhood over the next few sessions and this is how it’s playing out. Maybe he was never a paladin at all, but something else disguised as one. Or maybe the player had an off day and didn’t really feel up to playing LG that session.
Whatever is going on, it is not your place to police another person’s roleplay. Comment on it in-character if you think your PC cares (“Hey, Pally-guy, for someone who’s supposed to believe in mercy, didn’t you overdo it a bit hitting the rogue”), but don’t chase it out of character.
Torag’s code specifically allows deceiving your enemies. So that part is not a problem.
As to the freeing of the demon lord that sounds like it may be a problem, but without further details I will withhold judgement.
The last instance also does not have enough detail. You specifically state “more or less defenseless” that is too ambiguous to understand what is really going on. Was the rogue still conscious? If so the fact that he is stunned in only temporary. The fact that the rogue dropped his weapon is not that significant because he probably had other weapons he can use. Most rogues probably have several back up weapons they can use. Also did the paladin kill the rogue or just put him unconscious? The rogue had already taken non-lethal damage, so as soon as his HP was less than the amount of non-lethal damage he would be out.
I have to agree with leaving this up to your GM. Players should not tell other players how to run their character. The only one in the group that should do that is the GM and even that should be rare. The decision of if and when a paladin falls is strictly a GM prerogative. On the other hand if the actions of the paladin are something your character would object to because of his own moral code then that is a different story, but that should be done in character.
I believe others have more than adequately covered what does and doesn't make sense from a perspective of following Torag's code and the general code for all Paladins, but I would add an approach from a different angle as a direct address to the original question:
"A Paladin behaves however they choose to behave."
Paladins have codes, and there are consequences for breaking them. At least every code involves an amount of interpretation (this thread alone already has different interpretations of the tenet of Torag's code that permits deception under specific circumstances). However, the Paladin can ultimately choose to do whatever they want. It is then up to the GM to decide whether there are consequences for it.
It's also worth noting that this problem can be on either an in-character or out-of-character level. A character could have a history of treading a thin line, and decisions that seem tenuous may make sense. This issue exists in-character, and is something that could naturally and reasonably be played out, especially if they've been vocal about their status. If a character is instead presented as being an ideal Paladin of their deity, but then proceeds to incessantly break their deity's code, it is difficult to believe that such a person could or would ever have been chosen as a Paladin in the first place; this is then fundamentally an out-of-character issue and should ideally be resolved as such.
During an encounter, the Paladin was killed and his soul subsequently transferred into a clone of a runelord.
Maybe this p*ssed off the player. Getting the PC killed is one thing, but being forced into a different body can easily be perceived as "the GM is messing with me". And some people respond with "what the heck, so I do what I want, too". Hence the attempted deception and the attack on a fellow PC.
If he played much more paladin-like before, this possible explanation gains some weight.
Either way, both the player and the GM should have a talk in private.
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Paladin Morals just dropping this here, the first reply is a really good one.
That out of the way, it does seem quite questionable to play the character the way he is, without further knowledge it does seem out of place.