How do you find pathfinder 2e at high levels? I know a lot of games the math kind of starts to stop working and things take forever, does that happen to pf2e? Do you think pf2e's high level gameplay is fun? Are all the classes roughly equal at higher level play or are there any that really shine or fall off?(just looking at the rules, the fighter doesn't seem to get any fun tricks like rogues, monks, and barbarians do) What are your general thoughts on pf2e's high level gameplay?
The game plays well. The math still works, but with the cornucopia of options players have they do need to know their own mechanics and avoid decision paralysis, which is easier at low levels obviously. Classes are also pretty darn well balanced against each other, though some are harder to use properly.
Fighter tricks come down to their feats. They don't get more interesting inherent abilities because their legendary accuracy is such a powerful boost by itself. But almost all of their feats do interesting tactical things, like fling enemies 20 feet back, bowling them over automatically with a Strike, reflecting rays back at casters, cutting balista bolts from the air, etc. Even by level 8 they can leap 30 feet straight up and knock an enemy out of the air.
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I quite like high level play. It actually feels Epic to me (for example, a monk leaping into the sky to head lock a dragon). Unlike earlier versions of D&D high level play IS actually playable. Its not perfect. Less attention was paid to high level play than to lower level play. But it is much much better than any previous version of D&D
Combats take a little longer because of all the options but still generally last 3-6 rounds or so (no insta-kill, no whoever wins initiative wins),
Classes are still fairly balanced but some rock more than others and the winners/losers are different than at lower levels. Characters who had a build plan from the start will often be considerably better than characters that grew organically. Synthesasia is even more broken than at earlier levels, some legendary skill feats are legendary and some are complete cack. Etc.
Spell casters still get all their "redefine the terms of the battle" utility powers but their direct damage abilities definitely start to fall behind and they definitely shine primarily as support casters and mook killers. Its tough when your to hit is something like 3 or more less than martials (not all casters get convenient access to true strike, and martials get access to it for those times they really need it too). And martials will be stealing SOME of their glory (not all, but some) by actually being able to meaningfully contribute with their skills, by having the ability to fly or go underwater or whatever a few times a day, by having decent spells of their own, etc.
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I'm enjoying it. I play the cleric in a party with a sword & board fighter, rogue and monk. It feels reasonably balanced - each of the martials is doing a good job tearing the enemy apart. The rogue hits nasty, the fighter is chunky and the monk is particularly mobile.
I'm not hitting as hard as them, but I get in some good shots now and then. I like to use one or two serious spells per fight, and the healing is an insurance policy against bad luck. Magic works well as crowd control; just hit everyone with a Divine Wrath and usually at least some of them are seriously debuffed. It's not a precise approach but it can be pretty fun busting out some gratuitous effect like vampiric exsanguination or sunburst. Overall I'd say I'm not as brute force powerful as the martials, but what I add to the party is stability; I can push in a lot of directions depending on what kind of particular enemy we run into.
Part of why it runs smoothly I think is because we did get there level by level; I know my options well because I get a couple of them every level, not all of them at once. I don't know if high level play would go as smoothly if you just started at level 10 or so.
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It runs really well at later levels, in the hands of people who remotely know their characters they will get seriously more powerful though. A level +4 creature is scary at level 5, but by level 15 it feels closer to what a level +2 creature did at level 5.
Magic certainly gains power, but it depends on how you use it. Throw chain lightning against high reflex save foes and you will be outdamaged by the martial, throw it against a mid or low save and you will likely out damage a barbarian even if it is a single target and that barbarian is benefiting from flat-footed.
Something to note is that there simply aren't many single target damage spells in the game. And those that exist tend to have other effects or riders.
I haven't seen anything fall off at later levels, I will say there are a couple of classes you can straight play wrong, build wrong or people pick for the wrong reasons though.
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It does seem to get easier, but I think that's supposed to happen. One of the things people worried about during the playtest was that you'd forever be getting stronger only for enemies to get exactly as much stronger so that in effect, you'd never be making progress. Well, you do make progress in the final version, and that's what makes things a bit easier.
I wouldn't say it's a cakewalk. Rather, I'd say you can do epic adventures where you storm through several encounters to do big missions which you previously couldn't do because you'd be out for the count after each fight.
How do you find pathfinder 2e at high levels?
The game runs better at high level than any previous version of D&D or PF. It maintains balance making the high level game very easy to run, while at the same time providing a sufficient power progression to make the characters feel more powerful. Whereas previous versions of D&D and PF1 had a sort of quadratic increase in power, PF2 sort of moves up like N, N+1, N+3, N+5 where N is level 1-5 with incremental increases in power that lean more in favor of the players as they level. Higher level parties can take on greater challenges, but not so much that the damage multipliers trivialize the game.
I know a lot of games the math kind of starts to stop working and things take forever, does that happen to pf2e?
The math keeps working and the way PF2 is set up, the game still plays fast. There really isn't much pre-buffing or long-term casting set up. Your abilities work on a battle by battle basis. You use them fast and furious.
Do you think pf2e's high level gameplay is fun?
Opinions vary on this. Some of my players miss the high powered play of high level D&D and PF1. Some don't like the design of say high level mooks because it sucks to have trouble taking down some mook solo as a high level player. I think this is more of a design issue than a PF2 issue. If you want a mook to be soloed, you can design that. In general monsters are designed around a 4 person party, so a CR equal mook will stand up quite well to a player solo. So if you were designing mooks to make the player feel like an individual badass, then you would design a Challenge-2 or -3 group of mooks.
I think this feel will get better as adventure designers better understand the mechanics.
Then there is the generic feel of characters. Much of the damage and capability of each character feels pretty set. Everyone gets the same proficiency, same tight math, and there are very minor differences between characters from a math standpoint without much ability to change the match much to make a more powerful character.
In PF2 you will have to accept that the majority of differences are cosmetic. You can build a character to look like any concept you want, but if you're expecting some mathematical advantage from your character design you are going to be disappointed.
Are all the classes roughly equal at higher level play or are there any that really shine or fall off?(just looking at the rules, the fighter doesn't seem to get any fun tricks like rogues, monks, and barbarians do)
Fighter is a power class ideal for multiclassing. You pick a simple fighting style and you get the best single target damage in the game. Stack on a multiclass option like Rogue or Wizard, you suddenly get to add spellcasting power that enhances your already superior accuracy.
Wizard is probably the weakest class in the game because their options are so weak. Your casting will ultimately be similar to other casters. But your focus spell options and main stat isn't well supported feats. Weak build options make for a class that isn't as interesting or fun to build and play. The wizard has no niche and you can pretty much never have one and never notice.
Bard and druid are probably the most versatile and fun caster classes to build. Bards are the clearly the best buff and debuff class. Druids are the best all around caster damage dealers.
Sorcerer builds can be interesting. They are a mixed bag, but you can find some really interesting build concepts in their mix.
Cleric is the ultimate healer. You can build an interesting cleric.
Oracle seems fine. Witch has some ok builds.
Rogue and Ranger are both fun with interesting builds.
Alchemist is an acquired taste, but can be good if you like that style of character.
Investigator I have zero experience with. Conceptually seems cool, but is weak on paper.
Swashbuckler is pretty good at high level.
Barbarian is beastly if all you want to do is rage and hit things.
What are your general thoughts on pf2e's high level gameplay?
Not as fun as PF1 from a player perspective, much more enjoyable to run at high level as a GM. There is definitely far more equity between the GM and players now.
It's no longer a game of players building combat monsters based on poorly written and balanced rules stacked with magic items to counter everything a DM can with an hour of prebuffing for a rocket tag fight that ends in 3 rounds but takes hours to run.
PF2 is fast and furious. Still challenging all the way to 20. If your players can accept the drop in power, I think a more fun game to play at high level, more challenging and better for storytelling.