At 7th level, a shield champion can use a thrown shield to perform a bull rush, dirty trick, disarm, reposition, or trip combat maneuver as if she were making a melee shield bash attack. At 11th level, a shield champion gains Shield Master as a bonus feat. She must meet all prerequisites before selecting that feat.
Shield Slam (Combat)
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 133
In the right position, your shield can be used to send opponents flying.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
There's the mind sword paladin's mind arsenal ability (paladin 2 for a single attack, paladin 6 for a full attack) or the wizard ability it's based on (universalist wizard 1 for a single attack only).
Throwing shields exist. I'm not sure attacks with them are shield bashes exactly though. If they are then you have a simple solution. Similarly with the sharding magic weapon quality.
Gloves of the shortened path (27K gp) allow you to attack in melee from a different square.
There are any number of effects which increase your reach. If you can bash someone from 20' away does that count as range for you?
Reach isn't what I'm looking for.
"Throwing shields exist. I'm not sure attacks with them are shield bashes exactly though. "
It could be read that a throwing shield equals a shield bash eligible for Shield Slam. And that the Shield Champion 7th lvl ability allows combat maneuvers at range. But Shield Slam isn't a combat maneuver using CMB, it's an attack roll with a bull rush attached to it if successful.
So maybe Shield Slam works at range. And Shield Champion 7lvls and allows combat maneuvers at range and Shield Slam isn't technically a combat maneuver as it's using bab attack rolls, not cmb
It could be read that way. Or maybe it's just my wishful thinking
"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See "shield, heavy" on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
So if the shield is made into a throwing shield it's a ranged bludgeoning attack=ranged shield bash and therefore eligible for Shield Slam?
So if the shield is made into a throwing shield it's a ranged bludgeoning attack=ranged shield bash and therefore eligible for Shield Slam?
Yes. Nothing in the rules for shield bash explicitly restricts a shield bash to a melee attack. Shield bash as defined by the rules is simply an attack made using a shield as a weapon. So, yes, using a throwing shield lets you shield slam with a ranged attack.
As for the rest of your post… the shield champions 7th level ability just enables use of combat maneuvers with their throw shield ability. It has no special interaction with the shield slam feat. A shield champion with shield slam gets the free bullrush from shield slam as soon as they take the feat with or without their 7th level ability. Shield slam just requires a shield bash attack, and throw shield performs a shield bash as a ranged attack.
Thanks for the clarification
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Yes. Nothing in the rules for shield bash explicitly restricts a shield bash to a melee attack. Shield bash as defined by the rules is simply an attack made using a shield as a weapon. So, yes, using a throwing shield lets you shield slam with a ranged attack.
I disagree. The shield bash description comes from a time before throwing shields, and while it doesn't say "melee", it refers to the table 6-4, which classifies all shields as melee weapons.
The description of shield bash starts with "You can bash an opponent with a [light/heavy] shield." As common for rules copy-pasted from 3.5, this description is actually a relevant part, and since there is no definition given by the game for what a "bash" is, we have to use the standard English meaning of the word - which is a melee attack.
The Shield Champion Brawler's Throw Shield ability says the thrown shield "deals the same damage as a shield bash" - why not simply call it a ranged shield bash if that's a thing? This archetype is clearly written under the presumption that a shield bash is melee only. Similarly, the Skirnir Magus allows spellstrike and grants a special version of spell storing for use with shield bashs (both of which are normally melee only) without adressing ranged combat, once again showing such a presumption by the writer. And most important, the Throwing shield description doesn't use the term "shield bash" at all.
I think RAW allows ranged shield bashes as Chell Raighn posted.
However, I can see the logic of used by Derklord in inferring against it despite it not being explicit.
There are problems with using that type of logic however.
For example:
Rondelero Flexibility (Ex): At 6th level, as a full-attack action, a rondelero swashbuckler wielding a falcata in one hand and a buckler in the other can alternate between using his falcata and his buckler for each attack. This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two weapon fighting does, and does not cause her to lose his Armor Class bonus from her buckler.
I could infer from reading that ability from Rondelero Swashbuckler that ALL characters cannot alternate between weapons while full attacking. This is incorrect. A character can freely alternate attacks between weapons without penalty. Two weapon fighting penalties come into play when gaining additional attacks through TWFing.
So if I used the same type of logic Derklord used, a Rondelero Swashbuckler (all characters) would be unable to alternate attacks between his two weapons until he achieved 6th lvl. Or for other characters, they'd be unable to do this until they gained this through some other similar ability.
This is clearly incorrect by RAW. Sometimes the writers of these abilities simply make mistakes.
If your GM is cool with ranged shield bashes, then you have quite a few options.
You can enchant your Shield with the Returning enchantment as if it was a weapon. You can also take levels in fighter or an archetype with access to Weapon Mastery for Ricochet Toss. If you're using Path of War rules, Iron Tortoise = the bees knees.
Non-shield options: Ring of the Ram, and Battering Blast-focused Eldritch Archer.
You can also take levels in fighter or an archetype with access to Weapon Mastery for Ricochet Toss.
Fighter isn't actually needed... the Martial Focus feat qualifies as Weapon Training to get Weapon Mastery feats.
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I could infer from reading that ability from Rondelero Swashbuckler that ALL characters cannot alternate between weapons while full attacking.
Quite the opposite: since Rondelero Flexibility clarifies that you cannot alternate between weapons, it is implied that you usually can, otherwise what would have been the point of clarifying it in the first place?
Same with Derklord's example:
The Shield Champion Brawler's Throw Shield ability says the thrown shield "deals the same damage as a shield bash" - why not simply call it a ranged shield bash if that's a thing?
Since the Throw Shield ability clarifies that throwing a shield deals the same damage as a shield bash, it is implied that throwing a shield is not a shield bash, otherwise what would have been the point of clarifying it in the first place?
I believe this is the rationale that Derklord was following. And, for what it's worth, I personally agree with it.
You can also take levels in fighter or an archetype with access to Weapon Mastery for Ricochet Toss.Fighter isn't actually needed... the Martial Focus feat qualifies as Weapon Training to get Weapon Mastery feats.
Yep, that will work too.
I could infer from reading that ability from Rondelero Swashbuckler that ALL characters cannot alternate between weapons while full attacking.Quite the opposite: since Rondelero Flexibility clarifies that you cannot alternate between weapons, it is implied that you usually can, otherwise what would have been the point of clarifying it in the first place?
Or you can look at it as the writer of the archetype made a mistake. If the Rondelero cannot use the buckler as a normal weapon that should have been detailed in the
2nd lvl abilityThe whole purpose of the Rondelero archetype is to facilitate the Rondelero style of using both the falcata and buckler as weapons. The 2nd lvl ability allows the use of bucklers as a normal weapon. It does not add any unneeded restrictions to it. So from 2nd level on the Rondelero can alterate between Falcata and buckler without penalty just as ANY character can alternate between longsword and shield. If the writer was making such a gross departure from standard rules it should have been called out in the 2nd lvl ability.
the 6th lvl Rondelero ability should have simply read "the Rondelero gains Improved Shield bash while wielding the falcata and buckler"
The existing text is poorly written.
I stand by my assertion that writers make mistakes and sometimes that snowballs into rules disagreements.
Yes. Nothing in the rules for shield bash explicitly restricts a shield bash to a melee attack. Shield bash as defined by the rules is simply an attack made using a shield as a weapon. So, yes, using a throwing shield lets you shield slam with a ranged attack.I disagree. The shield bash description comes from a time before throwing shields, and while it doesn't say "melee", it refers to the table 6-4, which classifies all shields as melee weapons.
The description of shield bash starts with "You can bash an opponent with a [light/heavy] shield." As common for rules copy-pasted from 3.5, this description is actually a relevant part, and since there is no definition given by the game for what a "bash" is, we have to use the standard English meaning of the word - which is a melee attack.
One can also infer that when throwing shields were added to pathfinder that because the designers did not clarify that ranged shield bashes are different from melee shield bashes, there is in fact no mechanical difference.
edit:not trying to be overly argumentative here. When I post a question to the rules forum I'm doing so because I want both sides of an argument so I can forward the link to my GM who can then read it and make a ruling
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Or you can look at it as the writer of the archetype made a mistake.
Why would anyone do that? That's literally the last hypothesis you should be testing when inferring a rule from published material, both because of Occam's Razor, and out of respect for the writers, who do this professionally.
Yes, they can make - and have made - mistakes, but you should only come to that conclusion when any other option has been exhausted. In this case, there is a much simpler interpretation that does not involve assuming me to know best that Paizo's authors, which is: throwing shield attacks are not shield slams. So I'll stick with that, thank you very much.
If you're going to be focusing on using a shield like a Capt America/Wonder Woman-esque character, then you should take a look at Equipment Tricks. It has some nifty Shield Tricks.
Or you can look at it as the writer of the archetype made a mistake.Why would anyone do that? That's literally the last hypothesis you should be testing when inferring a rule from published material, both because of Occam's Razor, and out of respect for the writers, who do this professionally.
Yes, they can make - and have made - mistakes, but you should only come to that conclusion when any other option has been exhausted. In this case, there is a much simpler interpretation that does not involve assuming me to know best that Paizo's authors, which is: throwing shield attacks are not shield slams. So I'll stick with that, thank you very much.
And I guess I'll stick with RAW that throwing shields=ranged shield slams, and that the Brawler 7th lvl ability allows for maneuvers at range and that shield slam is not a maneuver as it uses attack rolls not cmb. I'm sticking with that, thank you very much lol
If you're going to be focusing on using a shield like a Capt America/Wonder Woman-esque character, then you should take a look at Equipment Tricks. It has some nifty Shield Tricks.
Thanks those are some interesting options for Martial Flexibility
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And I guess I'll stick with RAW that throwing shields=ranged shield slams
Except for the fact that that's not RAW, because there's no rule actually written that says so. It's an inference, or as often called, RAI, like any other one proposed in this thread, so feel free to pick the one you like the most.
Somehow people like to come in this forum and claim with great voice that their opinion is RAW, as if it was some sort of divine revelation, without realising that, if that was the case, they wouldn't be here asking the question in the first place...
Also, have you noticed how the Shield Trick
Hurl Shield (Throw Anything): You can throw your shield as a ranged improvised weapon. You must be holding (not wearing) your shield to perform this trick. If you are using a throwing shield, there is no reason to use this trick.
doesn't mention shield bash, but only generic ranged attacks, either? Just so you are aware...
And I guess I'll stick with RAW that throwing shields=ranged shield slams, and that the Brawler 7th lvl ability allows for maneuvers at range and that shield slam is not a maneuver as it uses attack rolls not cmb. I'm sticking with that, thank you very much lolOr you can look at it as the writer of the archetype made a mistake.Why would anyone do that? That's literally the last hypothesis you should be testing when inferring a rule from published material, both because of Occam's Razor, and out of respect for the writers, who do this professionally.
Yes, they can make - and have made - mistakes, but you should only come to that conclusion when any other option has been exhausted. In this case, there is a much simpler interpretation that does not involve assuming me to know best that Paizo's authors, which is: throwing shield attacks are not shield slams. So I'll stick with that, thank you very much.
To be fair, I'm with Gray Warden on this. RAW you can finage-lawyer the language to say that ranged Shield Bashes--->Shield Slams are kosher, but RAI this was never meant to be, and you can see that in all of the options that came later that include throwing a shield.
If your GM is fine with it, then that's cool. Personally, I think Martials need some love.
But tbh, I would actually encourage you to house rule a feat: Ranged Shield Bash--- "allows you to perform a shield bash with a thrown shield... if you have the Shield Slam feat, you may also perform a Shield Slam using a Ranged Shield Bash." Or something to that effect. And the reason why is because you will be doing some pretty incredible things with performing 3+ Ranged Bull Rushes per round with your shield ricocheting off walls and multiple enemies (especially once you start pumping up your Bull Rush with items and Greater BR to provoke AoO's on their forced movement). You will be highly reminiscent of Capt America in Winter Soldier when he takes the entire ship by himself in the opening scene, and your DM and other PC's might cry nerf if you're doing this without a feat that backs it up 100% RAW/RAI.
Just imagine the BS meter when/if you enchant that shield with Spell Storing.