Quid's take on things.


Evolutionist Class


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Base proficiencies: Unskilled class, good hitpoints, weak BAB. Gonna need the rest of the class to pull some weight.

Adaptive strike: Needs an accurate name. It's not at all adaptive, because you can't change it. The damage is more or less Solarian - 2 once you get going.

Evolution track: One per turn is nice! It's got the feeling of getting stronger over combat. Hopefully.
EP bonuses by round:
1- Five feet bonus movement, as an enhancement bonus. Half the Operative bonus, two levels early, doesn't scale up. *shrugs*
2- Crit effect. This seems like a "feel bad" ability. If you crit on the first round, you don't get your crit effect. And in many combats, this doesn't provide a benefit, because you need to roll a 20.
3- On the third round of combat, my EP gave to me: a movement bonus when I'm already engaged in combat.
4- +1 AC for making it to the fourth round of combat. This is where we get what feels like an actual bonus.
5- Bonus damage, 1/round! That's nice.
6- +1 Enhancement bonus to all saves? It'll overlap with a ring of resistance, but that's at least +2 on saves. Nice. This is pretty far into the track, though- the big ticket spells tend to get thrown around early.
7- At level 14, this becomes accessible. It's the third or fourth round of combat. If I need the movement, I've bought augmentations instead of waiting for this- wait. I'm sorry, I forgot. This is a bonus to any one type of movement, so by this point, it's probably fly. I still don't care much for this being a perk that depends on getting further into the track, since it's more valuable early in the fight.
8- Another +1 AC. A good finisher.

Movement after the first round doesn't feel good; crit effects after the first round occasionally feel really bad.

Now, I know that there will be more effects later!

Spending EP: Well, here's my pretend-to-be-full-BAB option. For gaining no EP per round, you're full BAB outside of Starship combat. This seems like the Vanguard-esque approach. "Draw" your weapon as a free action is unlikely to come up much, but I don't mind it. Getting a movement speed only in combat isn't going to come up much either, but I hope the class will have out of combat movement options as we go along.

Flexible Skill: Solarian-esque, but weaker early on and better later.

Niche: Covering it later.

Adaptations: Ditto.

Augmented Form: Can this be fit into first level so that characters don't feel the need to wait and get any character-critical augmentations later?

Fulcrum: Make your weapon, a weapon. Is a scaling weapon level going to deactivate fusions? I'd need to go review that again.

Skill Boost: Nice list of options to pick from, and I appreciate the flexibility of changing on level-up.

Weapon Specialization: Yay, some extra damage!

Evolution Drain: Hmm. Spend your turn, getting later-turn benefits… I appreciate the guarantee of one evolution point on a hit, and the chance at sickened. The reactive once-per-mini-rest ability is a very solid improvement, though!

Evolutionary Focus:
Augmentation: This gets a little bit into the weirdness of waiting for discounts, but shouldn't be too bad.
Combat: I know this math stuff is good and all, but I never really care too much.
Packmaster: ??? Will need to look into this once I cover adaptations. I'm concerned about what this being restricted to spending EP means for those adaptations, though… I'm going to want permanent out of combat evolutions!

Accelerated Evolution: Wooo! Now we get to have fun! We can spend EP without stalling out progression on the track.

Evolution Drinker: The upgrade is nice. One-in-three chance to nauseate on hit and failed save? That's pretty nice, actually. I like that.

SO.

Before we get into the niches and adaptations… this is feeling like it could maybe be a full BAB class to me. The 10% discount might make Solarian a little jealous, and it might have to drop some late-level skill points.


The capstones are all a bit dry for a capstone, so I'm skipping them.

Eldritch:
Magitech augmentations. Nooot a lot of those. Species grafts would work, because they can be magitech, but those are listed under the one with biotech, the biggest category. But, we're getting a book of magic stuff first, so I'm gonna withhold my judgment!

Instinct: Spell Resistance. Love lowering it as a reaction! That's a great idea.

Drawback: Ouch. Double-whammy of extra damage and not lowering EP. So in combats without casters, make sure to spend for full-BAB.
Edit: Hold on- do magic weapons count as magical sources? If so, this becomes less oppressive, but expect a lot of arguments.

Spell-Twisting: Bit pricey, but good for boosting the DC of low-level spells. Really disagree with the cap on overcoming spell resistance! Spell Penetration gives a full +2; this shouldn't be capped at +1; if you're spending this much, you should get at least a feat's worth of benefit out of it. The damage type changing option is… *shrugs*, mostly because it seems like a secondary damage type should already be available to the class. You're going to want to go right before them in initiative, to spend down the EP before getting attacked.

Arcane Leap: 1/day 30ft. teleport as a move action? The reaction option is a bit better, but you do have to spend even more EP for it.

Mechanized:
Cybernetics is a nice, large category, with more probably coming in Tech Revolution(?).

Instinct: Yay, damage reduction! Nothing on the first round, but this feels like a fun scaling effect.

Drawback: Some vulnerability. I like this a lot better than Eldritch's confusing and wide-ranging weakness. The 3EP effect is pretty minor, too.

Avenging Burst: Heh, amusing ability. I like that you can hit reach weapon users, and a five-foot-step and shoot ranged attacker.

Rapid Reboot: Terrible…? You're giving up a turn for this? I don't see the point.

Sepulchral
Necrografts- heck yeah! This is a great category, because they all have upgrades to get a discount on if you go with Augmentation focus.
Edit: Necrografts can also be made from cybernetics and biotech, and come with a discount. Very nice!

Instinct: Nice! Bonus damage against living targets. I like this one.

Drawback: Okay, this is flavorful. I love this! There's even an an option to spend actions/EPs wastefully if you need to keep somebody alive. The 3EP effect seems pretty balanced.

Grim Harvest: Love it. Not going to come up every fight, but stylish.

Spectral Step: 1/day combat-only incorporeal flight with aggressively scaling cost? Why do these classes keep locking abilities that could be interesting behind "must be in combat"… :/

Vital:
Biotech and Species Grafts: Whoa. That's… basically everything, with adaptive biochains. That wouldn't be a discount on cybernetics, unless you take Augmentation focus. Also, species grafts can be any type, so it seems weird to restrict them like this. They'd be a good way to have something available to everybody, although I get that they're more thematic here.

Instinct: Bonus healing. Hmm. It's not super common, but interesting I guess? Hopefully has a minor drawback.

Drawback: … Ouch. Penalty on the worst save. I guess this is a reverse of Eldritch, where spending down against casters is important.

Biotic Integration: Okay, here we go! This really boosts the Instinct.

Adrenaline Rush: Should this be an enhancement bonus to AC? It doesn't stack with the 4EP base instinct bonus. It's a 1/day ability that lasts for one round; I feel like it should probably stack.

Bonus!: This one does have a cool capstone.

So… there's a balancing act here. At a glance, though, it's really starting more at 11th, when you can afford to both "have full BAB" and "make a choice about whether to increase EP".

I don't feel like this makes a very big push on 3/4 BAB vs. full BAB, though. The penalties all scale with level and EP, and the benefits all scale with EP and get better EP scaling with level. It's… interesting. I don't really know how that feels in play. But it does feel like a lot of these have more penalty than benefit, especially since you get a big penalty for just one EP, and a only a small benefit.

I dunno.

Also, I wish there were more than an augmentation discount to represent turning into your respective thing outside combat.


Adaptations!

I am… really bummed.

I'm sorry, devs. This is just very far from what I was hoping for from the class description.

Every adaptation is combat-only. I can't evolve a climb speed or swim speed or grow wings or see in the dark or gain protection against exposure to vacuum or withstand radiation or grow more arms or change shape or temporarily borrow a fellow PC's racial ability or grow a sentient tumor or assimilate technology or engulf people or make a phylactery or do anything unique to the class outside of a fight.


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QuidEst wrote:

Adaptations!

I am… really bummed.

I'm sorry, devs. This is just very far from what I was hoping for from the class description.

Every adaptation is combat-only. I can't evolve a climb speed or swim speed or grow wings or see in the dark or gain protection against exposure to vacuum or withstand radiation or grow more arms or change shape or temporarily borrow a fellow PC's racial ability or grow a sentient tumor or assimilate technology or engulf people or make a phylactery or do anything unique to the class outside of a fight.

When you list the options like that I see the problem - they're all fairly cheap augmentation options already, just buy them.

PC racial abilities are of course available via the Polymorph spell, as are extra arms, changed shapes, seeing the dark, fly/swim/climb, I'd really have liked to see that integrated into the class in a better way than the Envoy option. I continue to be disappointed that the Biohacker doesn't have a "create free Polymorphic serum" theorem.


Xenocrat wrote:

When you list the options like that I see the problem - they're all fairly cheap augmentation options already, just buy them.

PC racial abilities are of course available via the Polymorph spell, as are extra arms, changed shapes, seeing the dark, fly/swim/climb, I'd really have liked to see that integrated into the class in a better way than the Envoy option. I continue to be disappointed that the Biohacker doesn't have a "create free Polymorphic serum" theorem.

I'm mostly listing those off because they're things that are available in the game. Operative gets darkvision as an option, even though that's an augmentation, and it's really useful to be able to take it as an exploit instead.

If it's an issue, make it more like the Nanocyte, with a pool of low level augmentations that you can switch between, without worrying about stacking on top of any augmentations you've purchased.


Where does it say that Spectral Step is 1/day?
still expensive to use either way.

Edit: also Arcane Leap


CookieLord wrote:

Where does it say that Spectral Step is 1/day?

still expensive to use either way.

Edit: also Arcane Leap

Quote:
10th Level: Your transformation has reached an important milestone, giving you an ability you can use once per day.

It's hidden up in the Niche(Su) section, so a lot of people are going to miss it and assume they've got at-will 30ft. teleports. (Which, considering it's line of effect, not just line of sight, wouldn't be very unreasonable.)


thanks i missed that


i guess the point in Spectral step is as an escape option?


CookieLord wrote:
i guess the point in Spectral step is as an escape option?

My issue is not that it's not useful, it's that it's not interesting. It's tied to EP, which is tied to combat.

When I read about Evolutionist, I thought that the undead path would mean becoming more like the undead, possibly including something like eventually getting a pseudo-phylactery.


CookieLord wrote:
i guess the point in Spectral step is as an escape option?

Also infiltration, you can bypass walls and run deeper into a compound while it's active.


Xenocrat wrote:
CookieLord wrote:
i guess the point in Spectral step is as an escape option?
Also infiltration, you can bypass walls and run deeper into a compound while it's active.

It would require you to have EP to spend. While EP doesn't explicitly clear at the end of combat, the general consensus is that is probably an oversight. Either way you've either got to be in combat to start your infiltration, or pick a fight with a significant guard to build up EP for your infiltration; neither of which really feels much like "infiltration".


QuidEst wrote:
If it's an issue, make it more like the Nanocyte, with a pool of low level augmentations that you can switch between, without worrying about stacking on top of any augmentations you've purchased.

Agreed, that would have been an interesting and thematic way to go about this.

Mind, the most sensical way to do that would be using evolution points in some manner, which would make that even more complex. As it is, I've resigned myself to making a graphic where I can print it out and move a coin up and down to track my evolution points as combat progresses to see what bonuses and penalties I have at the moment.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
If it's an issue, make it more like the Nanocyte, with a pool of low level augmentations that you can switch between, without worrying about stacking on top of any augmentations you've purchased.

Agreed, that would have been an interesting and thematic way to go about this.

Mind, the most sensical way to do that would be using evolution points in some manner, which would make that even more complex. As it is, I've resigned myself to making a graphic where I can print it out and move a coin up and down to track my evolution points as combat progresses to see what bonuses and penalties I have at the moment.

I'd really rather not have it tied to a combat-generated resource. Trying to survive an environmental hazard with your allies? I'm afraid you didn't punch enough people today to improve your lungs!


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QuidEst wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
If it's an issue, make it more like the Nanocyte, with a pool of low level augmentations that you can switch between, without worrying about stacking on top of any augmentations you've purchased.

Agreed, that would have been an interesting and thematic way to go about this.

Mind, the most sensical way to do that would be using evolution points in some manner, which would make that even more complex. As it is, I've resigned myself to making a graphic where I can print it out and move a coin up and down to track my evolution points as combat progresses to see what bonuses and penalties I have at the moment.

I'd really rather not have it tied to a combat-generated resource. Trying to survive an environmental hazard with your allies? I'm afraid you didn't punch enough people today to improve your lungs!

Honestly, a hundred times this. People like to roll dice and hit things, but right now I'm missing where there's any part of this class outside of initiative order. I don't think we need another class where people can check out of the game session when the option to say 'i attack' isn't on the table.


*cracks knuckles*
I don't know if I'll get to play this during the playtest, but let's go ahead and put together a build.

I had initially hoped that this would let me play a more undead character for my Eoxian, but this doesn't have any options to enhance a Varculak and the character benefits more from Operative's skills and knife use. So, original concept time.

Going Sepulchral, as that's the one that seems like the most fun. What's going to be interesting… I like Embri, but I just can't see a fit. How about Shirren Sensate, with an obsession with feeding on different races; the save represents resisting to do so in combat. Adaptive Strike should naturally be a horrifying maw of some sort. I'm 3/4 BAB, so I need to resolve against EAC, and the most fitting energy type is acid. There's our basic concept.

Theme
Sensate. We'll be getting "roll twice on Diplomacy 2/day" as our main feature, representing being weirdly persuasive about the obsession.

Race
Shirren. We need Str for our melee damage and accuracy, and Dex because we're a martial class with light armor. Intelligence tertiary for a focus on Life Science Culture, because we can't get a skill bonus to Life Science. Guess we're going full cannibal! Worker gives us Str and Dex, with Cha for a penalty. 18 Str, 16 Dex, 11 Con, 8 Cha. Cultural Fascination covers our weak Cha on Diplomacy. Communalism gives us a little edge on one skill check per day.

Class
Adaptive Strike: Melee, acid.
Flexible Skill: So… Life Science isn't a class skill for us, but neither is Diplomacy. We'll go with Diplomacy.
Niche: Sepulchral

Level 1
Skills: Culture, Diplomacy, Stealth, … I don't really care about Mysticism. I'm not here because of a fascination with undead; the class doesn't give me anything "more" undead. Athletics for the fourth skill.
Feat: Weapon Focus (Adaptive Strike)
Gear: No point in starting the game with any necrografts, because the discount doesn't hit until next level. We'll need a backup pistol of some kind, and good armor. Freebooter Armor and a Tactical Skipshot Pistol, plus assorted first-level gear.

First level overall:
Five foot boost in combat to close in on the enemy, get +1 damage. Decent damage and AC, poor BAB costs us our feat for the level. It is cool to be able to grow a scary acid-dripping maw, but we could reflavor Vanguard. Grim Harvest doesn't do anything at this level, so we don't start out with our signature ability. In exchange for +5 ft. movement and +1 damage, we need to save vs. waste our standard action when we kill somebody.

Out of combat, we've got nothing. Four skills from a very short class skill list with one flex pick, and a martial combatant frame. Our concept isn't doing our stats a big favor by demanding melee. We're a Soldier with Diplomacy as a class skill instead of +4 initiative.

Starship combat. Piloting, Engineering, Computers… none of them are class skills. We don't have BAB for gunner. The only relevant class skill is Intimidate-only captaining. I guess Science or Magic Officer, based on what Niche you take?

LEVEL UP!
Augmented Form: Time to go take a shopping break and get mods installed. This doesn't feel right. :/ I'd like to grow this stuff, and I'd like to be able to start out with it.

Fulcrum: I dunno how I'm handling this increasing in level, but I might use this for a crit effect instead of EP.

Evolutionist Adaptations: Resistant Form is the only thing here of any use that fits, but it's fun. Ocular Advantage is no good on the darkvision front because it's not permanent, and you need light for out of combat anyway. Invert Form seems absurdly expensive. Versatile Strikes can only switch to unthematic energy types, not to a thematic physical attack. Distant Strikes for an even bigger jaw sounds like the best remaining option for 4th, or Resistant Form a second time. I'd want to trade both of these out for an archetype, though. The following archetypes would be preferable: Augmented, Battle Leader, Commando (4th), Divine Champion of Oras, Espionage Specialist (4th), Kalistocrat, Mediator, Medic, Phrenic Adept, Starfinder Forerunner, Stewards Infiltrator.

The problem is, almost any permanent benefit, in and/or out of combat is preferable to a short duration combat-only option that requires spending EP on something other than BAB. I've already got things to spend EP on. I could take an option so I can spend something to get resistance 3 for three rounds. OR, I could make Culture work to ID alien lifeforms, resolving the fact that I won't be able to get my scaling class bonus to the skill I want AND I'll be able to demoralize people using Diplomacy by cheerfully chatting about what I think their soul might taste like AND I get an extra language known AND I get Diplomacy as a class skill, so I can free up the class skill selection at first level.

Initially, I did think things were worse, and Resistant Form was just one energy type. Having three means being able to cover a few scenarios. It doesn't do much for this concept, but it's more useful.

I do get Grim Harvest at this level.

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