Is Arithmancy stupid?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Maybe I still haven't played enough min/max spellcasters to fully appreciate the value of +1 CL... but for a feat, a swift action, and all the extra work of finding primes (or whatever)... to me, this seems like possibly the dumbest d@mn thing.

I want it. Lol.

And Sacred Geometry... charts and tables, enigma machines and crackerjack box decoder rings...

It just seems like it would be fun. And your turn would essentially never end. You would always be doing the next turns calculations and pre-rolling loads of dice to be ready by the time it comes back to you.

Do GM's check math on this sort of BS, or is this on an honor system for the sake of time?

Is it even worth the swift action? Or the feat? Or the work/time?


Oh boy, you reminded me of some type of feat i never wanted to think about again...

I remember reading bunches of threads about it and the bottom line was that it was stupidly overpowered while also being very annoying for your fellow gamers.

As for is it worth it? Well that's depend.
It's very powerful, but can you manage to use the feat without killing your fun and boring your friend to death?

Now the real question is: When will we get a feat that gives us a extra +1 physical fitness bonus to attack for each push-up we do?


Like I said, I don't fully understand the power of it.

+1 CL... range, duration, damage, SR check, Dispel check... right?

Is that extra 10' to the range or extra D6 to the damage really worth your swift action and a feat?

There's an ioun stone that will do that casually floating around your head, no action or feat required... and no math.

Raising your CL doesn't affect the spell's DC, or give you access to spells of a level you are otherwise unable to cast... most combats last like 5 rounds so increasing duration will have a limited effect on most encounters. Most encounters happen within' a 100' radius, so the extra range is a highly situational benefit. Honestly, an extra D6 of damage isn't worth a feat for a spellcaster... there are far scarier things than damage, and for those things you want DC boosts not CL.

But the charts/tables seems fun to flip through, really roleplay it up. Make one of those circular slide rulers that you spin different layers in different directions to align some mysterious result. Bring an abacus and say "hmm" a lot.


Sacred Geometry is totally an honor system thing. There's no way I'm going to monitor all those rolls and check your math each time.


My bad, i was talking about Sacred Geometry, which is busted and unfun for the rest of your table unless you're really quick at math.

Arithmancy looks... gimicky. I'd said as far as power level go, on the surface it looks fine. Digital root can't exceed nine, so the DC would never raise higher than 19+spell level, which isn't too bad for int-based spell caster.

As far as calculating digital root, it's pretty easy, but converting each letter in a spell name into numbers then adding them up seems time consuming, i wouldn't allow a player to use that feat without prior preparation.

Is it an honor system? Depends on the DM. I wouldn't personnaly be willing to check every spell, but i might check some if i become suspicious. Then again, the DC can never be higher than 19+spell level.

Edit: I just noticed ''Spell Focus(Divination)'' as a prerequisite, that's a pretty bad feat taxe, so i'm not sure it's really worth it. Then again, +1 extra caster level is kinda neat for a lot of spell.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Sacred Geometry is totally an honor system thing. There's no way I'm going to monitor all those rolls and check your math each time.

I like how it's left up to the honor of the person who is clearly cheating, because non-cheaters don't take cheater feats. Lol.

I am going to take this feat, one of my precious few feats, and I am going to do this extra work (or at least say I am doing this extra work) to completely abuse an already powerful magical system. I could just take two metamagic feats and apply them like everyone else, but I don't want to actually have to know the metamagic feats I am going to use, and I don't actually want applying them to cost me anything extra.

Sounds legit, I trust you...

Don't get me wrong, I don't play with people I feel the need to double check. I don't check your attack rolls, your saves, your crit confirms... why would I volunteer to grade elementary math homework every turn?

From a players' standpoint, it just seems fun. Flipping through your rolodex of spell primes or whatever, roll some side dice, flip some beads on the abacus, twirl an imaginary handlebar mustache or pull on a beard that isn't actually there...


Like, you would have a list with all your spells known/prepared, and all their respective digital roots for Arithmancy. Probably list the required Spellcraft check DC, as well.

Then, you would have your list of Sacred Geometry choices, and their respective Prime Constants.

Now pre-roll 10 Spellcraft checks and 10 Prime Constant checks (rolling a number of D6 equal to your ranks in Know Engineering). Apply these rolls in order as the checks are needed.

Start pre-rolling another list of 10 checks of each type before you are done with your first list... roleplay this in the most spectacular fashion possible with much props and fanfare


For Arithmancy, pre-preparation is necessary and it works well. If all the prep-work is done, then it adds one extra dice roll in a character's turn, which is 100% fine. Technically, someone could make a list for all existing spell listing their digital root, or they could make a program to calculate it.

Funnily enough, spells in different language have different digital root. Fireball has a digital root of 2, but ''Boule de Feu'' has a digital root of 6. I guess french wizard are gonna be sad lol.

Sacred Geometry on the other hand should not be pre-rolled as the feat incorporate elements of failure and i wouldn't allow someone to pre-emptively know if their action will succeed or fail. (I personnally wouldn't allow the feat at all to be completely honest it's disruptive and busted.).

Not gonna lie, i honestly think these feats are kinda cool, they provide flavor while also incorporating mechanic to make you feel that flavor. Just like Foresight Wizard is cool because mechanically you can actually predict the future of your turn. The real problem is that they are actually disruptive.


arithmancy feat(gnrl)
Clearly the players needs to write all the DC checks next to the name of the spell. The numerology has less effect after 5th level but it's a silly method to figure a slight CL randomness into the game.

sacred geometry feat(gnrl).... LoL... if you use the 5-second rule then there are going to be a LOT of wasted actions. While interesting this is just going to involve a lot of time trying to twiddle with calculations effectively causing a 2-3 round delay while the player figures out a workable polynomial function. The process can be hacked if your player has the math skills and within a few seconds will know what the roll is good for.


The players at my table pre-roll lots of things, and they have played true thusfar... I would have no reason not to trust them to pre-roll Sacred Geometry checks.

The TWF and archer both pre-rolled their attacks, and damage for each attack... they both still missed from time to time, and declared their misses as misses.

I don't know why they wouldn't declare their epic spell fart just the same...

I'ma gunna add some epic-ness to this here Fireball, just watch... but instead my hand bursts into pink sparkling flames and I start frantically dancing in circles shaking my hand making lots of "ah's" and "ooo's"... or however you explain your own magic failing to meet your own expectations.

Yeah, whether it works or not, it probably is a distraction either way. Lol.


My problem with rolling ahead is time.
It allows too much time (days) for calculation of likely formulas.

As we're in general discussion. I'd rework the process for sacred geometry in a home game just making it a Know(Numerology) check for -1 to metamagic cost as a move action, +1 DC if root in arithmancy < 4, -1 DC if arithmancy root > 6 . Far quicker and easier.


Oh, I was thinking that you already choose the spell and any metamagics you want to apply to, factor its prime constants, and that number is specific to that spell/metamagic combination... as if you had prepared the spell with metamagics applied.

Your pre-rolls go in the order you rolled them, and the spell you need is the spell you need... maybe I am too trusting, but it seems like knowing that Sacred Geometry is going to fail doesn't change the fact that right now you need that spell and those metamagics... sure, you could just choose something else, pretend you were never going to use Sacred Geometry at all this turn... but I don't play with "those people".

As an archer (well, crossbowman) in a buddy's 5e campaign, I pre-roll my attacks and damage. Honestly, missing is the best part, for me. Probably because it so rarely happens, but I enjoy explaining the surprise on my own face. I enjoy getting spooked by the mounted knucklehead trout and shooting it instead of the bad guy. I missed because there was a fire and I was trying to save it from a baby...

It's something different than 36 damage to this guy, is he dead? 27 more damage to the same guy, is he dead?

People who take themselves so seriously that they can't waste a spell knowing it is a failure from the start probably need to do more drugs, lighten up... something. Don't take life so seriously, or you'll never get out alive. The players at my table explaining their own failures have been some of the absolute funniest things I have ever heard pretaining to tabletop gaming.


In the old Sacred Geometry Threads, someone made a calculator to do it more quickly and another person showed after you have enough ranks, you're always guaranteed a success. So yeah, it's ludicrously powerful. Free Metamagic? Sure!


Scavion wrote:
In the old Sacred Geometry Threads, someone made a calculator to do it more quickly and another person showed after you have enough ranks, you're always guaranteed a success. So yeah, it's ludicrously powerful. Free Metamagic? Sure!

I remember seeing/reading that... it wasn't even very many required to all but guarantee success. I think even 5 ranks was enough to get you there pretty consistently... and I think 8 ranks was about the point you can pretty much stop rolling altogether.


Scavion wrote:
In the old Sacred Geometry Threads, someone made a calculator to do it more quickly and another person showed after you have enough ranks, you're always guaranteed a success. So yeah, it's ludicrously powerful. Free Metamagic? Sure!

I'd have to agree though I didn't use that method. It's free (highest castable spell level - actual spell level) to +1 metamagic and the formula would be known. There would be rare rolls that just didn't work.


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Arithmancy is indeed stupid, in that the DC to get the extra +1 is entirely arbitrary and always the same for a given spell; it will necessarily be somewhere from 1-9 (plus 10+SL), and evenly distributed. And some spells will always be 10+SL+1 while others will always be 10+SL+9.

So to take the stupidity out of it, the DC might as well be the average, to wit 15+SL.

Whether that's worth a swift action and a feat (and a feat tax) obviously depends on the spell, your Spellcraft skill and what uses you have for a swift action.

And Sacred Geometry is pretty simple, once you realise that adding 0 or multiplying by 1 allows you to ignore any dice you want, and getting 0 or 1 from a couple of dice of your choice is almost always possible. But it's a stupid rule for an entirely different reason, in that it depends on the player's mathematical ability but not that of the PC. It makes about as much sense as letting the fighter confirm a crit if he can translate the number on the d20 into Greek.


I think the only time I would actually check someone's rolls/math on this is if they were nailing it every time. Because if you are, you're either Einstein or cheating, tbh.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
I think the only time I would actually check someone's rolls/math on this is if they were nailing it every time. Because if you are, you're either Einstein or cheating, tbh.

Not really, as other have pointed out, at one point you get so many dice result that it becomes harder to fail reaching one of the three prime constant than rolling natural one. If you can understand basic mathematical operations, it's very hard to screw up. It just takes a bit of time to calculate. Which is why it's a broken feat, it's two free metamagic feat with an incredibly minor chance of failing.

I mean, even if you'd only get even numbers, you can divide two of the same numbers to create a 1, then add it to any number you need to then reach a prime number. I don't have any mathematical proof or anything, but after a few experimentation, it only seems possible to miss if you roll way too low on each of your dice.

Edit: Actually after a bit of testing, i realized that sacred Geometry is actually not that long for me to use, i was able to realize operation in less than 15 second multiple time so... Not as disruptive as i though. It's still overpowered as hell though. I tried with 8 dice, then 11 dice, casting 4th level and 6th level spell respectively, and never failed once in 20 attempts. The fact that the spell allow parenthesis makes it so you can basically cancel any leftover dice by multiplying them by a 0 you create. Waaaaaaay too easy for the power it gives you.


Yeah, I tried it a while ago in case someone took it in my Kingmaker campaign. The thread I read on here or reddit had said 5 ranks and 8 ranks... and 5 is probably the earliest you could have the spell slots available to mess with metamagics, anyways.

Without spending any more time than it takes to roll a Dazzling Display Intimidate check, see the results of nearby combatants, and retaliate with Hurtful... I could usually calculate a success well over half the time. With only 5 ranks/dice.

When I was messing with 8 dice, I gave up trying to fail... lost count of how many relatively rudimentary successes I achieved. It is definitely something I could have ready in the run-up to my Initiative order, and could have ready between turns if I was in the habit of going first.

I would imagine that with 10 dice, it's a guaranteed success every time.

So, if Arithmancy is always going to be between DC 12 and DC 18, we can essentially guarantee that. Roll Spellcraft... did you beat an 18? Hmm, looks like 8 ranks all but guarantees a success with this, too.

At level 9, if Spellcraft and Know Engineering have max ranks, both Arithmancy and Sacred Geometry can be written off as foregone conclusions... assuming you can handle elementary level math. Broken?

Probably, I guess... it's magic in a fantasy game, so it's impossible to make sense of anyways. Think of it as UnChained Magics.

I would love to see someone play it up. Tell me about the Dr Strange-style geometric glyphs appearing in the air as you modify a spell with Sacred Geometry. Draw shapes on flashcards and tell me which metamagic feats belong to which geometric pattern... then just hold it up when you are casting a spell... have an actual spellbook with the spell's digital roots written next to the name, bring an actual calculator and just randomly mash buttons and chew on a pencil... I would love it, all of it.

Sure, blow up my monsters with ridiculous cluster bombs, and Persistent Cherry Blossom spells... that was awesome. What a fabulous display of wizardry! If you play it up, I will probably let you play it.

I look forward to equipping enemies with these in the future...


VoodistMonk wrote:
So, if Arithmancy is always going to be between DC 12 and DC 18, we can essentially guarantee that. Roll Spellcraft... did you beat an 18? Hmm, looks like 8 ranks all but guarantees a success with this, too.

I'm confused, how are you getting at DC 12 to 18? The DC should be 10+ spell level + 1 to 9.


Unless I am missing something...

10 + 1st level spell + 1 = 12
10 + 9th level spell + 9 = 18

I guess it could also be 10 + 1 + 9, so 20 tops... oh no. Still mostly trivial.


VoodistMonk wrote:
10 + 9th level spell + 9 = 18

Wouldn't that be 28?


I am an idiot... and here we are discussing the ability to do elementary level maths. Lol.

I am clearly too high, or not high enough, or distracted, or something... that was 100% my bad.


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Lol! No worries, that's 100% the kind of mistake i'd do all the time!

Still, i agree with your conclusion, the DC gets trivial as you level up. DC 21 at 3rd level is rough, but since you know what kind of DC you have to hit in advance, then you can decide not to take the chance.

Although i found anything caveat that i missed while rereading the feat :

Arithmancy wrote:
You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to the number of caster levels you possess. ''

That makes it significantly worse. I'm not sure it's worth it...

As an added bonus, I've decided to check for Dispel magic digital roots, and if i didn't make any mistake it would be 8, which is a bummer cause i feel like it's probably one of the best use of the feat.

Pretty funny, cause Greater Dispel magic has a digital root of 1, lol. Which means the DC for Dispel magic(21) is higher than the DC for Greater Dispel magic (17).


Arithmancy:
I already have a spellbook, which is to say a printed-out table of spells with their effects and stuff listed. It's useful to the point of being necessary. Arithmancy would just add one box at the top to tally how many times I'd used it, and one very narrow column (heading A, digit 1-9 for each spell), and then it'd just be a spellcraft check for free +1 CL. If I can take ten, that's not even going to be a dice roll.

Is it worth it? IDK, it's always been banned in games I've been in. It's absolutely useless on armoured casters using Arcane Armour Training, because they also use a swift action. But for a pure caster it seems like a cheap way to get +1 CL. Okay, use-limited, but that's no bother. Getting +1 CL is consistently okay on damage spells, but I think it really shines on non-damaging stuff where an extra CL boosts the effect, like Resist Energy or Greater Magic Weapon.

Sacred Geometry:
The big problem with this feat is that some people are too good at mental arithmetic (like me! I am distressingly good at mental arithmetic), and will basically never fail if we have five or six dice to play with. So the question changes from "would you like a complicated feat with a risk of failure" to "would you like one or two free metamagics to every spell where they apply, at the cost of one feat, five or six skill ranks, and using your move action". Which... is too good. I mean, metamgics are a feat each, and free metamagics are an overpowered feat that's only available at level 15.

But yes, it would be fun :) Until everyone else metaphorically slapped me for taking the mickey.


I'll mention that you can't use zero(0) as that's not defined in the methodology. Secondly it represents nothing and THAT introduces a philosophical problem. Empty set or {} would be even worse.

some down-the-rabbit-hole topics

Numerological Pythagorean Arithmancy

Sacred Geometry

An attempt to fix it is in the thread Sacred Geometry 2014 but it's still clunky and overpowered.
Personally, I think both need to be fixed and just award 1 then 2 off known metamagic costs as a feat tree (parent-child dependency) with some interaction exclusions (looking at you Magical Lineage, Wayang Spellhunter).


Sorry to bother this after a year, but what's the conclusion - stupid or not?


Stupid. Depending on your definition of stupid. ie, stupid rules, possibly an OK feat to take.

Liberty's Edge

For Sacred geometry the idea of magic linked to geometry is interesting, but the implementation is terrible.
I have completely redone it and made it a feat to select locations and structures in which to cast long or ritual spells with added effects.

For example, the spellcaster/architect could build a pyramid in a specific location, with a specific orientation and proportions, and be able to make some spells permanent in one o more chambers.
Or make a Stonehenge-like structure that allows casting spells with added metamagic effect at specific dates.

Mostly stuff for NPCs.

Arithmancy is one of several ways to increase your caster level. It requires preparation and two feats, but it isn't intrinsically stupid.


Uhm, I concluded that math is not too useful, neither in-game nor in real life - my math lessons are just terrifying me, and I need help. I don't want to think about algebra for my castle's level.

Liberty's Edge

RandyJewett wrote:
Arithmancy has some effects, but it is not as good and effective as I have expected. I mean, I don't see some considerable changes for my castle. Besides, I can change your opinion about math in real life; try https://plainmath.net/secondary/statistics-and-probability/high-school-prob ability to improve your lessons' success. It offers arithmancy, algebra, geometry, and high school probability questions and answers. I was not too fond of themes and problems about statistics and probability, but I couldn't get that I was using the wrong sources. I have gotten away a little from the topic, so I want to assert I don't recommend using math in Paizo; however, real-life mathematics is worth your attention.

A bit of knowledge about statistics help.

As an example, if you do the math, you will realize that it is worth it to use Power attack. Depending on your attack value and damage output there are at worst a couple of AC values that make it convenient not to use it, and you can pre-calculate what they are.

I have seen people refraining from using power attack because "I will hit less often", but when you increase your total damage output by a larger margin than the decrease in hit chances it is worth it.

Eyeballing it is more fun, but a bit of math to know that it is convenient ease the doubs.


Roy said it before :
"he'd be a pretty good warrior if he had a better head for numbers"


PatriciaWilliams wrote:
Sorry to bother this after a year, but what's the conclusion - stupid or not?

One year later.

Conclusion;

Arithmancy: Definetly stupid feats DC are inconsistent with spell level.

Sacred Geometry: Also stupid feat, it add unnecessary math to the game.


I'm a big fan of minimizing the amount of time spent on turns during combat, so I will usually go down the initiative order and at the start of each mook or PC's turn I'll say "Aliza, its your turn, Ragnar, you're on deck, and the Skeleton3 is in the hole" ----> "okay Aliza your turn is over, Ragnar it's your turn, Skeleton3 is on deck, and Yuriel is in the hole", -----> "Ragnar your turn is over, it's Skeleton3's turn, Yuriel is on deck, and BBEG Necromancer is in the hole," -----> "Skeleton3 is going to attack Ragnar with 21 to hit and 18 to hit, okay miss on both, Yuriel it's your turn, BBEG Necromancer is on deck, Thaelyss you're in the hole". This helps the PC's stay on task in combat and think about what they're going to do on their turn and how far exactly their turn is away from right now.

I'd say you as the PC should already have your target(s) identified and be pre-rolling your Arithmancy and Sacred Geometry while you're "in the hole" and "on deck", that way when your turn comes up, you can just say "I cast xxxxxxx, DC is 24, and I'm casting on Skeleton3 and BBEG Necromancer for 31 damage Reflex for half". Or whatever. After about 4-5 sessions of you getting used to this math-intensive character, I'm going to ask that you keep your turn to 3 minutes or less, and if it gets out of hand, then we'll have a storyline-appropriate exit for your character and they can "pseudo-retire" to pursue something in your backstory, or rocks fall and you can reroll :P

I completely understand that combat can shift instantly on a single bad guy's turn, so if you change your mind about what you want to cast, do it as quick as possible. But if your turns are consistently taking 5-10 minutes, I'd say that's a good indicator that the character should be retired.

Edit: I'd even help you find a dice-rolling website/app and help you create an Excel Spreadsheet that could do all of these calculations for you if that would help speed things along.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Just make the casting time component non-adjustable, a mandatory full-round action for adding one Meta, two rounds for adding two.

Now the feat is about casting spells slowly for maximal effect, with a playful math aspect to it as you build up your power and let loose.

If no Quicken is allowed, it's now a time vs power argument, not a tossing dice and slowing the game down argument.

==Aelryinth

The Exchange

PatriciaWilliams wrote:
Sorry to bother this after a year, but what's the conclusion - stupid or not?

Arithmancy - Stupid because it's likely an automatic +1. Hey 9th level wizard, do you have a Spellcraft of +23 yet? Even at lower levels you can figure out the digital roots of your known/prepared spells ahead of time and only use it on the ones guaranteed to succeed. Or can really slow down the game (I'm going to use my bonded item to cast control summoned creature. Give me a few minutes to do the translations).

Sacred Geometry - Stupid because by about 5 ranks it becomes very unlikely to fail and getting to a correct answer can take a long time. Far worse than Arithmancy because at least with Arithmancy a conscientious gamer will have written down the digital root of all his prepared/known spells ahead of time. Even if you are using a tool to do the math for you, go back to "very unlikely to fail" for how Sacred Geometry is just too good.

I get what the author was trying to do, putting in that flavor of numericalogical conspiracy theories (back when conspiracy theories were fun) but it ended up, if you stripped away the setting, being a bunch of math for a nearly foregone conclusion. And once you realized results were near guaranteed these were clearly stronger choices for PCs than other feats.


see Arithmancy - Azothath's fix


My fix is to give these feats to enemy NPC's... the extra nonsense could be explained as Dr Strange geometric glowing glyphs showing up around "enemy mage 2" or whatever... failure could be rolled on magical mishaps tables or even primal magic events. All that preparation can be done before the encounter, listed in the enemy's stat block or random encounter notes. Let 'em go out with a bang...


Azothath's Homebrew: Sacred Geometry fixed

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