And then I think the universes collide...Is this a fan theory, or has Marvel said this is what's going to happen?
We've seen clips in the trailers where the different characters are interacting. EX: Party Thor with Evil Dr. Strange in Zombie World. Plus that Alternate Avengers circle pan showing them all.
They haven't said it out right but there are a lot of hints pointing at a multiverse Teamup.
Yeah I think we're get it. But my thought is kind of out there (even for What if)...What if Uatu interfered....
Ahem
*taps the mic*
Uatu interferes constantly. Being bad at being just an observer and getting attached to the beings throughout the myriad possible Earths is kind of his thing. He is invested in the lives of many, but none so much as the Richards’ family of Earth 616
This concludes my Ted Talk.
There's interfering...and then there's actually doing actively taking people to do things...
If things are going the way I think they are, I gotta ask
Can Captain Carter pick up Thor's Hammer?
I expect if they want her to be able to for plot reasons, she could. I mean, I personally think Captain Carter* is "worthy," but what "worthy" means is awfully subjective. Party Thor should not have been worthy, as he was decidedly far more irresponsible than Thor at the beginning of his first movie, but somehow he could still use Mjollnir. I think the only reason the writers decided he could is because they thought it would make the fight cooler (and more equal) if he had it while fighting Captain Marvel. And in general What If!? (to an extent, understandably, since it is all supposed to be a "what if?" scenario) seems to govern its plot developments based on rule of cool more than strictly following in-universe rules of how things have been established to work.
* I am not sure Agent Carter is as I think she becomes over the course of her series a bit more willing to compromise on certain principles (though always to stop the bad guy and the suffering of innocents), being a secret agent and all. But if Mojo landed in the Agent Carterverse, I like to think Jarvis could pick it up, and do a parallel-Vision, "I think this belongs to you" sort of move.
And then I think the universes collide...Is this a fan theory, or has Marvel said this is what's going to happen?We've seen clips in the trailers where the different characters are interacting. EX: Party Thor with Evil Dr. Strange in Zombie World. Plus that Alternate Avengers circle pan showing them all.
They haven't said it out right but there are a lot of hints pointing at a multiverse Teamup.
Yes, my statement was just based on the shots in the trailers, which since they are in trailers, I don't think of as spoilery.
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Actively recruiting people from multiple timelines in order to defeat a threat to the Multiverse - yep Uatu has done that.
As for Party Thor, his Mjolnir may not have had the worthiness curse laid upon it considering it was his actions related to Loki and Jotunheim at the beginning of the first movie that caused Odin to place the curse and with Loki the rightful Prince of Jotunheim - those actions would not have occurred.
Someone tell Uatu about the observer effect.
I'm not telling that guy anything... Also Dirtypool is correct, I don't think this version of Mjolnir has a worthiness clause stuck on it.
Yeah, Mjonir is probably just really heavy in this one...but shouldn't Carol have been able to lift it if that was the case?
Eh maybe....I mean I don't remember her tossing mountains around in the comics...nor in the show much. I mean I always assumed Mjolnir had the heft/weight near a neutron star...
I don’t remember Carol actually trying to lift it. Thor put it on her chest when he was chastising her, but then immediately took it off himself.
Was there another scene I’m not thinking of where she tried and failed to lift it?
Not that I recall but she seemed to struggle to get up...which suggest she could easily remove it from her chest.
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Yeah, I thought it had to have the worthiness clause on it or it wouldn't have pinned down Carol. I'm going to chalk it up to the writers not thinking that hard about it.
Though I wonder if, regardless of the state of the hammer, given time, Carol could absorb Mjollnir's power and render it inert.
Yeah, I thought it had to have the worthiness clause on it or it wouldn't have pinned down Carol. I'm going to chalk it up to the writers not thinking that hard about it.
Though I wonder if, regardless of the state of the hammer, given time, Carol could absorb Mjollnir's power and render it inert.
Given that Odin revealed it was just a crutch to help Thor develop his powers, she very well could have absorbed the energy in Mjonir.
Joel,
Eh...I doubt it.
As for Carol absorbing Mjolnir's power...not sure she's able to do that directly like say, Absorbing Man and/or Rogue. I do agree with DQ, the writers didn't think this through.
One of Carol's abilities, as demonstrated in this episode (as well as several times in her own movie), is she absorbs and is fueled by any energy source. My speculation is not based on the idea of "absorbing special abilities" the way Rogue can, but on Captain Marvel's specific energy consumption/storage/transformation. Since Mjollnir is, as best I can tell, a source of magical lightning it seems like she might be able to consume its power, especially since indeed in this episode Thor hurls lightning from the hammer at her and she just lights up and throws it right back at him. The flaws in my presumption is I don't know that Mjollnir's power is finite, and/or that Mjollnir is a magical item and that while Carol can absorb an effect created by it, she can't consume the magic that fashions it itself.
I guess I just saw Mjolnir as a physical thing rather than just magic stuff.
That is how the MCU Mjolnir has been described, a physical object that serves as a focus for Thor’s power.
Yeah, I'm also on the fence. I'd have to see how it's implemented, but there's lots of ways it could go wrong.
Ironically, I'd love to see any of the characters from Marvel's Netflix series appear in an MCU crossover before I'd want to see alternate universe versions of existing characters showing up and complicating things (even though that's totally a comic book trope).
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"Are you Thor: God of Hammers?" Yeah, I thought Ragnarok established that Mjolnir was a lightning rod, nothing more, except that it's made of a special, nearly unbreakable substance... until caught by Hela of course.
So when Cap is wielding Mjollnir in Endgame, is he channeling Thor's lightning, while Thor is also using his own power?
This is not an argument, this is me trying to understand how this thing works.
I recognize I should probably not sweat it too hard.
ANYWAY...
On Today's Episode...
Another grim one, by necessity. Overall the premise was cool and I liked the characters here. However I felt this was the first episode that, after most eps with lightning fast pacing, dragged. While of course the action scenes were stupendous, I got the sense of them trying to pad and drag things out before the Big Decision is made.
- Loved Natasha wielding her "father's" shield.
- Loved Natasha in this in general.
- I enjoyed Clint, though his characterization seems to be partly inspired by the comics more than how he is typically written in the MCU.
- I also enjoyed Clint dying, because I am a terrible person.
- One could waste one's time wondering how Thanos has the Soul Stone when Gamora appears alive in a later shot.
- F#~* Ultron is scary. I mean, I know he is supposed to be, but while overall I don't want to see him again in the MCU "proper" I am glad to see this as I think he got a bit screwed in Avengers 2.
- So the fate of the multiverse rests on Arnim Zola's punch-card coded (so to speak) shoulders (also so to speak)? Yikes.
Looking forward to the big teamup next week. I know some had preferred things to stay standalone but I like that the events are linked, helps up the intrigue.
So when Cap is wielding Mjollnir in Endgame, is he channeling Thor's lightning, while Thor is also using his own power?
That'd be a quirk of the worthiness enchantment.
Real Thor had powers and had the weapon Mjolnir. Odin punished Thor by stripping the powers away and tying them to Mjolnir. Thor proved himself worthy and got his powers back, but Odin didn't lift the enchantment from the hammer.
So Real Thor has the powers because they're his, and Steve is worthy thus fulfilling the clause "Whosoever holds this hammer, if they be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor" which grants him the same powers as Thor.
I still imagine it is unlikely that Party Thor's Mjolnir has the enchantment, since he would never have lived the inciting incident.
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Interesting new episode. Looks like we’re finally getting to the big thing they’ve been building towards. I look forward to seeing where they go with this.
I’m guessing we might also see Captain Carter again, maybe with new powers based on her time in whatever that other dimension was.
Just was hoping more of a showing from Thanos. A little scrap that give Ultron an electric endorphin boost so he would get the motivation to go into outer space.
If they ever want to bring Ultron back, he is the easiest possible character to do so. Just have someone recover a sentinel drone with some of his programming preserved.
Also, I always thought that Zola had copies himself on that flashdrive when Natasha and Steve were investigating shield. They took that flashdrive with them, so there is a ready source for more Zola if they want.
I hope we get more Zola and/or Ultron. Also I feel bad for Uatu. He deserved a better chance against Ultron.
So, here's my question: How do Infinity Stones work, if there are multiple universes?
In the Loki series, we see them being used as paperweights in the TVA. Some YouTubers have theorized that, if there are multiple variants of the Infinity Stones, each set of 6 stones are keyed to their 'verse. It was further theorized that the stones of one universe would be worthless in another universe b/c those stones already exist in the second universe.
So... can Infinity Stones stay infinitely powerful regardless of the universe they travel to? If they can, then my question is worthless, but if they can't per the theories based on the Loki series, how did Infinity Ultron remain all powerful as he smashed through universe after universe?
Total stab in the dark: while by default, the Stones only work in their own universe, but with the full set you have godlike power and can rewrite reality, so why not rewrite the reality that your set of stones can function throughout the multiverse?
Alternately the stones always function, but there was something special about the subdimension that was the TVA that neutralized the stones' effect. Which if that's the case, the solution is to take Ultravision into the TVA.
Another option might be that if more than one of the same stone exist in the same place, they cancel each other out and become inert. So for example Loki's Tesseract became powerless because there were already a number of space stones in the TVA. And if that's the case the solution would be to grab a full-gauntlet Thanos from another universe and throw him at Ultravision.
How the heck were Hawkeye and Widow alive at all, post nuclear winter? Like, Ultron released ALL of the nukes worldwide right? So, wouldn't the radiation have poisoned them to death, if they hadn't starved or frozen or whatever? Neither had any "super" powers except Clint's arm, and its not like they were traveling around in hazmat suits or anything
Also total guess, with an additional caveat that I've only watched the episode once and I don't remember the exact timeline of how everything happened:
If Clint and Natasha were well underground when the nukes struck, they would be safe from the radiation. The nukes probably targeted high population areas; while the ensuring fallout, literally and figuratively, would take out most of the human population, there would be nonpopulated areas that would probably be less irradiated (even accounting for spread). If they wait a few weeks for the fallout to stop falling, IIRC (and I may not be recalling correctly) the background radiation should drop significantly such that they can get to another safe place if they move quickly enough and/or are wearing protective gear and/or have taken some potassium iodide (this last only protects the thyroid from absorbing radiation but still is a good thing to do if radiation is around). The KGB archive, underground and likely surrounded by thick steel and concrete, would be safe. Likewise Siberia would probably be relatively safe.
One thing to consider is that the TVA kept a lid on Alternate universes so there was basically just "The Sacred Timeline" and the TVA. All their infinity stones were seized from the pruned branches.
It wasn't until the end of the Loki series that a Multiverse re-enters reality, so to be fair we don't actually know how the Infinity stones react to alternate realities, just that they go inert when removed from reality and moved to where ever it is that the TVA is located. (DC named their "out of bounds" zone the Bleed, not sure what Marvel calls theirs)
Grey,
I think it's the Superflow. At least that's how I always saw the Bleed in the same vein.
Honestly I think the writers didn't remember that if only because in the comics (at least recently) the stones COULDN'T affect any other reality other than their home one. So...who knows.
Grey,
I think it's the Superflow. At least that's how I always saw the Bleed in the same vein.
Honestly I think the writers didn't remember that if only because in the comics (at least recently) the stones COULDN'T affect any other reality other than their home one. So...who knows.
I do remember when Marvel bought up Malibu Comics. They did a crossover story that added an Ego gem, made the whole set sentient
Then scrapped the universe and it was never seen again. Kind of a shame really Malibu had some interesting characters
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My favorite take from this episode is that Zola is basically confirmed to still be "alive" in the MCU.
Clever of you Marvel Studios, clever.
Hoping to see him in a feature film sometime.
Or at least a show.
I thought for a moment they might use him in Captain America 4, but that would be a disservice to Sam, having to clean up Steve's crap. He should get his own villains and his own stories.
I agree with Hama. Sam should get some of his own but no reason they couldn't be ex-HYDRA and/or the Watchdogs. But yeah if we get Zola back, that would be nice.
Grey,
The reason I remember the Superflow was because it was featured in Hickman's run leading up to Secret Wars 2015.
Watcher should have kept watching and stop doing the equivalent of yelling at the movie screen
In the movie continuity, the worthiness enchant was something Odin stuck on the hammer right before tossing it to earth. "You can have this and your powers back when you're ready for it" Thor was surprised he couldn't pick it up.
Since Party Thor didn't have loki talking him into a raid on jotenheim , party thor wasn't in trouble, wasn't tossed to earth, and the hammer didn't have that enchanment on it.
No one expects the screen to talk back.
.. then why is it talking to me?
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In the movie continuity, the worthiness enchant was something Odin stuck on the hammer right before tossing it to earth. "You can have this and your powers back when you're ready for it" Thor was surprised he couldn't pick it up.
Since Party Thor didn't have loki talking him into a raid on jotenheim , party thor wasn't in trouble, wasn't tossed to earth, and the hammer didn't have that enchanment on it.
Then it shouldn't have held down Carol the way it did.
What if...?
The watcher had kept his mouth shut?
Then it shouldn't have held down Carol the way it did.
It was on Carols chest for fifteen whole seconds, seven of which she had her shoulders fully off the ground, I don’t think it was holding Carol down at all.
If someone has something on top of me, Dirtypool, I tend to get up rather quickly...
Sure Thomas, but you’ve never had something forged out of the dense material existing at the core of a star placed on you, and thus have no idea how heavy it would be. Care to volunteer for an experiment where you lay down and someone places 10/20/30 lb sledges on your chest to figure out how quick you’d actually be able to get up?
Odins enchantment wasn’t placed on something Thor bought at Home Depot, it was placed on an already mystical weapon with at least three stated origins in the comic universe (each involving magical metals or star material) and no confirmed origin in the Cinematic Universe.
We have no idea how heavy a non enchanted Mjolnir would be, so the argument presented here is the narrative consistency of something that has never actually been explained to us before. If suspending disbelief for a 15 second sequence becomes difficult, it might be time to stop engaging with fantasy and science fiction narratives.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Sure Thomas, but you’ve never had something forged out of the dense material existing at the core of a star placed on you, and thus have no idea how heavy it would be. Care to volunteer for an experiment where you lay down and someone places 10/20/30 lb sledges on your chest to figure out how quick you’d actually be able to get up?
Odins enchantment wasn’t placed on something Thor bought at Home Depot, it was placed on an already mystical weapon with at least three stated origins in the comic universe (each involving magical metals or star material) and no confirmed origin in the Cinematic Universe.
We have no idea how heavy a non enchanted Mjolnir would be, so the argument presented here is the narrative consistency of something that has never actually been explained to us before. If suspending disbelief for a 15 second sequence becomes difficult, it might be time to stop engaging with fantasy and science fiction narratives.
I agree, and we also don't know what enchantments are on it aside from the worthiness one, which likely isn't there in this universe. It could have one that does other weird things with it's weight and density, such as only being liftable from above not below, to allow it to do the pin maneuver like it does. I still like the theory that it has some unique "Party Thor" enchantment - either only those worthy to party with him can lift it, or he can will it to be immovable to "hold my beer without spilling it" etc.
Considering that the offical Marvel guide book lists Mjolnir as weighing at 42.3 lb and Carol generally can lift TONS... I'm not sure that's accurate. Unless of course the fact Mjolnir (since it was forged inside the heart of a dying neutron star) might weigh as much...then yeah I can see that.
The Guide is to the 616 Comics Universe, there is no such stated weight of the MCU Mjolnir. The MCU version was forged in the heart of a Neutron star, the comics version (the non Uru version) was forged FROM the heart of a Neutron star.
Last week you were arguing that it was incredibly weighty, now you’re arguing that it is light. Are you arguing just to argue?
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What if...?
The watcher had kept his mouth shut?
I kind of feel sorry for the Watcher. He can't do anything about what happens (until he can) so despite being an entity of ultimate cosmic power, all he can do is shout at the screen.
Also, Agatha in that one scene aside, is the Watcher who everyone in WandaVision was actually talking to during the Modern-Family-style episode?