
MrCharisma |
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So the Amroured Battlemage is basically a straight downgrade from Magus BUT the Battle Host is also basically a straight downgrade from Occultsit. Also, realistically they're both playable.
So rather than compare either of them to their base class, let's compare them to each other.
So the Armoured Battlemage loses Spell Combat. That's a big loss, but not one that the Battle Host can overcome either, so we'll call them even.
The Armoured Battlemage loses the ability to enhance their weapon on the fly, but replaces it with the ability to enhance their armour on the fly instead. The Battlehost can potentially have BOTH armour and weapon enhancements on the fly by chosing Abjuration and Transmutation implements. This puts the Battlehost ahead by a fair chunk. The Armoured Battlemage (I'm gonna say AB and BH for short) ... The AB can do this enhancement as a swift action, so that's a point in their favour, but it doesn't make up for losing weapon buffs on a 3/4 BAB character.
Spells: The AB wins this one handily. Occultists start off with barely any spells known, and then build their repertoire every time they gain an implement. This looks bad but by the time you get to level 10 they've usually surpassed all other spontaneous casters. Not so the BH. They lose an implement at 1st level and again at 6th level, which means they only have 2 Implements all the way up till level 9, and get their 3rd implement at 10. This means at level 9 they'll only know 2 knacks, 2 first level spells, 2 second level spells and 2 third level spells. A Magus - being a prepaired caster - easily beats this.
Feats - about the same.
Other class abilities: I think the BH is the clear winner here. Occultist Focus Powers tend to be much more powerful than Magus Arcana. They're often significantly more powerful than your spells (eg. Telekinetic Mastery is a spammable 5th level spell that you get before you have 4th level spells). Yes you only have 2 Implements for most of your carreer, but if you choose them wisely they'll have a lot of abilities that will be useful to you.
Conclusion: The Battlehost Occultist seems significantly more powerful to me, but between a VERY limited set of spells and only 2 Implement choices before 10th level you'l have much less Versatility than a regular Occultist - or than a Magus. The Armoured Battlemage loses a big chunk of power (Spell Combat, Weapon Enhancements) but doesn't really lose any versatility compared to other Magi.
If you want to be more powerful go for the Occultist, if you want more versatility go for the Magus.

avr |
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Armored battlemage: medium armor from 1st, heavy armor from 7th level, battle host occultist: heavy armor from 1st including a free suit of masterwork full plate.
The magus spell list is more specialised but sadly not better within that specialisation. The occultist doesn't get access to all of their spell list so has less use for items - though they can use a wand of CLW (one of the commonest items in use) if they get a conjuration implement.
The armored battlemage magus gets spellstrike though not spell combat. The occultist can use a 2H weapon or weapon and shield and still cast spells.
The magus is going to have an easier time casting defensively. The battle host gets a bunch of supernatural abilities which don't require concentration at all but needs a move action free if casting defensively is necessary.
The battle host occultist gets more bonus feats, 1/4 levels rather than 1/6.
The battle host gets many more sources of buffs. Passive buffs which replace some of the big six (giving you more money for interesting items), buffs which take a swift action like heroic splendor, buffs which take a standard action like aegis or legacy weapon, potentially spells. The armored battlemage can buff their armor with their arcane pool (not as well as aegis does) and cast spells.
The battle host is not one of the better archetypes of occultist but it's still going to be better than the armored battlemage.

MrCharisma |
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Ive always thought spellstrike was the magus's core class feature but to each their own.
Let's take a look at each feature in a vacuum.
We'll assume a level 10 Magus with Intensified Shocking Grasp (the classic), who deals - let's say an 80% chance to hit for 1d6+20 damage on a hit.
With Spellstrike alone you can deliver this through your scimitar for 1d6+20+10d6, all with a 30% crit chance. That's ~60.48 damage total. You only get 1 attack for the round. EDIT: Average damage per round using a single attack and Spellstrike.
With Spell Combat alone you make 2 attacks (at -2 to hit) as well as make a touch attack. So now you get 2 attacks (at 70% and 45%) and also get to deliver the spell as a touch spell. If we're fighting an enemy who's touch AC is the same as their regular AC then the damage is 60.1225 for the round. That's so close that it's almost irrelevant, but as soon as their Touch AC is 1 point sorse than their regular AC the Spell Combat Magus wins.
Now let's look at non-damaging spells. If you cast Haste and full attack you can attack an extra round (the round you cast it). If you cast Fly and full-attack you can full-attacl and the 5foot step over the edge of a cliff. If you cast Vanish and full attack you can be immune to damage for a round (or until your opponent finds you). Then there are spells like Bladed Dash that give the Magus pseudo-pounce at a very early level.
Essentially Spellstrike increases your damage, but so does Spell Combat. Spell Combat also increases your flexibility as a class.

UnArcaneElection |

For best results, a Magus needs both Spell Combat and Spellstrike, BUT a Magus with only Spell Combat can still do some pretty amazing things. In addition to what is posted above, you can Spell Combat cast True Strike and then do any Combat Maneuver that could replace a regular attack, and have an extremely good chance of pulling it off. Not getting that from an Armored Battlemage until they get to 13th level and can take Quicken Spell to use with True Strike, which is a really expensive way to do it.
If they had made Armored Battlemage so that it lost 1 spell of each level but retained the ability to enhance their weapon, and gotten Spell Combat at a later level, as is the case with Skirnir, it wouldn't have been so bad. (Skirnir can enhance weapon and shield, so what you need is for hypothetical fixed Armored Battlemage to be able to enhance weapon and armor instead of just armor.) Armored Battlemage also went overboard on trading out stuff for Armor Training (if you're going to trade out that much stuff, at least have half of it be for Weapon Training, like for Myrmidarch).

MrCharisma |

Actually thinking about it losing Spell Combat wouldn't be as bad for a debuff focused Magus.
Grab yourself a reach weapon. Cast a good Buff/Debuff spell in the surprise round. Then Round 1 you cast Frostbite (or whatever) and move up and attack. Then it's more about denying space and judiciously applying the debuffs than the usual Magus playbook.
It's still less versatile than the average Magus, but it's doable.
Alternately you could focus on INT and be a crappy wizard who's wearing Plate and holding a Bardiche. Then you can blast away to your heart' content and not worry about being caught out by the big muscle-monster that usually makes life hard for a Wizard.
So it really depends on your playstyle.
Personally, I think if you can find 2 good Implements to suit your playstyle then the Battlehost will be better. However if you're wanting a more generic wizard-y feel to your mech-suit then the Magus is probably better.

Dragonchess Player |

The only thing I would add is that for simulating a magitech knight concept, the battle host occultist is a much better fit with the resonant powers and focus powers from the implement schools.
The resonant powers, which last all day as long as you start with a given amount of focus points invested and retain at least one focus point in that implement school, can be especially strong: Abjuration gives a bonus to saves that effectively replaces a cloak of resistance, Divination is amazing (low-light vision at 3rd, darkvision to 60 ft at 5th, see invisibility at 7th, blindsense to 60 ft at 13th, blightsight to 30ft at 19th), Transmutation gives a bonus to one physical ability score that effectively works as a belt that doesn't take up an item slot and can go up to +8 (+2 at 1st, +4 at 6th, +6 at 12th, +8 at 18th).
The other implement schools' resonant powers aren't as strong, though. The Conjuration resonant power is especially weak, but some of the focus powers are pretty nice (Conjure Implement can basically be used to summon a masterwork weapon [as weapons can be used as Transmutation implements] of any type [and the Transmutation base focus power Legacy Weapon can add enhancement bonuses and/or weapon abilities; any weapon ability that you have enough "equivalent plusses" for, like "bane of whatever creature type I'm about to fight"], Mind Steed can conjure a mount [that can fly at 9th level], Side Step can let you teleport "as part of a move action used to move" up to 10 ft/level that only counts as 5 ft of your movement).

MrCharisma |

The only thing I would add is that for simulating a magitech knight concept, the battle host occultist is a much better fit with the resonant powers and focus powers from the implement schools.
Yeah I think it fits thematically perfectly, but you can flavour the AB just fine.
The resonant powers, which last all day as long as you start with a given amount of focus points invested and retain at least one focus point in that implement school, can be especially strong: Abjuration gives a bonus to saves that effectively replaces a cloak of resistance, Divination is amazing (low-light vision at 3rd, darkvision to 60 ft at 5th, see invisibility at 7th, blindsense to 60 ft at 13th, blightsight to 30ft at 19th), Transmutation gives a bonus to one physical ability score that effectively works as a belt that doesn't take up an item slot and can go up to +8 (+2 at 1st, +4 at 6th, +6 at 12th, +8 at 18th).
As I'm playing one right now, here are my thoughts on the Resonant powers:
Abjuration is quite good at early levels, but a Cloak of Resistance is one of the best and one of the cheapest items out there. By level 6 or so the party have probably got Cloaks that match your Implement. Since they're so cheap this one really just saves you some cash - and not that much at that. It does give you a +6 Resistance Bonus at level 20 though, so there's that.
Divination is basically as good as it sounds. Getting +4 to Perception, Dark Vision and See Invisibility all day by level 7 is crazy good.
Transmutation is noticably better than Abjuration. Theoretically it's just saving you cash, but it's a LOT of cash. Likely the Transmutation Implement is always 1 step ahead of the Belt-of-<stat> you could afford at any point in the game, meaning it's not just saving you cash, it's also goving a bigger bonus.
Conjuration is rubbish. It's not quite as bad as people say on the forums (they have actually updated the spell list to include more than 1 spell to be affected by it), but even if it affected ALL Conjuration spells it still isn't that great.
That's all the ones that I have on my Occultist so far, but one last thing I'll add is that the standard capstone ability for the Occultist makes some of these even better at level 20. The Transmutation Implement can get up to +10 Enhancement bonus to a stat, and the Abjuration Implement can give +7 Resistance bonus to all saves. Not game-breaking at that level, but it is the highest bonuses of those types that I know of.
Now this only takes into account the Resonant Powers, not the Focus Powers or the Spells. So it's probably worth looking at those before deciding as well.

Dragonchess Player |

Dragonchess Player wrote:The only thing I would add is that for simulating a magitech knight concept, the battle host occultist is a much better fit with the resonant powers and focus powers from the implement schools.Yeah I think it fits thematically perfectly, but you can flavour the AB just fine.
Quote:The resonant powers, which last all day as long as you start with a given amount of focus points invested and retain at least one focus point in that implement school, can be especially strong: Abjuration gives a bonus to saves that effectively replaces a cloak of resistance, Divination is amazing (low-light vision at 3rd, darkvision to 60 ft at 5th, see invisibility at 7th, blindsense to 60 ft at 13th, blightsight to 30ft at 19th), Transmutation gives a bonus to one physical ability score that effectively works as a belt that doesn't take up an item slot and can go up to +8 (+2 at 1st, +4 at 6th, +6 at 12th, +8 at 18th).As I'm playing one right now, here are my thoughts on the Resonant powers:
Abjuration is quite good at early levels, but a Cloak of Resistance is one of the best and one of the cheapest items out there. By level 6 or so the party have probably got Cloaks that match your Implement. Since they're so cheap this one really just saves you some cash - and not that much at that. It does give you a +6 Resistance Bonus at level 20 though, so there's that.
It also frees up the shoulder slot for an entangling aiguillette, cloak of the hedge wizard, cloak of fiery vanishing, etc. At higher levels, this allows the occultist to wear juggernaut's pauldrons and still have the expected bonus on saves.
Divination is basically as good as it sounds. Getting +4 to Perception, Dark Vision and See Invisibility all day by level 7 is crazy good.
Transmutation is noticably better than Abjuration. Theoretically it's just saving you cash, but it's a LOT of cash. Likely the Transmutation Implement is always 1 step ahead of the Belt-of-<stat> you could afford at any point in the game, meaning it's not just saving you cash, it's also goving a bigger bonus.
Conjuration is rubbish. It's not quite as bad as people say on the forums (they have actually updated the spell list to include more than 1 spell to be affected by it), but even if it affected ALL Conjuration spells it still isn't that great.
Usually, Conjuration is taken for the access to some healing spells plus Flesh Mend/Purge Corruption or access to the dimensional movement options. The resonant power is... not a big draw.

MrCharisma |

Yeah that's the other big benefit of the Abjuration/Transmutation implements - it frees up a magic item slot to be used for something else. I really like this thematically since Occultists are all about weird magic items.
The other powers I'll mention are:
Evocation - if you want to deal direct damage with your spells you really need this. There's no replacement.
Conjuration/Illusion/Necromancy - these are the Implements with summoning. They each have other things they do well, but they have Summoning in common. Probably in reverse order of you want the best ones, but I'm not an expert on that.
Abjuration/Divination/Illusion - I'd probably want one of these for defense. Abjuration is likely the best at it, but also the most narrow in it's focus.
Transmutation - If you want to be good with weapons there is no replacement.
Enchantment/Illusion(/maybe Divination?) - manipulating enemies.
I dunno, I'm sure there are a zillion ways to break them up into groups. That's just some randok thoughts. Clearly we think more about the Occultist =P