I like the poisoned sand tube. It's not widely talked about, but it's pretty amazing. In combat, 3 doses of quicklime is a DC18 fortitude save to resist and consequently a favorite to hit any pesky arcane spellcasters with. It's also eminently concealable, and for 1gp entirely disposable if it comes to that. And an amazing property it has which is entirely unique as far as I can tell in the game is that it's a weapon that does not require a roll to hit, so people who don't have proficiency have no penalty to use it.
Anyone else have good uses, tactics or whatnot that can expand the versatility of this amazing item even further?
Well, one of my favorites is using Infuse Poison with Toxic Spell.
Infused Poison = Poison + Spell
Toxic Spell = Spell + Poison
Toxic Spell + Infused Poison =
Spell + Poison + Spell
Now for the fun part... use Toxic Spell to Infuse a Poison... then use that as a material compinent to cast a different Toxic Spell...
Spell + Poison + Spell + Poison
All with one casting of a spell... but that doesn't apply to Sand Tubes. You can still use Infused Poison with a Toxic Spell to make your Sand Tubes do Poison + Spell + Poison...
You use 3 doses of a poison at once, that makes it expensive - and poisons are already expensive to the point of being impractical. Especially if you're using infused poisons. Quicklime doesn't have a price but I am confident that if it wasn't a tool used by some enemy in a module it would have, and would probably have a lower save DC if it was intended for general use as well.
Being an alchemist so that you can get the poison conversion discovery to make non-{contact or inhaled} poisons into such seems like a good first step. Also making your own poisons could save some cash. It doesn't look like proficiency is an issue so a monkey tumor familiar could use one for you.
Toxicants (or folks with friends thereof) due to having plentiful poisons that are free. Do note they don't call out "type" but the application description is almost literally contact poison type. Applied by touch, or applied to a weapon.
So its basically a contact poison. So it should work. Though as it doesn't have a specific listing I could see a very strict GM stating no.
But that would be the best option by far. Its an Ex ability as well and no duration atttached. So you could technically build up a stockpile for it. it is also quite potent poison.
Outside of that. I'm a big fan of Drow inhaled. If your an alchemist with the various ways to boost the DC. You inherently have 3 stack on it. It does not specify the inhaled stack of 3 works differently than usual stacks of 3. so it in theory increases the DC.
So using various methods and that you can end up with a fair strong knock out poison.
'Each creature in the cone is affected as if afflicted with 1 dose of the poison.' - the save DC doesn't go up for the 3 doses used.
The toxicant's a reasonable idea, though 3 of your Int+Alchemist level/day uses is something that you'll need a day of downtime to use effectively. Also note the celestial poisons discovery so that you can poison skeletons etc.
Good catch~ I missed it.
Why is the Int+Lv something you'll need a downtime day? You can toss that up. You'll still have a lot. Its effectively similiar to a fast bomb round.
Not great at low levels when you'll have maybe 4-5 uses. But at that level theres no way you'd have 3 doses of other poisons to use it with. At mid levels you'll have likely more than enough doses of poison for other uses and a sand tube or two. Particularly if one ends up with the sticky poison (some would some don't. Though if you're using any other poison than toxicant's on occasion you quite do want to have that as a money saver).
So far, even with combat heavier days, I generally have a few doses left in the day I can save up. Though I also haven't used sand tubes more than once or twice in a day. AOE set ups aren't too common; much less on occasions when I can draw the weapon and use it in time w/out losing whats in my hand already.
As a random "money saving note" poisoner's Jacket does get you free doses. It is not remotely cheap however. But the base one would get you 3 doses of 300gp or less poison 1/day. Which could be enough for a specific tailored occasion.
but overall that item is insane costy. Its a shame abit I'd love to have it but the cost is enormous for the low benefit of those DCs.
If you havea generous GM they might allow the Alchemist favored class bonus that boosts poison DCS to work. Depends on if they view "the item" or "The alchemist that uses the item" to be the one creating it. Base I dont think it works but it feels reasonable that using the item you could use your knowledge of poisons.
VoodistMonk wrote: ...
Now for the fun part... use Toxic Spell to Infuse a Poison... then use that as a material compinent to cast a different Toxic Spell...
Spell + Poison + Spell + Poison
All with one casting of a spell... but that doesn't apply to Sand Tubes. You can still use Infused Poison with a Toxic Spell to make your Sand Tubes do Poison + Spell + Poison...
That's an excellent idea. It occurs to me that it also allows you to use an NPC spellcaster (with Infuse Poison) to "charge" that poison with a desired spell for the low, low price of 10gp x spell level x caster level. Nice!
g3taso wrote: VoodistMonk wrote: ...
Now for the fun part... use Toxic Spell to Infuse a Poison... then use that as a material compinent to cast a different Toxic Spell...
Spell + Poison + Spell + Poison
All with one casting of a spell... but that doesn't apply to Sand Tubes. You can still use Infused Poison with a Toxic Spell to make your Sand Tubes do Poison + Spell + Poison...
That's an excellent idea. It occurs to me that it also allows you to use an NPC spellcaster (with Infuse Poison) to "charge" that poison with a desired spell for the low, low price of 10gp x spell level x caster level. Nice! If you are worried about the costs involved, then have your spellcasting friend that has Infuse Poison be a Druid with Druidic Herbalism. And, done... all you financial woes are gone.
A "gear" Gnome Druid VMC Cleric that worships Brigh, and has Druidic Herbalism as well as Divine Alchemy... breaking downtime crafting is easy. Lol.
I'm not as worried, despite the rousing declarations from the boards about how it's too expensive, or just doesn't work. Quicklime is a really cheap poison, and frankly anything botanical can be easily made in quantity by using Portable Garden and either Instant Fertilizer or the spell Harvest Season. Heck, even paying for Harvest Season as an item would be well worth it because you can use your downtime to make poisons and so forth in quantity.
g3taso wrote: I'm not as worried, despite the rousing declarations from the boards about how it's too expensive, or just doesn't work. Quicklime is a really cheap poison, and frankly anything botanical can be easily made in quantity by using Portable Garden and either Instant Fertilizer or the spell Harvest Season. Heck, even paying for Harvest Season as an item would be well worth it because you can use your downtime to make poisons and so forth in quantity. Looking at the source for quicklime (Anvil of Fire, part 5 of the Giantslayer Adventure Path)... it seems to read that a dose of quicklime is on the order of a giant-sized cauldron... So the "-" for weight is misleading.
It's also not listed as free, more accurately it doesn't have a cost entry in the rule-source, that's why it says "N/A". Do you know what "N/A" stands for? Not Available.
Also, in the adventure it's handled more like a trap or hazard than a poison.
I don't think Quicklime can be crafted by PC's... without a cost listed, how, exactly, is one to figure out how long it takes to make?
It's like when the Alchemist asks about making the Dust of Sneezing and Choking... the answer is no. Why? Because there is no cost listed... it's a cursed item made by mistake... the GM (me) doesn't freaking like it...
Anyways, there is a Witch that can harvest poisons from their Familiar. Might be worth looking at. It's just Dex damage, but at least the DC scales with your level. However, it is both infinite in supply, and costs you nothing...
Quicklime is something that you should be able to make or acquire for some non-zero cost. It's a real thing used in medieval industry, not the extract of a fictional herb which grows only in one place. OTOH a cauldron-full or three isn't something you'll be able to stick in a poisoned sand tube.
If you're willing to invest enough effort you'll be able to reduce the costs of botanical poisons. That does involve craft checks to turn the raw materials into poisons which takes a lot of time (you can't just cut off poppy heads and put them into a sand tube if you want the full effect). The usefulness depends on just how much downtime you get per adventure.
I think the lack of cost and the limited is probably because while the materials are easy to get. The actual know how is relatively few civs actually knew the full recipe usage . Its one of the things that helped Rome and aztec/mayan build so much (also helped in the latters food options actually with nixtamazation). Although to be fair, it has more to do with Slake lime-used for cement/concrete than Quick Lime. Which isn't a big leap in tech but surprisingly it being lost is one of the big factors in the gap of time between Roman structures and the later recreation of cement
So its fairly simple these days. Without knowledge of it, its something that may not be readily discovered. Not many folks have tried burning seashells or rocks to such a high temp unless they were freely researching. Even then, Quick Lime isn't very stable compared to Slake Lime; often degrading by the time it cools. Which is actually how its described doing damage I guess interestingly enough. Since it does get very intense when reacting into slakelime.
but yeah. Very much not the sort of thing that can be retained in a sand tube, and without costs and such. its not available to player/shopping baring a GM adjutication IMO.
Luckily there are a lot more options. Growing it is good. If you have poison converting getting a familiar with free milking is also pretty decent.
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