shocking grasp clawed bloodrager


Advice

Liberty's Edge

I have read a lot about how a shocking grasp magus is very overpowered. But could you make a bloodrager with the same build.

I was thinking a Urban Bloodrager with crossblood. Then taking the bloodline of either abyssal, sphinx, or draconic.

The idea is to pounce on the enemy and hit with two claw attacks and add shocking grasp to the damage as well. So high mobility would be very helpful as well.


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So there are 3 reasons the Magus is better at this.

1. Spell Combat. The Magus can cast SG every round AND make a full attack. A Bloodrager isn't actually terrible at this, with Greater Bloodrage they can cast and full-attack as well. In fact if you get immunity to Fatigue you can do this every round just like the Magus and if you get Primalist you can do it with Pounce. However you can't do this until level 11, you have to jump through more hoops to do it, and even fully optimised you'll still run out of spell slots fairly quickly (and Runestones of Power are more expeensive than Pearls of Power).

2. Spellstrike. Spellstrike lets you use your weapon's crit-modifier instead of the spell's. This increases the Magus SG damage by ~30% (well ~24%, the Bloodrager still has a 5% chance to crit), which means a Magus will deal more SG damage than the Bloodrager.

3. Necessity. So this one isn't actually an advantage of the Magus. Magi use 1-handed weapons, and often don't use damage increasing feats like Power Attack. Dealing 1d6+10 damage is fine when you're adding 10d6 spell damage, but it still doesn't really compare to 3d6+45 damage from a buffed up Bloodrager.

So all up you'll have to jump through more hoops, you'll have to wait till you get Greater Bloodrage, you'll get less SG damage (from crits) and you'll be dealing more damage with your other weapons so it'll be less impactful.

Having said that, adding 10d6 damage per round is nothing to scoff at. If you feel like investing a trait and a feat into Shocking Grasp, then dipping 1 level of Oracle (Lame curse, look up how Oracle Curses stack) and charging in every round with electrified claws then have at it.

Silver Crusade

I would make a point, 1d6+10 is underselling what a magus can actually do. Especially comparing to your bloodrager.

1 level of sorcerer(crossblooded) or even just plain sorcerer works well for magus.

1d6+10+10d6+10(20) is quite tasty.

Another point- a strength magus can two-hand a single bladed weapon whenever they desire.

Magus can also target touch AC with their melee strikes when they so desire with a simple arcana. Or gain a +to hit for less arcane points.

Bladebound Maguses also have extra cash over the bloodrager. Not to mention the ability to enhance their blade. (they have a +5 weapon at level 10 easily)

1d6+10 is a very bare minimum for most magi at level 10.


rorek55 wrote:
I would make a point, 1d6+10 is underselling what a magus can actually do. Especially comparing to your bloodrager.

Yes my numbers were exaggerated, but you get the idea. A Magus who isn't using Spell-Combat/Spellstrike is going to deal Waaaay less damage than a Bloodrager of the same level.

Quote:
Another point - a strength magus can two-hand a single bladed weapon whenever they desire.

Any time except when they use Spell Combat ...

So my point wasn't really a critique of the Magus class, it was more an explanation of why Bloodragers don't usually play like a Magus. All the damage and tricks available to the Magus are pretty irrelevant unless you're suggesting a way for a Bloodrager to use them.

Bloodragers have their own tricks to get damage. As I said, getting 10d6 extra damage per round is nothing to scoff at (and is doable for a Bloodrager), but Bloodragers have their own ways to get more damage: - Blooded Arcane Strike and Raging Brutality instantly come to mind, and a Primalist can get Pounce and Come-And-Get-Me.


The other thing is that bloodragers have very few spell slots to do this with. Even a 10th level bloodrager likely only has 7 spells per day and probably they want a few non-shocking grasp spells too.


Well to actually emulate Spell-Combat you need to cast and full-attack in one round, which means you need Greater Bloodrage (and preferably a way to Rage-Cycle), which means you need to be an 11th level Bloodrager (preferably with 1 level of Oracle and the Lame curse). Having said that, Bloodragers have the same spells per day at 11th level as they did at 10th.

2 first level spells, 1 second level spell and 1 third level spell.

Let's imagine you have 5 first level Runestones of Power (2,000gp each, that's 10,000gp), and you have 12-19 Charisma (I can't imagine why you'd have more than 18, so that'll do).

You now effectively have 8 first level spells per day (2, +1 from your CHA modifier, +5 from Runestones), enough for ~2 per combat on the average adventuring day, or 1 per average combat and you can spam it on a boss - assuming you don't have any other first level spells you want to cast.

That's not terrible. It's fairly good even. +35 damage per round is definitely noticable. A boss who takes 4 rounds to kill is taking 140 damage from this, which likely means they actually only take 3 rounds to kill (and i guess "only" 105 damage from Shocking Grasp).

Definitely not a bad idea. But it DOES cost you limited spell-slots, and it does cost at least a feat and a trait, and you can't cast and full-attack till level 11, and you can't do that 2 rounds in a row till level 17 (or 12 with an Oracle dip).

Honestly, I think you should try it and let us know how it goes. I think it'll be fun, and respectably good. Just don't forget other tricks, and don't skimp on utility/movement spells just for a Shocking Grasp.

Liberty's Edge

I read that rage cycling would be needed, why is that, a bloodrager can cast spells while raging?

Liberty's Edge

3. Necessity. So this one isn't actually an advantage of the Magus. Magi use 1-handed weapons, and often don't use damage increasing feats like Power Attack. Dealing 1d6+10 damage is fine when you're adding 10d6 spell damage, but it still doesn't really compare to 3d6+45 damage from a buffed up Bloodrager.

So all up you'll have to jump through more hoops, you'll have to wait till you get Greater Bloodrage, you'll get less SG damage (from crits) and you'll be dealing more damage with your other weapons so it'll be less impactful.

Having said that, adding 10d6 damage per round is nothing to scoff at. If you feel like investing a trait and a feat into Shocking Grasp, then dipping 1 level of Oracle (Lame curse, look up how Oracle Curses stack) and charging in every round with electrified claws then have at it.

how are you getting 10d6 + 45 damage from the blood rager?


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I imagine it's about greater bloodrage's free application of a spell to yourself as you start the bloodrage. Given that it only applies the effects to yourself I don't recommend doing this with shocking grasp tho'.


Horas Ebonfeather wrote:
I read that rage cycling would be needed, why is that, a bloodrager can cast spells while raging?

Avr is correct, I misremembered the text in Greater Bloodrage, and thought you could cast any spell with a range of Personal/Touch - while technically true, you do (as avr said) have to target yourself with with that spell, so it's a pretty terrible idea. Forget that idea, it's apparently not relevant (my bad).

So the problem isn't: "needing to be level 11 to cast spells as a free action" because that didn't work. Instead the problem is "needing a way to cast spells as a free/swift action".

Without casting as a free/swift action you have to give up a full-round attack to cast your shocking grasp. This is almost never going to be worth it. Even if your Shocking Grasp deals the same damage as a full-attack, you've now spent a spell-slot to deal the same damage you would have without casting the spell.

The best way I can think of to reliably cast SG as a swift action is to play a METAMAGIC RAGER and use rage rounds to quicken SG. Though it's costing you 10 rounds of rage (8 with Magical Lineage) so it's still not something you can do all day.


Horas Ebonfeather wrote:
how are you getting 10d6 + 45 damage from the blood rager?

As I said earlier, those numbers were exaggerated.

For an actual reference, my 12th level Bloodrager (Bloodrager-10/Oracle-1/Brawler-1) deals 6d6+26, or ~47 damage when buffed up (7d6+30, or ~54.5 damage with the bard involved). Most of my character choices have been defensive ones (I'm the only front-line character), so I'm sure people could do better.

By level 20 if I go all out with Blooded Arcane Strike and Raging Brutality, and taking the Come And Get Me rage power I'll be dealing around 800-DPR when it all comes together (I did the math a while ago, so it might be off a bit, but it' around that).

The point is that a Bloodrager can boost their damage directly and then go to town on the enemy and not bother with spells like Shocking Grasp. The Magus can Nova pretty hard, but the Bloodrager can hit almost as hard, and they can do it nearly all day.

But if you want to pre-cast Shocking Grasp before combat so that your first claw attack deals ~35 bonus damage I don't see why that would be a bad idea.

Liberty's Edge

may not be able nuke but I prefer to be able to reliably hit hard all the time and I like the survivability of a bloodrager.

@ Mrcharisma: would a 1 level dip in oracle with lame curse be necessary if you will get tireless rage at hire levels or are there other curses that are just as beneficial.

But when I can be part of another campaign I am going to try the primalist bloodrager. that way I can get some rage powers without taking some bloodline powers I don't like.


Horas Ebonfeather wrote:
@ Mrcharisma: would a 1 level dip in oracle with lame curse be necessary if you will get tireless rage at hire levels or are there other curses that are just as beneficial.

Look up how Oracle curses stack. Basically if you take 1 level of Oracle and 8 levels of Bloodrager you gain immunity to Fatigue (so a 1 level dip at level 9 gets you immunity to fatigue then). That's 8 levels earlier, which is a HUGE fast-forward on Rage-Cycling.

Also, I took a level of Dual-Cursed Oracle, so I was able to get 2 curses, though only the Lame curse increases as I level.

Having said that, if you're going to be playing to level 20 and don't need to Rage-cycle then Mighty Bloodrage is definitely a bigger benefit than this. Do you want rage-cycling 8 levels early or do you want Mighty Bloodrage at level 20?

(I wasn't going to dip, but then I died and was brought back, so I took Dual-cursed: Lame/Possessed for flavour, and it' been pretty mechanically beneficial too.)

Liberty's Edge

Look up how Oracle curses stack. Basically if you take 1 level of Oracle and 8 levels of Bloodrager you gain immunity to Fatigue (so a 1 level dip at level 9 gets you immunity to fatigue then). That's 8 levels earlier, which is a HUGE fast-forward on Rage-Cycling.

Also, I took a level of Dual-Cursed Oracle, so I was able to get 2 curses, though only the Lame curse increases as I level.

Having said that, if you're going to be playing to level 20 and don't need to Rage-cycle then Mighty Bloodrage is definitely a bigger benefit than this. Do you want rage-cycling 8 levels early or do you want Mighty Bloodrage at level 20?

I have never rage cycled before so I can see the benefit of getting immune to fatigue 9 levels earlier. I will have to look into some of the rage powers that only work once per rage and see what I can use.

currently I am playing a scaleheart skinwalker that is a feral gnasher barbarian and going with a 4 lvl dip into bloody-knuckled bloodrager with abyssal bloodline. However, my DM said I could rebuild and go full bloodrager. so that is why I am looking into a good front liner dps/tank bloodrager.


Another problem Bloodrager is going to have is how long Shocking Grasp remains fully relevant. Since Bloodrager DOESN'T have the equivalent of the Paladin or Ranger text that says their caster level is 3 below their level, Bloodrager caster level (absent any auxiliary caster level boosts) is equal to their level, which helps get Shocking Grasp up and running at the level they need -- but very quickly they max it out, since it is capped at 5 dice, while enemies will keep getting tougher. They will need Intensified Spell to bump the cap up another 5 levels, but won't be able to make use of this until level 7 (advent of 2nd level spells) unless using a Metamagic cost reducer (expensive to your build), the Metamagic Rager archetype (there goes Improved Uncanny Dodge(*)), or a Metamagic Rod (inconvenient unless you have a prehensile tail or somehow got extra limbs or a tentacle). But the worse problem is that using any Metamagic (other than Quicken Spell) as a spontaneous spellcaster increases the casting time to a full-found action(**), meaning that not only do you not have Spell Combat, you have Anti-(Spell Combat). To get around this you need Spontaneous Metafocus, which is a feat that you have to take for each spell you want to do this with, and even if you're willing to pay this price, you won't be able to get it until 2 levels after you got Intensified Spell, unless you somehow had another Metamagic feat to satisfy the prerequisite).

(*)I have toyed with the idea of Metamagic Rager VMC Barbarian: At 3rd level you get what starts out as a weak Extra Rage, but which gets better as you level up and pretty soon becomes stronger than the feat; at 7th level you get Uncanny Dodge, which actually means you get Improved Uncanny Dodge, because Metamagic Rager DIDN'T trade out Uncanny Dodge; at 11th level you get an actual Rage Power even if the Primalist archetype is banned; at 15th level you get some wimpy DR/- (but it's actually not too shabby against many ranged attacks from Small and Medium creatures that haven't specialized in making ranged attacks punch through DR); at 19th level you get a redundant Greater Rage, but you probably aren't going to get that far anyway.

(**)Eldritch Scion Magus and Mindblade Magus and the related Phantom Blade Spiritualist have the same problem.

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