In a different thread there was an off-topic discussion that got buried in a lot of other off-topic posts. I think it is interesting enough to bring back up that discussion in its own thread.
The question is: can a minion do anything during exploration mode without being constantly commanded?
R.A.W.:
The rules are technically ambiguous. Nothing says that minions can act in exploration mode. The only way that minions get to act is when the master spends an action giving commands in encounter mode.
However, actions don't exist in exploration mode. There are no rules in exploration mode for giving a minion commands. So from a strict RAW reading by a devil trying to hamper the party, I could rule that a minion is incapable of traveling with the party. They are unable to use any exploration activities, even to travel. And you would have to houserule a new exploration activity to give the minion commands every 6 seconds if you are going to extrapolate from encounter mode rules.
Lore, setting, and immersion:
Minion creatures are generally fairly intelligent. Animal Companions are not overly intelligent, but familiars and hired helpers are. Having them be completely incapable of doing anything that takes more than 6 seconds to accomplish without being told again to do it doesn't make sense.
Game balance:
The restriction on minions taking actions during encounter mode is a game mechanic designed to prevent one player from taking too much time during a round. The idea being that a ranger and animal companion with 6 actions between them is too much more powerful than a ranger with no animal companion.
Minion characters can generally be categorized as either combat minions or non-combat minions. Animal companions are a combat minion. Familiars are more non-combat minion (they can be used in combat, but it takes a lot of planning for them to be effective at all). Hired minions could be of either type and may perhaps be useful in both cases.
It does not feel balanced to allow combat minions to have their full potential allowed, but prevent non-combat minions from doing anything outside of combat.
Conclusion and ruling:
During exploration and downtime, minion characters can do things and be useful.
Intelligent minions can choose an exploration activity, and all minions can be commanded to take an exploration activity. They are allowed to use exploration activities for an indefinite amount of time without further commands.
Now, you are unlikely to convince me to run things differently. But I am curious how other people run the game and (more importantly) why.
The Minion rules only apply to encounter mode. So, outside encounter mode, it's up to the GM.
Animal Companions are quite easy to define, as they are animals (a bit above average, but still animals). So it's quite easy to determine what an animal can do.
For Familiars, it will strongly depend on the way the GM sees Familiars. There are unfortunately no strict guidelines on how intelligent a Familiar is. One can use PF1 rules as a guideline, but some rules have changed between PF1 and PF2 and as such it would just be a GM choice. The only thing we know is that Familiars are somewhat intelligent as the setting paints them that way.
I agree with you that Minions should be able to take Exploration activities, but most of them are a bit above their paygrade. Animal Companions don't know what a trap is, and may not even know that this thing is an enemy. So I would object to an Animal using any activity asking for a little bit of intelligence.
Familiars are in general on your shoulders and as such can't perform most of the Exploration activity as they ask for the creature to move (you can't Scout, Search and such if you are unable to move by yourself).
Now, if your Familiar is not on your shoulder but moving around, I'd say why not. I'll certainly ask for the familiar to have the Independent ability unless you want it to perform a very simple task.
If the Minion is an Eidolon or an intelligent creature (like a summoned one), I'd allow an Exploration Activity like any PC.
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RAW it would follow the Improvising New [Exploration] Activities rules linked here.
After all, the way that you get your minions to actually do something useful for you is to command them, so the answer is pretty simple in my opinion: just command them every turn. That being said, if your GM requires this even for the minion just following you around and not doing an actual exploration activity, then they've almost certainly got a toxic "GM vs Player" mentality, and I'd either talk to them about it or look for another group.
Regarding specific exploration activities you command them to do the question becomes what they should be able to do with their skillset, but that isn't really an exploration question, but rather a question of what basic actions they can do in general, and I think that might be out of scope for this thread.
Of course, a GM could overrule any of this, especially if the activity you want them to do is simple enough that they should be able to do it and report back to you without further explanation past the initial order. This is the same reason why "follow me" probably shouldn't require constant commands from the player to get a minion to travel with you.
RAW it would follow the Improvising New [Exploration] Activities rules linked here.
After all, the way that you get your minions to actually do something useful for you is to command them, so the answer is pretty simple in my opinion: just command them every turn. That being said, if your GM requires this even for the minion just following you around and not doing an actual exploration activity, then they've almost certainly got a toxic "GM vs Player" mentality, and I'd either talk to them about it or look for another group.
I don't see it as toxic as not allowing the character to get 2 exploration activities: they have to command in encounters to not get a huge leg up of other characters so why would exploration allow them to double their actions vs others? Should a animal companion and a familiar allow the character to have THREE activities vs the other characters? Doesn't seem toxic for a DM to say no they shouldn't especially when feats that allow extra Exploration actions are very narrow in what they do and require class feats where minions would allow ANY...
Of course, a GM could overrule any of this, especially if the activity you want them to do is simple enough that they should be able to do it and report back to you without further explanation past the initial order. This is the same reason why "follow me" probably shouldn't require constant commands from the player to get a minion to travel with you.
Following is a genuine issue: IMO, I think 1/2 movement would be fair as that comes out to 1/2 an action/6 seconds until the minion can get an action without command [like Independent].
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the rules are silent and incomplete
and my group is so fed up with that being so excessively prevalent in this version that we almost quit PF2e entirely solely because of these swiss cheese aspects of the rules
instead, we have gone with not playing the parts where that is the case (no, we are not gonna write a single sentence, let alone multiple paragraphs of stuff, to cover what should have been covered)
in this specific example, for us, minions and familiars do not exist out of combat; winking into existence when roll initiative is called, then winking back out once that’s over
yes, it makes it interesting playing my gnome witch beastmaster
but this is infinitely more preferable to all but completely having to weave stuff out of nothing into whole cloth
call it our Emperor has No Clothes alternative
I don't see it as toxic as not allowing the character to get 2 exploration activities: they have to command in encounters to not get a huge leg up of other characters so why would exploration allow them to double their actions vs others? Should a animal companion and a familiar allow the character to have THREE activities vs the other characters? Doesn't seem toxic for a DM to say no they shouldn't especially when feats that allow extra Exploration actions are very narrow in what they do and require class feats where minions would allow ANY...RAW it would follow the Improvising New [Exploration] Activities rules linked here.
After all, the way that you get your minions to actually do something useful for you is to command them, so the answer is pretty simple in my opinion: just command them every turn. That being said, if your GM requires this even for the minion just following you around and not doing an actual exploration activity, then they've almost certainly got a toxic "GM vs Player" mentality, and I'd either talk to them about it or look for another group.
The "toxic" mentality I was referring to was if your GM claimed that you had to use your exploration activity commanding a minion (thus requiring slower travel speed and removing your ability to use an exploration activity) to simply have your animal companion, familiar, or other minion walk along side you. I believe I made it pretty clear that letting the minion do an actual exploration activity makes sense to require you to use an action commanding them as a form of improvised activity... Sooo, yeah, I'm not sure what you mean by allowing players to get 2 exploration activities, or 3 with a companion and a familiar.
Of course, a GM could overrule any of this, especially if the activity you want them to do is simple enough that they should be able to do it and report back to you without further explanation past the initial order. This is the same reason why "follow me" probably shouldn't require constant commands from the player to get a minion to travel with you.Following is a genuine issue: IMO, I think 1/2 movement would be fair as that comes out to 1/2 an action/6 seconds until the minion can get an action without command [like Independent].
First of all, half movement comes out to a full action every 6 seconds. Look at all the defined exploration activities that cost 1 action to do like avoid notice and defend. They cause you to move at half speed.
Second, I know minions aren't exactly supposed to be the most independent things, but are you really telling me that if I HIRE someone to carry my stuff, for example, then I should have to walk at half speed and micromanage them to make sure they don't just stop moving in the middle of the desert never to be heard from again? Even with the animal companion. Why would a fiercely loyal ally just randomly stop following me or walk off in a random direction or something?
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It's entirely reasonable that during Exploration an Animal may be able to notice a creature before the party because of their sharpened senses (and mainly Scent).
Most things an enemy does is against your Perception DC, and most minions are going to have equal to or less than what you would have, so that's not really an issue. The issue would be allowing players with Minions to get multiple rolls to detect a hazard. Once this is allowed, everyone will pick up a Familiar just to get that second roll.
So I would say that Familiars and Animal Companions don't really have Exploration activities. Some automatic abilities like Scent can help out, but they wouldn't get their own rolls to perceive hazards like a PC does.
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are you really telling me that if I HIRE someone to carry my stuff, for example, then I should have to walk at half speed and micromanage them to make sure they don't just stop moving in the middle of the desert never to be heard from again?
yes
good help was really hard to find beforeand it’s all but impossible now
plus even if you are able to find any, it requires significant amounts of micromanaging to get anything done
If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.
though I guess someone will argue ‘unattended’ means ‘out of sight’, unaccompanied, or something other than ‘been more than a fraction of a minute since receiving an order’
I left my hireling unattended for only a brief moment and now look at this mess!
well, after a minute, they act how they please
though like unattended above, I’m sure this will be sufficient for a lexical debate to ensue¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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well, after a minute, they act how they please
And as such they can continue to follow the previous order.
I act how I please all the time, still, my boss can be quite sure I'll do my job.Also, the rules speak of being unattended. If I travel with my Animal Companion, it is not unattended.
So, the rules are not causing any issue.
If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.seems clear, unambiguous, comprehensive even
that is, no holes there
I left my hireling unattended for only a brief moment and now look at this mess!well, after a minute, they act how they please
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't see anything antithetical to my point there. Addressing each one in turn:
1. A mindless minion wasn't really a part of how I saw the question, but I guess it is a relevant point, so thanks for bringing that up. For them you'd have to command them to follow you repeatedly. Though, interestingly, it sounds like you only need to check in with them every minute or so to get them to do something simple like following you as opposed to every 6 seconds. That's actually way more lenient than I would be for mindless minions.
2. An animal that's more strongly bonded to you than a pet will follow it's instincts... and stay close to the player. I mean, yes, you have to keep an eye on your pets or hold a leash or something IRL, but that doesn't make you move at half walking speed, nor does it require intense focus.
3. For a human it's just plain obvious that they may not do exactly what you want, but if a porter randomly stops following the person who hired them because that's what they wanted to do after a minute of no one giving them an order, then they're not going to be in business for long. That being said, if you hire some random person to carry your valuable equipment for you and explicitly say he's in the back and everyone else is busy doing stuff that would keep them from noticing him for a full hour or something, then I wouldn't be too surprised if you turn around to see that he's stolen your stuff XD
The rule you quoted is just explaining common sense.
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Though, interestingly, it sounds like you only need to check in with them every minute or so to get them to do something simple like following you as opposed to every 6 seconds. That's actually way more lenient than I would be for mindless minions.
For a mindless minion, I’m not sure why you’d need to check in with them at all between changes in instruction, unless you’re legitimately leaving them somewhere. “Follow me” when you set out seems sufficient to me for however long you’re traveling side by side.
I mean, yes, you have to keep an eye on your pets or hold a leash or something IRL, but that doesn't make you move at half walking speed, nor does it require intense focus.
Arguably, even if we set aside all the other stat adjustments, most pet IRL pets are probably more like animals that, in game terms, are Friendly or Helpful, and those that are extremely well-trained would still be closer to the Bonded Animal feat than an actual Animal Companion.
I’ve GMed a party that included an Animal Companion and a Familiar from level 1 to 15 and it literally never occurred to me or anyone to wonder what the minions were doing during Exploration mode. They’ve just trucked along with the group. I suppose it’s possible I’ve had the players make Stealth rolls for them in Exploration mode at some point, but I don’t recall that specifically.
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In Society games, I usually just ignore the minions outside of combat. They're more of a class feature now rather than an additional party member, so for skill challenges I just say they can follow along as part of the checks. Though if they go into a tiny area and have a large mount, they may have to leave it behind.
Once they come out, Eidolons are where things get interesting. Since they share actions I would probably allow the Eidolon or the Summoner to do the skill check, but not both.
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I’ve GMed a party that included an Animal Companion and a Familiar from level 1 to 15 and it literally never occurred to me or anyone to wonder what the minions were doing during Exploration mode. They’ve just trucked along with the group. I suppose it’s possible I’ve had the players make Stealth rolls for them in Exploration mode at some point, but I don’t recall that specifically.
If I was playing a Witch, would you have let me have my familiar repair a shield during a 10-minute rest (assuming that I had given it the needed abilities to do so)? Would you have allowed it to do so while I was also doing a Refocus during that same 10-minute time?
Because things like that are where rulings on this become more important. If a character is putting build investment into their familiar, is it allowed to do things? Or is it only in combat that minions are able to do anything important?
First of all, half movement comes out to a full action every 6 seconds. Look at all the defined exploration activities that cost 1 action to do like avoid notice and defend. They cause you to move at half speed.
Second, I know minions aren't exactly supposed to be the most independent things, but are you really telling me that if I HIRE someone to carry my stuff, for example, then I should have to walk at half speed and micromanage them to make sure they don't just stop moving in the middle of the desert never to be heard from again? Even with the animal companion. Why would a fiercely loyal ally just randomly stop following me or walk off in a random direction or something?
#1, Improvising New Activities, Gamemastery Guide pg. 19, "For example, if the PC are Swimming as they explore, consider that travel speeds are based on the equivalent of 1 action per 6 seconds, and that other exploration activities the PCs can keep up without getting tired are generally based on alternating between 2 actions per 12 seconds, averaging to 1 action per 6 seconds. (Defend, for example, is based on using 1 action to Stride then 1 to Raise your Shield, which is why the PC moves at half Speed.)" So 1 action of movement per 6 seconds is a exploration activity, not 1/2 an action per round. It's like the Defend action but without raising a shield so 1 full action every other round or 1/2 per round.
PS: and for the record, I suggested that minions just be allowed to follow at 1/2 speed without command as a houserule because it's pretty lame without it. It doesn't change what I see the rules as though.
#2 Hireling are true independent creatures: minions specifically aren't. They are specifically incapable of action without being commanded except under specific conditions like leaving your minion for a minute or escaping/defending when attacked: following their master isn't one of those actions. As to why? I don't think anyone is arguing that the minion rules make a lick of logical sense: they are in place as an action limiter so the PC doesn't get multiple creatures worth of actions compared to others. Nothing about exploration changes that nor changes the logic. For instance, in combat the answer to "Why would a fiercely loyal ally just randomly stop following me" is you haven't commanded it so why does the answer stop making sense in exploration? It it LESS loyal in combat?
In Society games, I usually just ignore the minions outside of combat. They're more of a class feature now rather than an additional party member, so for skill challenges I just say they can follow along as part of the checks. Though if they go into a tiny area and have a large mount, they may have to leave it behind.
Once they come out, Eidolons are where things get interesting. Since they share actions I would probably allow the Eidolon or the Summoner to do the skill check, but not both.
It's going to be interesting: just 1/2 movement from both of them takes up your total actions per round unless you start strenuous activities that exhaust you. I'm honestly hoping they don't work as they did in the playtest and drop the shared hp and actions.
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It's going to be interesting: just 1/2 movement from both of them takes up your total actions per round unless you start strenuous activities that exhaust you. I'm honestly hoping they don't work as they did in the playtest and drop the shared hp and actions.In Society games, I usually just ignore the minions outside of combat. They're more of a class feature now rather than an additional party member, so for skill challenges I just say they can follow along as part of the checks. Though if they go into a tiny area and have a large mount, they may have to leave it behind.
Once they come out, Eidolons are where things get interesting. Since they share actions I would probably allow the Eidolon or the Summoner to do the skill check, but not both.
Well they have Tandem abilities, where using one action lets both act, so their total action economy will get pretty hectic. Can't wait for the book though! I want to see if I can recreate my level 20 PF1 Magus.
Well they have Tandem abilities, where using one action lets both act, so their total action economy will get pretty hectic. Can't wait for the book though! I want to see if I can recreate my level 20 PF1 Magus.
True, I forgot Tandem. As such, they could cheese out multiple exploration activities. I too want to see the book but I don't know if I'll say I'm excited: I wasn't too pleased with where the classes where at the end of the playtest so I'm not sure what I'll find from the new book. Hoping for the best but prepared for the worst. ;)
#1, Improvising New Activities, Gamemastery Guide pg. 19, "For example, if the PC are Swimming as they explore, consider that travel speeds are based on the equivalent of 1 action per 6 seconds, and that other exploration activities the PCs can keep up without getting tired are generally based on alternating between 2 actions per 12 seconds, averaging to 1 action per 6 seconds."
#2 Hireling are true independent creatures: minions specifically aren't. They are specifically incapable of action without being commanded except under specific conditions like leaving your minion for a minute or escaping/defending when attacked: following their master isn't one of those actions. As to why? I don't think anyone is arguing that the minion rules make a lick of logical sense: they are in place as an action limiter so the PC doesn't get multiple creatures worth of actions compared to others. Nothing about exploration changes that nor changes the logic. For instance, in combat the answer to "Why would a fiercely loyal ally just randomly stop following me" is you haven't commanded it so why does the answer stop making sense in exploration? Is it LESS loyal in combat?
#1 I will concede this, you're right. I misread how the logic of action economy in exploration mode went.
#2... I'm going to have to break that down a bit to properly respond.
#2.1 I never actually mentioned hirelings specifically, but rather someone that I hired. I was referencing the original post which mentioned hired minions, as well as the mention of sapient minions in the post I was directly replying to. I'm not sure if those exist in the game right now (I haven't looked), but the rules are there for them, and I was commenting on how that would work in the game-world. I can see how this wouldn't be clear, though.
#2.2 Regarding the distinction between the in game logic of commanding an animal in combat and in exploration mode I see the main distinction as a matter of the complexity of the situation. Combat, and, in fact, encounter mode in general is complicated. And not only that, but the stakes are also higher and/or more immediate, and making a wrong action is more dangerous. After all, if your last command was to attack and then the enemy surrendered, but your minion was still attacking, then that could cause a problem. Or even if your order was based on movement: how would the minion know if it's optimal position has changed since your last order? So no, they're not less loyal in combat, they just don't know what to do and/or are too overwhelmed by the situation to do it.
#2.3 Let's not forget that this is a game. As you mentioned, the rules for commanding minions "are in place as an action limiter so the PC doesn't get multiple creatures worth of actions compared to others." From a gameplay perspective this is kept perfectly intact by allowing them to walk with you (but not do exploration activities of their own) without repeatedly commanding them. Without it you are actually limited to less creatures worth of actions compared to others because you have to babysit your minion.
#2.3.2 Btw, from a mechanics perspective this specifically nerfs minions and familiars that are your size or smaller, because anything larger than you (whether they're have the mount trait or not) could be commanded to move once per 6 seconds while carrying you and not lose any speed.
P.S. I actually said in my original post that you replied to that by RAW anything with the minion trait would require an improvised activity to command them, taking up your exploration activity. The contention and the thing you specifically replied to was around whether a GM who enforces that for simply traveling with you is... let's just say that it's a little sus, and I'd talk to them about it if I was a player to see where their headspace is at the very least. So we actually agree on RAW, btw (if I'm understanding you correctly). I know you didn't reply to that part of my post this time around, but it's relevant I think, because you brought up both the in-game logic and RAW. I was not arguing RAW in the post you replied to.
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I don't think any GM would let my Witch character consider repairing a shield to be a valid Refocus overlap activity. I certainly wouldn't.
Also the abilities that a familiar can do can change dramatically from day to day. So if one day I have my familiar repairing shields and other equipment, the next day I could have it running around doing Treat Wounds instead.
So maybe for a Witch, 'commanding my familiar for 10 minutes' would be a valid Refocus activity. I don't think that would work for a Wizard or Druid though.
This is heading directly into what graystone is talking about earlier in the thread. Maybe it is too much to allow a character with a familiar to do multiple things during exploration. Things like, 'I will be using Detect Magic while traveling down the corridors, my familiar will be checking for traps.' Personally I don't think it is since every character that has a familiar had to get it by paying feats for it (except for Witch characters - they have to pay for it in their core class chassis instead).
#2.1 I never actually mentioned hirelings specifically, but rather someone that I hired. I was referencing the original post which mentioned hired minions, as well as the mention of sapient minions in the post I was directly replying to.
I took it as a hireling as I haven't seen any hired minions: if they do become a thing, I'd expect them to work like any other minion unless they come with a specific rule to change that.
#2.2 Regarding the distinction between the in game logic of commanding an animal in combat and in exploration mode
I don't see how it's less overwhelmed when it would have to, instead of following orders, have to instead make every single action on it's own. IMO, that is more overwhelming than just following orders. For instance, if you ask it to scout it has to figure out direction, if each movement is something important, is that noise any out of the ordinary, ect. That's a lot more thinking than following a command. As such, I don't agree with your logic: if anything I see it the opposite way.
#2.3 Let's not forget that this is a game. As you mentioned, the rules for commanding minions "are in place as an action limiter so the PC doesn't get multiple creatures worth of actions compared to others." From a gameplay perspective this is kept perfectly intact by allowing them to walk with you (but not do exploration activities of their own) without repeatedly commanding them.
I agree and I think it would be a very good houserule: I just look at the rules and it's just not there: at best, the rules look like someone with a minion would have to use their exploration action to have both themselves and their minion move 1/2 speed. That sounds lame, and NOT how I'd do it, but that's how it looks to me.
Without it you are actually limited to less creatures worth of actions compared to others because you have to babysit your minion.
I don't disagree but we are talking about a binary choice: Free movement isn't one of the options as/is. Again, I'm fine with it but it's not what I see the rules saying.
PS: Sorry if there was some confusion between how I see RAW and what actually works best in a game: as a Rules Discussion thread, my answer is the RAW answer.
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This is heading directly into what graystone is talking about earlier in the thread. Maybe it is too much to allow a character with a familiar to do multiple things during exploration. Things like, 'I will be using Detect Magic while traveling down the corridors, my familiar will be checking for traps.' Personally I don't think it is since every character that has a familiar had to get it by paying feats for it (except for Witch characters - they have to pay for it in their core class chassis instead).
They had to pay a feat but look at other feats that allow multiple exploration activities.
Ongoing Investigation [Feat 4]: specifically for use another exploration activity while Investigating.
Careful Explorer [Feat 4]: Even if you aren’t Searching in exploration mode, you get a check to find traps.
So it doesn't seem equitable that a 1st level ancestry/class feat [or free class option] gets to pick EVERY exploration activity as an extra activity when everyone else has to pick a feat for each and every exploration activity they want as an extra.
This is heading directly into what graystone is talking about earlier in the thread. Maybe it is too much to allow a character with a familiar to do multiple things during exploration. Things like, 'I will be using Detect Magic while traveling down the corridors, my familiar will be checking for traps.' Personally I don't think it is since every character that has a familiar had to get it by paying feats for it (except for Witch characters - they have to pay for it in their core class chassis instead).They had to pay a feat but look at other feats that allow multiple exploration activities.
Ongoing Investigation [Feat 4]: specifically for use another exploration activity while Investigating.
Careful Explorer [Feat 4]: Even if you aren’t Searching in exploration mode, you get a check to find traps.
So it doesn't seem equitable that a 1st level ancestry/class feat [or free class option] gets to pick EVERY exploration activity as an extra activity when everyone else has to pick a feat for each and every exploration activity they want as an extra.
That is a fair point. But how much of a problem is that actually going to cause?
Are other characters that can only do one exploration activity going to feel slighted as a result?
From looking at the math on it, the familiar is going to be better than a character that has little training or ability scores supporting the activity, but noticeably worse than a character that was built to support the activity. A familiar repairing a shield is going to be better than an Oracle with little training in craft trying it, but is not going to be as good as an Alchemist. So generally, the familiar is going to be used to shore up weaknesses or holes in the party. Used in cases where there isn't any other character that could do it better.
So I don't think that the Cleric, Barbarian, or Fighter who didn't build for Covering Tracks is going to be complaining that the Witch's familiar is passable at taking on that role. And if there was a Ranger in the party, the Witch would probably let the Ranger do the track covering since the Ranger could do it better anyway.
#2.2 Regarding the distinction between the in game logic of commanding an animal in combat and in exploration modeI don't see how it's less overwhelmed when it would have to, instead of following orders, have to instead make every single action on it's own. IMO, that is more overwhelming than just following orders. For instance, if you ask it to scout it has to figure out direction, if each movement is something important, is that noise any out of the ordinary, etc. That's a lot more thinking than following a command. As such, I don't agree with your logic: if anything I see it the opposite way.
Again, the point in contention is around moving from one location to another via following their master, nothing more than that. No scouting is involved here, as I've always said that both RAW and practically speaking an extra exploration activity is too much to do without commanding the minion as an exploration activity yourself. You may be confusing what I've said for some other people's posts in this thread.
But then again, as you mentioned earlier, it's not like the action economy of minions ever really made sense anyway.As for the rest of what you said: Fair enough, especially since this is a rules thread. I should've kept that in mind and not assumed that you understand my intentions. I thought they were clear based on my wording and the quotes I was replying to, but I can certainly see how that might not be the case.
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That is a fair point. But how much of a problem is that actually going to cause?
Are other characters that can only do one exploration activity going to feel slighted as a result?
I have: Had a rogue that was pretty miffed that the ranger could search and track while the wizard was detecting magic and investigating and the only thing he could do was Avoid Notice and look for traps: He was really irked when the companion saw a secret door that he couldn't roll on because he was limited to traps only.
PS: If case you're wondering how this came up, we specifically set up a game with 2 players with minions what could act as PC's for exploration activities and 2 players that had multiple exploration activities. I have to say, even as an Investigator with 3 exploration activities active at once, it was annoying to someone just get to freely pick an extra activity on the fly for free. Needless to say, we voted against adding that houserule after the trial run.
From looking at the math on it, the familiar is going to be better than a character that has little training or ability scores supporting the activity, but noticeably worse than a character that was built to support the activity.
Things like scout just don't have a roll and others, and other like treat wounds or repair have lower level DC's to shoot for: so even at a slower pace, it's a pretty big boon to do that for free: for instance the gnome champion that's lay on hands/refocusing having his shield fixed for free by his familiar. In addition, even if it's lower, a free chance to see a trap, secret door or hidden enemy isn't a bad thing even if it has less of a chance to work.
So generally, the familiar is going to be used to shore up weaknesses or holes in the party. Used in cases where there isn't any other character that could do it better.
It's pure bonus: if NOTHING else, it's a free scout for a bonus to everyone's initiative that someone else doesn't have to take. Or free perception checks...
So I don't think that the Cleric, Barbarian, or Fighter who didn't build for Covering Tracks is going to be complaining that the Witch's familiar is passable at taking on that role. And if there was a Ranger in the party, the Witch would probably let the Ranger do the track covering since the Ranger could do it better anyway.
Sure, but what then happens when to then does something you've spent resources to so for free? That's the thing with it not being a set activity but ANY of them. It doesn't need to be covering holes and often, those holes don't need covered.
There are unfortunately no strict guidelines on how intelligent a Familiar is.
Lost Omens Legends has a familiar that gives lectures to humanoid students on the usage of insects in the practice of alchemy so, yeah, they can have quite a bit of potential in that area. By all accounts he purportedly does a fine job teaching them too. :)
There are unfortunately no strict guidelines on how intelligent a Familiar is.Lost Omens Legends has a familiar that gives lectures to humanoid students on the usage of insects in the practice of alchemy so, yeah, they can have quite a bit of potential in that area. By all accounts he purportedly does a fine job teaching them too. :)
Not really an indicator of intelligence though, but more one of it's masters spell casting stat + level. Say the familiar is given Independent, Speech and Skilled [lore: usage of insects in the practice of alchemy], it could be either as dumb as a rock or an erudite philosopher and still rolls it's masters level + it's masters spell casting stat for it's Earn Income check for teaching.
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Summoners are the only ones with companions that get an action for exploration, due to tandem action. Mark went over it in the primary thread in the summoner forum.
They also both get to do skill checks at the same time.
For your minion to get an exploration action you would have to spend your action commanding it.
Not really an indicator of intelligence though, but more one of it's masters spell casting stat + level. Say the familiar is given Independent, Speech and Skilled [lore: usage of insects in the practice of alchemy], it could be either as dumb as a rock or an erudite philosopher and still rolls it's masters level + it's masters spell casting stat for it's Earn Income check for teaching.There are unfortunately no strict guidelines on how intelligent a Familiar is.Lost Omens Legends has a familiar that gives lectures to humanoid students on the usage of insects in the practice of alchemy so, yeah, they can have quite a bit of potential in that area. By all accounts he purportedly does a fine job teaching them too. :)
It's a pretty good indicator of at least human-level/sentient intelligence.
Summoners are the only ones with companions that get an action for exploration, due to tandem action. Mark went over it in the primary thread in the summoner forum.
They also both get to do skill checks at the same time.
For your minion to get an exploration action you would have to spend your action commanding it.
Yeah? Well I just find that silly!
;P
It's a pretty good indicator of at least human-level/sentient intelligence.
Not really: you can program an AI to give pretty realistic speech pattern and you can have Alexa/Siri teach you thing but that doesn't make them human-level/sentient intelligence: making a skill check doesn't make them "human-level". I can pick up a computer program to teach me Spanish but that doesn't make my laptop sentient. After all, the familiar has as much knowledge as the laptop does: without the master it has NO trained skills that require higher intelligence and even if they gain them, they can be changed on a daily basis. A pathfinder equivalent would be robots: while they can use skills and communicate, they aren't sentient.
Nothing indicates any level of sapience or mental initiative. In fact the basic familiar is an animal and minion lists animals separately from sapient minions. Now some specific familiars indicate differently, but that is "specific" to them.
Yeah? Well I just find that silly!
;P
I'd find it silly if it didn't work that way. ;)
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They are specifically incapable of action without being commanded
That's nowhere in the rules.
You can play it like that as a GM, but it's both a houserule and against the spirit of the rules (Animal Companions are animals, and as such can act on their own without being commanded, they are not frozen in place).I laugh when a GM explains me that if I don't command my flying Bird Animal Companion it falls to the ground! How to read the rules to especially make up crazy things...
That's nowhere in the rules.
Ah... That's minion. It's quite explicit: "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm." So if I'm in exploration mode, all I have to ask myself is did I command my minion? "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm": so no following for free. No scouting. No free exploration. It's in black and white.
You can play it like that as a GM, but it's both a houserule and against the spirit of the rules (Animal Companions are animals, and as such can act on their own without being commanded, they are not frozen in place).
No, it's specifically the houserule to let them have actions/activities without being commanded unless it's fleeing, defending or a specific ability that overrides that. I'm not saying it's a BAD one either, but it is what it is.
I laugh when a GM explains me that if I don't command my flying Bird Animal Companion it falls to the ground! How to read the rules to especially make up crazy things...
Falling is harmful, so the "escape obvious harm" clause kicks in if it's more that 5' high. If it is 5' or less, then yes they fall out of the air unless the landing spot is itself harmful.
You know, waking up and rereading a couple things I'm actually less convinced that by RAW they don't follow you. It's still pretty clear to me they can't do complicated things like scout and whatnot, but for simply following I feel like the backup clause regarding minions left unattended for more than a minute is notable when explaining why they might follow you by RAW (though, not if it's mindless).
"If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please."
I can easily see the argument that a pet that's willing to follow any command you give it and fight along side you would, when following its instincts, stick around you in general.
This is further backed up by the quite frankly absurd situations that arise if this isn't the case. For example, what happens if a level 20 adventurer with an animal companion that they spent a week obtaining goes to sleep? If we assume that the animal holds no loyalty to him after 1 minute and "following it's instincts" in no way considers their bond, then every night this PC would have to strap down his animal companion in such a way that it can't escape before he wakes up despite it being LEVEL 20! Okay, okay, that was a bit of an exaggeration. It wouldn't happen every night, since most nights adventuring at least one person would be awake at any given point in time, and so it wouldn't be unattended. But are you really expecting me to believe that by RAW someone has to watch an animal companion every minute of every day and night otherwise it'll turn into a random beast and wander off? Because that's pretty much the same level of restriction that not letting it simply follow the party from one location to another is.
You know, waking up and rereading a couple things I'm actually less convinced that by RAW they don't follow you. It's still pretty clear to me they can't do complicated things like scout and whatnot, but for simply following I feel like the backup clause regarding minions left unattended for more than a minute is notable when explaining why they might follow you by RAW (though, not if it's mindless).
"If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please."I can easily see the argument that a pet that's willing to follow any command you give it and fight along side you would, when following its instincts, stick around you in general.
I don't really see it: the same thing that would happen with a normal horse would happen with an unattended companion. For instance, a dog might be loyal but I often see people put them on leashes or tied to something much like you'd tie a loyal horse to a hitching post. So IMO loyalty is a meaningless metric.
This is further backed up by the quite frankly absurd situations that arise if this isn't the case. For example, what happens if a level 20 adventurer with an animal companion that they spent a week obtaining goes to sleep?
Most likely the companion sleeps too?
If we assume that the animal holds no loyalty to him after 1 minute and "following it's instincts" in no way considers their bond, then every night this PC would have to strap down his animal companion in such a way that it can't escape before he wakes up despite it being LEVEL 20!
There is a difference between loyalty and independent action. The instinct of a loyal pet when it can't be commanded is different from one that's ready to be commanded.
But are you really expecting me to believe that by RAW someone has to watch an animal companion every minute of every day and night otherwise it'll turn into a random beast and wander off?
I'd expect you to believe that the companion follows it's instinct to sleep and you then don't run into any issue.
Because that's pretty much the same level of restriction that not letting it simply follow the party from one location to another is.
Pretty much I see no reason for the companion to run wild when unattended just as I see no reason under the rules that a familiar gets free action without commands. Instincts only kick in if you leave them so it's only follow after you've left command range for 1 min... Sure you can do that but that leaves your companion out of range a lot of the time.
That's nowhere in the rules.Ah... That's minion. It's quite explicit: "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm."
That's only for combat.
Luckily, it would be quite a waste of time if I had to stand by my Animal Companion while it's in the toilets...
That's only for combat.
No, what I quoted in no way references combat. Even the quote " Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands" is referencing WHEN the familiar acts in combat: it doesn't act as a limiter on command only in combat. "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm" in no references combat. Even improvised exploration activities references the actions used in Encounter mode as does specific ones: actions and turns still happen in encounter mode it's just that you track them on a per turn recurring fashion instead of tracking distinct individual turns.
Luckily, it would be quite a waste of time if I had to stand by my Animal Companion while it's in the toilets...
Well, it takes just as much time there as the PC's do for thet... So, no waste of time ;)
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Respectfully, we disagree, graystone. Familiar intelligence level is ambiguous, but they are not mindless robots incapable of doing anything except follow pre-programmed instructions.
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@graystone
1. If a leash or keeping them in a stable is enough to keep them from running away, then casually holding onto a leash or walking beside them while guiding them, a very easy task that wouldn't slow someone's walking speed down by 50%, should be enough to keep them following you. Also, let's not forget that a level 20 animal could easily just walk out of a stable or snap a leash without breaking a sweat. This is not the case for where normal animals are kept IRL.
This is why I brought up the difficulty of keeping them from abandoning you if you leave them unattended at high levels.
2. Yes, sometimes they'll sleep, but at the exact right time that they won't be awake for a single minute without you? Because a single minute is apparently all you need for it to do whatever it wants.
3. I don't even see your point here. What's so different about loyally not trying to run away or following something that peaks your interest and loyally staying by someone's side when they're casually walking and maybe holding a leash? Both require it limiting where it should be and not wandering off. One is just stationary while the other is mobile, but both have an easy reference point to follow. "Stay here" and "Stay by my side" are very similar in terms of difficulty for an animal to understand and be willing to follow given outside stimuli that makes them want to do something else.
4. See 2.
5.1 As this is a summary of your position and not really a point in itself, see points 1-4.
5.2 I'm not sure where this whole "leave them" and "command range" thing is coming from when talking about them being unattended. The only rules on attended vs unattended are for objects, which mention being held, worn, etc. This is clearly not what is meant by unattended here, but then, why are we assuming that unattended means out of "command range"? Which also isn't a thing, btw. As far as I can tell commanding an animal has no defined range, and is based on whether or not the animal can hear you as it has the auditory trait, and for familiars you can even communicate telepathically with them up to 1 mile away, so what exactly would "command range" even mean, and why is it what's necessary for it to be "unattended"?
So if you're conceding that leaving them unattended would cause them to follow you, then I have nothing further to add. Note: I know you're not conceding that. I take it what you said at the end was more of a hypothetical to counter someone who disagrees with your other points about what happens when it's not commanded, saying that even if it's unattended it's not great for the players. I'm just claiming that I don't think that argument works as intended.
doesn’t this come down to what ‘unattended’ means?
Minion
...
If given no commands, by default minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals often indulge their creature comforts, and sapient minions act how they please.
unattended generally means not supervised, not looked after, not taking a measurable amount of your time
with the phrases of “given no commands, by default minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm” and “left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute”, arguing thataccompanied, nearby by, in the vicinity, not alone, not taking a third of my time aka ‘1 of 3 actions I have’ seems a stretch to qualify as ‘not unattended’ in this context
of course, it does say “usually”, though usually is generally meant as ‘more often than otherwise’, mostly do nothing but on some less than common occasions do otherwise than nothing?
That's only for combat.No, what I quoted in no way references combat.
and this
the rules make no mention of circumstance aka during encounter mode or outside of encounter modeminims are commanded or ... they (after a short period of time) go about doing their own thing
Respectfully, we disagree, graystone. Familiar intelligence level is ambiguous, but they are not mindless robots incapable of doing anything except follow pre-programmed instructions.
I mean, you can houserule anything you wish in your game. "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm" SEEMS crystal clear to me.
@graystone
1. If a leash or keeping them in a stable is enough to keep them from running away, then casually holding onto a leash or walking beside them while guiding them, a very easy task that wouldn't slow someone's walking speed down by 50%, should be enough to keep them following you.
Different situations: one it's attended and one it's not. Attended the minion is waiting for orders so you'd literally have to drag them along with the leash. As to "wouldn't slow someone's walking speed down by 50%", then try walking a big dog, like a wolfhound, that has different ideas than you when you go on a walk and you have to corral them. 50% speed might be VERY generous. The dog is sitting ther waiting for you to tell it what to do and you're trying to pull it along.
Also, let's not forget that a level 20 animal could easily just walk out of a stable or snap a leash without breaking a sweat. This is not the case for where normal animals are kept IRL.
Sure it could go wandering off into the monster infested wilderness or it could sleep together with it's herd/pack. If you and the DM wish it to, sure go for it but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
2. Yes, sometimes they'll sleep, but at the exact right time that they won't be awake for a single minute without you? Because a single minute is apparently all you need for it to do whatever it wants.
The game has EXACT amounts of time for resting, so yes, you wake up at the exact same times. We aren't talking about real life.
3. I don't even see your point here. What's so different about loyally not trying to run away or following something that peaks your interest and loyally staying by someone's side when they're casually walking and maybe holding a leash?
One is the minion actively waiting for commands and one not. You train an animal to follow specific commands, and it's waiting for them: it's that loyal. It's only when you're out of sight or unconscious that it knows it's not getting commands.
5.2 I'm not sure where this whole "leave them" and "command range" thing is coming from when talking about them being unattended.
The meaning of attended and unattended and the rules: "For an animal companion, you Command an Animal; for a minion that’s a spell or magic item effect, like a summoned minion, you Sustain a Spell or Sustain an Activation; if not otherwise specified, you issue a verbal command, a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits." So for instance, a familiar requires a verbal command which means "A spell or effect with the auditory trait has its effect only if the target can hear it." Command also has Auditory trait. So once a familiar gets out of hearing range, it's not attended anymore.
Attended: "to wait upon; accompany as a companion or servant:
The retainers attended their lord.
to take charge of; watch over; look after; tend; guard:
to attend one's health.
to listen to; give heed to."
why are we assuming that unattended means out of "command range"?
The English language? Seems like a good enough reason.
familiars you can even communicate telepathically with them up to 1 mile away, so what exactly would "command range" even mean, and why is it what's necessary for it to be "unattended"?
You can't command with telepathy as it's defined as a VERBAL command.
So if you're conceding that leaving them unattended would cause them to follow you, then I have nothing further to add.
Why would I do that? The only possible way it could follow is if it stops hearing you for 1 min then it can follow until it hears you again which causes it to stop for 1 more min...
Note: I know you're not conceding that. I take it what you said at the end was more of a hypothetical to counter someone who disagrees with your other points about what happens when it's not commanded, saying that even if it's unattended it's not great for the players. I'm just claiming that I don't think that argument works as intended.
Not hypothetical, it's the way I see it. Pet rests when you do and follows you only when you command. That the rules they wrote. Not how I want them to read but I complained about them in the playtest because of it.
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Okay, there's one point that I can't just leave:
Different situations: one it's attended and one it's not. Attended the minion is waiting for orders so you'd literally have to drag them along with the leash. As to "wouldn't slow someone's walking speed down by 50%", then try walking a big dog, like a wolfhound, that has different ideas than you when you go on a walk and you have to corral them. 50% speed might be VERY generous. The dog is sitting there waiting for you to tell it what to do and you're trying to pull it along.
You're really reading this with the worst possible interpretation for the player and also the dumbest possible animal in existence that is willing to do anything its master wants, but is also insistent that it should stay where it is and is actively attempting to stay put as you pull it.
This animal, with normal animal level intelligence that we know is at least able to "follow its instincts" is sitting on the ground as its master is yanking on it thinking "Hey, stop that. I'm not moving. Why are you dragging me along? I'm waiting for an order. Still waiting... I have no idea what you want to do, so I don't know why you're getting so aggressive here." And then the only way you can suggest to it that you want it to follow you is to actively spend half your time explaining exactly where you want it to go. Minions. Are not. Robots.Also, let's not forget that actions don't inherently exist outside of combat, but rather abstractions of actions exist based on either defined exploration activities or what the GM determines makes sense based on how difficult something should be. If something that the GM determines should cost an action roughly 10 times per minute, then that's a standard exploration activity and slows your movement. 20 actions per minute usually either has limits or requires hustling, and so on. Not to mention, the level of detail in commands given in encounter mode are vastly different to the command to follow, so it makes perfect sense for it to require further precision and control every round.
Okay, rant over
But other than that I'm done... We're going in circles at this point. I think there are valid refutations to the points you made, but every time I respond you find new roundabout ways of saying the same thing while ignoring at least half of the relevant points made.
I would say I feel bad for people with minions at your table, but we've already established that you houserule this away, so that's not really fair of me to say. Still, even if we're just talking from a roleplay perspective, I'd hate it if my animal companion was treated as though it had nothing of what it once was as an animal in terms of intelligence and ability to function as a something more than a robot or a magic weapon that gains levels with me.
P.S.
"Source Core Rulebook pg. 218
Your familiar has low-light vision and can gain additional senses from familiar abilities. It can communicate empathically with you as long as it’s within 1 mile of you, sharing emotions. It doesn’t understand or speak languages normally, but it can gain speech from a familiar ability."
This is what I was referencing for familiars specifically. Though, I guess emotions aren't the same as commands. Honestly, I don't fully understand this ability, so I'll drop that.
You're really reading this with the worst possible interpretation for the player and also the dumbest possible animal in existence that is willing to do anything its master wants, but is also insistent that it should stay where it is and is actively attempting to stay put as you pull it.
I'm NOT reading the worst possible way: I'm reading the only way it works in the game. YOU are reading way to much into an animal that literally incapable of taking independent action unless it's in danger, commanded or has a special ability to do so: it SO loyal, it literally sits there waiting for you to tell it something.
This animal, with normal animal level intelligence that we know is at least able to "follow its instincts" is sitting on the ground as its master is yanking on it thinking "Hey, stop that. I'm not moving. Why are you dragging me along? I'm waiting for an order. Still waiting... I have no idea what you want to do, so I don't know why you're getting so aggressive here." And then the only way you can suggest to it that you want it to follow you is to actively spend half your time explaining exactly where you want it to go. Minions. Are not. Robots.
Sure and MASTERS aren't idiots: You'd expect the master to Command their minion to follow instead of dragging them. And we ALSO know that the animal doesn't "follow its instincts" when attended as it INSTEAD follows your commands. So YES, it literally sits there as you cruelty drag it down the street because YOU stubbornly insist on not commanding it because the rules expect you to use an action... :P
Also, let's not forget that actions don't inherently exist outside of combat
Literally untrue: just because you don't track individual actions doesn't mean they don't exist: you still have to track how many actions you are using per turn, you are limited on how long you can do some activities if you do too many actions per turn and you are unable to do too many action per turn.
what the GM determines makes sense based on how difficult something should be.
Not true: they explain it's based on actions used per turn NOT difficulty.
Not to mention, the level of detail in commands given in encounter mode are vastly different to the command to follow, so it makes perfect sense for it to require further precision and control every round.
No, there is NO difference at all. Not even a little. A command to follow is a command to follow no matter if it's in combat or out of it: it makes perfect sense that things work the same no matter the mode because "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm".
every time I respond you find new roundabout ways of saying the same thing while ignoring at least half of the relevant points made.
I haven't found them valid in overcoming the rules. There are a LOT of arguments how it should be but those don't matter much in a how it is debate. If I ignored something, I didn't think I needed to reply to it. If there is a specific thing you want my answer to, feel free to ask.
I would say I feel bad for people with minions at your table, but we've already established that you houserule this away, so that's not really fair of me to say.
I'm not a DM and have played the entire spectrum of familiar abilities from pet rock to full PC out of combat. I've from the start of the game stated I thought the actual rules are lame, so I do encourage houserules when I get input.
Still, even if we're just talking from a roleplay perspective, I'd hate it if my animal companion was treated as though it had nothing of what it once was as an animal in terms of intelligence and ability to function as a something more than a robot or a magic weapon that gains levels with me.
I don't hate it per se: it's just the difference between it acting like an item or a creature. Even in games with more latitude, an animal companion often doesn't get a lot of 'roleplay' in my experience and familiars are very hit or miss: even in the PF1 days, often the familiar was just there for the bonuses and never taken out of a pocket. As such, even in pet rock mode it might not have a noticeable effect. I know for myself, I most times don't let my familiar out of it's bag of holding since I don't need it dying from a random area attack...
communicate empathically
Command and the verbal command both have the audible trait so it's of no use in commands. This mean that hand signals, flares, scents, ect also can't be use no matter how much sense they'd make. Yep, it's lame.
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I would just like to point out something to put the game into perspective for people, you as a player never at any point in the game have control over a minion. Minions are all NPCs, you have game mechanics to suggest courses of action for them, then the GM parses that and has the minion react.
So when you aren't commanding it, it acts as a creature of its type. At best (what most people assume is standard) it follows along with you, at worst it does its own thing and can be disruptive(don't be an ass of a GM and do this). Trying to get anything more then this best case out of minions is beyond what the rules and balance allow.
Also, let's not forget that actions don't inherently exist outside of combat, but rather abstractions of actions exist based on either defined exploration activities or what the GM determines makes sense based on how difficult something should be.
it seems a bit fuzzier than that:
actions Discrete tasks that generate a specific effect, possibly requiring a check to determine the result. Actions can be used to accomplish a variety of things, such as moving, attacking, casting a spell, or interacting with an item or object. Most creatures can use up to 3 actions during their turn. 17, 461–463activity A category of action that typically takes more than a single action. Activities on your turn take 2 actions ([two-actions]) or 3 actions ([three-actions]). Exploration and downtime activities can take minutes, hours, or days. 17, 461–462
That is a fair point. But how much of a problem is that actually going to cause?
Are other characters that can only do one exploration activity going to feel slighted as a result?
I have: Had a rogue that was pretty miffed that the ranger could search and track while the wizard was detecting magic and investigating and the only thing he could do was Avoid Notice and look for traps: He was really irked when the companion saw a secret door that he couldn't roll on because he was limited to traps only.
PS: If case you're wondering how this came up, we specifically set up a game with 2 players with minions what could act as PC's for exploration activities and 2 players that had multiple exploration activities. I have to say, even as an Investigator with 3 exploration activities active at once, it was annoying to someone just get to freely pick an extra activity on the fly for free. Needless to say, we voted against adding that houserule after the trial run.
This sounds like you were deliberately trying to miff the Rogue.
How often does this come up in an actual game not designed specifically to be a counterexample?
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As for having minions not being able to follow the party, that is only a very perverse, deliberately antagonistic reading of the rules, a...
strict RAW reading by a devil trying to hamper the party
Specifically for the ability to follow, I would point out that exploration activities are only needed...
When you want to do something other than simply travel
Having flying minions fall out of the air when not commanded also falls into that category.
This sounds like you were deliberately trying to miff the Rogue.
It was a deliberate test to see if getting free exploration activities for minions felt like stepping on the shoes of those that paid for those extra exploration activities with feats. We found out it did.
How often does this come up in an actual game not designed specifically to be a counterexample?
Every single one where someone gets free exploration activities so they get to do double what you do and they are still more flexible that you if you do go out of your way to pick up an ability to do 2.
As for having minions not being able to follow the party, that is only a very perverse, deliberately antagonistic reading of the rules, a...
strict RAW reading by a devil trying to hamper the partySpecifically for the ability to follow, I would point out that exploration activities are only needed...
When you want to do something other than simply travelHaving flying minions fall out of the air when not commanded also falls into that category.
I don't find a literal reading antagonistic: it just is. "When you want to do something other than simply travel" is simply spending an action/turn to move which is something a minion can't do without a command. It's not like they needed to write out a 'normal movement' activity [it's just overland movement] instead of making it the base 1 action/turn exploration activity as most of the other activities modify it by 1/2 and needs Dm adjudication on what activity it is.
When you quote the entire thing, you see it's not because the movement doesn't cost actions but that it's up to the Dm to give you the activity you're doing: "When you want to do something other than simply travel, you describe what you are attempting to do. It isn't necessary to go into extreme detail, such as “Using my dagger, I nudge the door so I can check for devious traps.” Instead, “I'm searching the area for hazards” is sufficient. The GM finds the best exploration activity to match your description and describes the effects of that activity." As you can see, it just means it's just that movement doesn't need the Dm to figure anything out.
I also consider my ruling a literal reading of the rules. Just with the idea that a command given out of combat can last longer than 6 seconds.
As a contrived counterexample of my own:
A group consisting of a Ranger, the Ranger's animal companion, a Rogue, a Monk, and a Wizard with a familiar.
Scenario: the party wants to leave the social activity that they attended solely for the purpose of getting onto the castle grounds. Now they are trying to sneak down the corridors past any potential observers that may be in the rooms. The Ranger and Rogue are both expert in stealth. Everyone else is at least trained - including both the animal companion and the familiar.
However, since neither of the minions can use exploration activities of their own such as Avoid Notice, they have to stomp along the corridor in plain view. Since the minion rules say that the command action needed to control them have the Auditory trait, it would be counter-productive to make noise yourself to quiet your minions.
This scenario doesn't work if commands have to be re-issued every 6 seconds.
(Yeah, I know: just leave the animals out of the social gathering. This is a specific example. The same problem happens any time you need the entire party to be sneaking around.)