I've just started playing a Slayer with the Witch Killer archetype (the GM's choice). As a Witch Killer, I have the “Superstitious” talent by default, which says I can’t choose from Ranger Talents, but instead get a choice of several Barbarian Talents. The one I had wanted to take is “Superstition”:
The barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies.
However, there's ambiguity about how to apply the "while raging" part of the description to a non-barbarian. My GM's interpretation is that, like the save bonus, it's constant (based on the wording that goes with Superstitious). That would mean that my character would always have to save against all arcane spells cast by my allies. I'm guessing that would badly hamstring the party as we get to higher levels (Haste? Dimension Door? Teleport? Fly? Sorry - not me.)
I realize the GM is the GM, but was wondering if there's an official position on this or how other folks have handled it. Thanks!
That's right. You always try to resist arcane spells, spell like abilities, and creatures who use them. It's a cool benefit, but really inconvenient in the wrong party.
Per RAW, the Witch Killer is treated as "while raging" for all Rage powers other than "once per Rage" powers, because it's active constantly. So you cannot be a Willing target of any spell and must make saving throws even against allies, pretty much at all times.
However, under normal circumstances, Barbarians with Superstitious are only under that effect while actually Raging. So, Barb PC's have the option to get buffed first, then rage, or Rage Cycle to receive buffs from allies.
I think this is kind of unfair to put this on a PC "at all times". This is something I would discuss with your GM, because this mechanic turns into "not very fun for the PC or the party" real quick. Tbf, I think an acceptable alternative rule would be that this is active only during combat.
If your GM is adamant about having this active at all times, I would recommend not taking it, or figure out ways to buff yourself. Because if your party is losing spells trying to buff you, that is annoying.
However, there's ambiguity about how to apply the "while raging" part of the description to a non-barbarian. My GM's interpretation is that, like the save bonus, it's constant (based on the wording that goes with Superstitious).
What part of "The other rage powers affect the slayer constantly, though the superstition and witch hunter rage powers apply only against arcane spells and spell-like abilities and the creatures that use them." is unclear?
Yes, it's not a good selection for every group. That matches the theme of the book, which is about "terrifying foes and the stubborn few who choose to battle against the darkness". If you have arcane full casters, or arcane 6/9 casters that like to cast spells on party members, you probably shouldn't take Superstitious. Working as intended. Note that divine spells, extracts, supernatural abilities (even those by arcane casters!) and magic items (like Boots of Speed or Winged Boots) still work.
I agree, Ryze - if it's ALWAYS on, it's a bad idea to take it. It's not just losing out on buffs - what if the party decides to D-Door past the locked castle gate, or teleport to someplace far away, or wants to fly up to the top of a cliff? Outa luck.
For a Barbarian, they only have the disadvantage for a few seconds/minutes per day, as opposed to 24/7. My GM's argument is that since the Witch Killer only has a problem vs Arcane spells, it's reasonable that it be constant like the save bonus. I get that the wording of Superstitious (which clarifies - a little - how rage powers apply to non-barbarians) supports this interpretation. But it makes it a total deal-breaker unless I want to be the SOB that makes everyone else in the party dance around their limitations.
However, there's ambiguity about how to apply the "while raging" part of the description to a non-barbarian. My GM's interpretation is that, like the save bonus, it's constant (based on the wording that goes with Superstitious).What part of "The other rage powers affect the slayer constantly, though the superstition and witch hunter rage powers apply only against arcane spells and spell-like abilities and the creatures that use them." is unclear?
Yes, it's not a good selection for every group. That matches the theme of the book, which is about "terrifying foes and the stubborn few who choose to battle against the darkness". If you have arcane full casters, or arcane 6/9 casters that like to cast spells on party members, you probably shouldn't take Superstitious. Working as intended. Note that divine spells, extracts, supernatural abilities (even those by arcane casters!) and magic items (like Boots of Speed or Winged Boots) still work.
I'm not so sure that's right. Superstition forces barbarians to roll against all spells, but the witch hunter has the phrase "and the creatures that use them", that to me implies they have to save against anything an arcane spell caster or someone with arcane spell like abilities does, even if it's not an arcane spell.
"The other rage powers affect the slayer constantly, though the superstition and witch hunter rage powers apply only against arcane spells and spell-like abilities and the creatures that use them."
I get that the wording of Superstitious (which clarifies - a little - how rage powers apply to non-barbarians) supports this interpretation.
It's not an "interpretation" with "a little" clarification, it's outright stated by the ability. "The other rage powers affect the slayer constantly" leaves absolutely no wiggle room.
I'm not so sure that's right. Superstition forces barbarians to roll against all spells, but the witch hunter has the phrase "and the creatures that use them", that to me implies they have to save against anything an arcane spell caster or someone with arcane spell like abilities does, even if it's not an arcane spell.
You don't save against a creature. Applying the 'creature' part to a saving throw makes no sense.
The Superstition description mentions "spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities".
The Witch Hunter description mentions "creatures possessing spells or spell-like abilities".
The Superstitious description says "the superstition and witch hunter rage powers apply only against arcane spells and spell-like abilities and the creatures that use them" - it talks about two different rage powers, and provides two sets of restrictions*, each of which align perfectly with one rage power each. Superstition is restricted to "arcane spells and spell-like abilities", and Witch Hunter is restricted to "creatures that use [arcane spells and spell-like abilities]".
*) "arcane spells and spell-like abilities and the creatures that use them" is not a list of three equal items, if it were, it would say "spells, SLAs, and creatures". The use of the double "and" seperates it into two equal list items, one of which has two sub-items. Technically, it doesn't indicate where the divide is ("spells + SLAs / creatures", or "spells / SLAs + creatures"), but I think that one's perfectly clear.
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Personally, I would consider hexes as a supernatural ability granted by an arcane class, and so use the FAQ below to decide that they are arcane powers, but it is non-RAW. RAW I don't know anything that explains if a SU ability is arcane, divine, or nothing.
But then the part of the Superstitious ability that gives a bonus against SU abilities never works.
+2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities.
Spell-Like Abilities: How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?
The universal monster rules for spell-like abilities states: "Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."
For spell-like abilities gained from a creature's race or type (including PC races), the same rule should apply: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
For spell-like abiities gained from a class, use the spell type (arcane or divine) of that class to determine whether the spell-like ability is arcane or divine. If the class doesn't cast spells, use the above rule for spell-like abilities from race or type.
Edit 7/15/13: Wording changed match the precedent in the universal monster rules for spell-like abilities.
Edit 9/23/13: Wording updated to clarify racial/type SLAs vs. class SLAs.
But it makes it a total deal-breaker unless I want to be the SOB that makes everyone else in the party dance around their limitations.
Well, you shouldn't play the archetype in a group with arcane casters in the first place. The flavor text for the archetype says "witch killers devote their lives to purge the arcane taint from the world", that would include party members. The archetype is intended to be incompatible with arcane caster party members!
Your GM should let you take a different archetype.
But then the part of the Superstitious ability that gives a bonus against SU abilities never works.
Er, what? You seem to have the names mixed up, here. Superstitious is the Witch Killer class feature. Superstition is the rage power. Normally, the rage power (cBarb version, it was changed for unBarb) works against "spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities". The class feature, however, restricts this to "arcane spells and spell-like abilities", and so supernatural abilities, even those originating from arcane casters, are unaffected.
Do you think it is a purposeful omission, or just lazy writing like everthing else?
Seems like a massive oversight to leave out that part on purpose, rather than it being just lazy copying of Rage Power texts.
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Do you think it is a purposeful omission, or just lazy writing like everthing else?
Seems like a massive oversight to leave out that part on purpose, rather than it being just lazy copying of Rage Power texts.
Or maybe it was omitted because there is no official way to determine if a SU power is arcane or divine?
Do you think it is a purposeful omission, or just lazy writing like everthing else?
I see no indication that this wasn't deliberate. The Studied Witch ability of the archetype says "saving
throws against arcane spells and spell-like abilities and hexes", so they could've at least copy-pasted that. They didn't. It would've been possible to make the save bonus work agaisnt effects from creatures possessing arcane spells or SLAs, that would've kept the Superstition bonus against SU working. They didn't.The archetype's other abilities all are about arcane casting/SLA, and none care about supernatural abilities at all.
From what little flavor about the archetype we have, it doesn't actually care much about Witches as in the Pathfinder class, but about witches in the biblical sense, i.e. practicers of non-divine magic. The concept seems very christianocentric.
I think I'll just stick with the idea that the "and the creatures that use them" line means exactly that. It's either means nothing, or it forces you to save against hexes and every other ability of arcane casting classes and creatures.
I think I'll just stick with the idea that the "and the creatures that use them" line means exactly that.
Then do that! Accept that "and the creatures that use them" does indeed mean exactly that, and not "effects originating from creatures that use them". Accept that when it says "creatures", it means "creatures", and not "effects originating from creatures".
It's either means nothing, or it forces you to save against hexes and every other ability of arcane casting classes and creatures.
This is a false dilemma fallacy, because there's a third options that you've ignored: That the part of the text only applies to the other rage power that the ability talks about, Witch Hunter.
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Well, maybe you should have thought of that before you started adventuring with filthy heathen witches? Hmph.
Have you ever considered...just straight up playing a Barbarian?