Ball Lightning, Focused on One Target

[Falkyron]

Two questions came up in-game, and the answer isn't obvious so I wanted the opinion of the Elder Brain.

1) Can you have ball lightning focus all of its generated balls onto a single target to strike it multiple times in a round?

2) Can you spend two move actions on ball lightning to deal its damage twice per round?

3) If the answer to 2 is 'yes', can a ball strike the same target twice in a round?

[Firebug]

1) Depends on if you think that the separate balls can exist in the same square or not.
2) No. "If a globe enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round". But you could 'double move' it if you needed the distance.
3) See 2.

[Azothath]

Ball Lightning

1) The globes are a spell effect. Another indication is "These globes have no mass ...". That would mean, yes, you can have 100+ globes on one creature. I'd agree that some GMs will treat them as separate spell effects that occupy a unique and exclusive space. I'd ask that GM, "Can multiple spell effects cast by the same caster be in one place at one time (such as Mage Armor, Phantom Steed, Obscuring mist, Darkness, Light, Silence, and another Darkness)?".

2) No. Which also ends 3).
As Firebug pointed out the caster can double move the spell effect if needed.

[Falkyron]

Answers to question 2 and its follow-up are what I surmised as well. I'm interested in what people think now about whether multiple spell effects from the spell can occupy the same space?

I don't see a problem damage-wise with it apart from bloat on dice rolling at higher caster levels, but it does seem to have a powerful niche with rider effects that can be problematic.

[AwesomenessDog]

From a physics standpoint, what you're doing is running the target of the spell through two circuits in parallel, which does double the amps, which does increase effect...

Volts only matter because Volts and the body's insanely high Resistance determines the amperage for the given Voltage, but when we already have a fixed current from one source going through a body, doubling the amperage just doubles the power draw.

/science

[Firebug]

Falkyron wrote:

Answers to question 2 and its follow-up are what I surmised as well. I'm interested in what people think now about whether multiple spell effects from the spell can occupy the same space?

I don't see a problem damage-wise with it apart from bloat on dice rolling at higher caster levels, but it does seem to have a powerful niche with rider effects that can be problematic.

We have an example of a single spell with overlapping effects in Meteor Swarm. But specific vs general, I suppose.

[Ryze Kuja]

Ball Lightning spell description specifically says that it has no mass and cannot push creatures or solid objects out of squares, so I'm pretty positive that two Ball Lightnings should be able to share the same square.

As far as being able to use two Move Actions to move all your Ball Lightnings...

Actions in Combat wrote:

Actions In Combat

During one turn, there are a wide variety of actions that your character can perform, from swinging a sword to casting a spell.

Types of Combat Options

Many attacks are basic combat options or combat maneuvers any character can attempt, while others are available only through attack-oriented feats. Different combat options require different types of actions. The action type defines which options can be used together.

Basic: Anyone can use these combat options, including charging and fighting defensively.

Combat Maneuvers: Combat maneuvers are a specific set of basic options that use your Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense. There are several combat maneuvers (dirty trick, disarm, drag, grapple, overrun, reposition, steal, sunder, and trip).

Feats: Numerous feats grant additional combat options, such as Cleave, Power Attack, and Vital Strike. Each feat defines the circumstances in which it can be used. Characters without these feats can’t attempt the special attacks detailed in those feats.
Action Types

An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated.

There are six types of actions:

Standard
Move
Full-round
Swift
Immediate
Free

In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.

So yes, you can always take a Move Action as your Standard Action. You would be able to Swift/Immediate + Move Balls + Move Balls + 5ft step if you wanted to.

[Quixote]

There's nothing in the spell's description that prohibits multiple spheres from damaging the same target in a round.

And while you can move the spheres twice a round, the spell clearly says that, once a sphere enters a creature's square, it stops moving for the round, so you can't 5ft-shuffle 2+ spheres in and out of a creature's square and force 12+ saves a round.

[TxSam88]

1. yes
2. no

[Falkyron]

Thank you for your input.

[Azothath]

AwesomenessDog wrote:

From a physics standpoint, ...

/science

Power in resistive electrical circuits is commonly calculated using V=IR and P=I^2R {not 2*I*R}. The resistance of the human body is about 300(internal)-1000(moist)-100000(dry) Ohms, not all that much unless the skin is rather dry. Considering that most armor in the game is metal, leather & padding has dried sweat(salts), and most characters are sweaty in combat it's probably less than 1000 Ohms. And yes, that armor would carry a lot of current.

Voltage and Frequency play a very important part in electrical conduction as you move from simple resistance to impedance, it's what makes a defibrillator different from a taser or static electricity.

The game has issues with falling damage. One would assume that typed damage suffers from an even bigger inconsistency with physics and chemistry. It's why the game is a work of art rather than a good model of an alternative reality. Newtonian physics is far more precise and accurate than the D&D3.5 or PF1 model.

[AwesomenessDog]

Whoops, got it backwards.

So what your saying is that we should quadruple damage when two lightning balls overlap.

[Azothath]

AwesomenessDog wrote:

Whoops, got it backwards.

So what your saying is that we should quadruple damage when two lightning balls overlap.

no... I'm saying that physics doesn't really apply. The damage is geared for game balance in the game, just as the spells are roughly gauged by power by spell level. (In the Game) Spell effects are applied separately, so two balls, two saves (one for each). This is done for simplicity (to prevent stacking) in game play.

You could apply physics, and you should, to make things more believable. Trying to rationalize the game mechanics by kinetic energy, Watts, Joules, etc will just be an act of folly. Been there, done that.

[AwesomenessDog]

Sorry that was meant to come off as more sarcastic than it did, I guess.