Independent Valet Familiar

[Aricks]

So, a familiar can deliver a touch spell with the Spell Delivery ability using both actions for movement but having it deliver an elixir or potion with the Manual Dexterity ability and one action for movement and another to Interact is overpowered or something.

I'd pretend I'm shocked that Paizo found another way to make alchemists less viable but I can't quite pull off the DC.

Manual Dexterity and Valet still improves action economy for alchemists in that you can have twice as many items readied to feed to party members, so that's nice, but the lack of ranged healing besides the bad joke that is Healing Bomb is annoying. It also completely kills the ability for alchemists to delivery any beneficial buffing elixir at range.

Stock up on those cheetah elixirs chirurgeons, you're going to be doing a lot of running around.

[HumbleGamer]

if the problem is the alchemist not being viable, the answer shouldn't be a critter exploited by all characters.

I approve the job they did with quickness, and find logic that a familiar is not intended to be a tool to exploit the quickness limits ( though they still are able to withdraw an item even without the valet master familiar skill ).

This means that an indipendent/manualdex familiar would be able to withdraw an item, on the first round, and pass it to the character on its second round.

This would be like having a 1/2 quickness almost for free, but with the limit it can only be used to withdraw items and not activate them.

I am pretty sure the majority of characters will still continue to use the familiars to withdraw consumables, because it's still too efficient and with no alternatives.

[Bmj]

Familiar can’t unstopper a bottle and tilt it at a 45 degree angle, but they can reload a heavy crossbow. Totally makes sense.

[Guntermench]

Bmj wrote:

Familiar can’t unstopper a bottle and tilt it at a 45 degree angle, but they can reload a heavy crossbow. Totally makes sense.

Only if they're wielding the crossbow.

[SuperBidi]

And you even have a Familiar Ability that does nothing: Lab Assistant. Your Familiar can create an item it can't use nor give (as even with Independent you need 2 rounds so it disappears before you can hand it). Wonderful.

They clearly messed up Alchemical Familiar.

[Bmj]

It is absurd. My two year old can unscrew milk caps, unstopper bottles, and uncap the Play-Dough while it takes me 45 seconds of labor to reload an old fashioned crossbow.

I understand PF2E isn't trying to mimic realism, but this doesn't make sense. They should have thought of a different way to prevent familiars from using potions.

With Quick Alchemy and Lab Assistant a familiar can use a mortar and pestle to grind up an elixir with carefully measured ingredients within 6 seconds, pour the mixture into the elixir, and cork it... but they can't pour it down somebody's throat while they're lying on the ground.

The balancing mechanism is jarring and not immersive.

SuperBidi wrote:

And you even have a Familiar Ability that does nothing: Lab Assistant. Your Familiar can create an item it can't use nor give (as even with Independent you need 2 rounds so it disappears before you can hand it). Wonderful.

They clearly messed up Alchemical Familiar.

That's true. There is no longer any reason to have lab assistant since the action economy is identical as if you just did it yourself.

[HumbleGamer]

Bmj wrote:

The balancing mechanism is jarring and not immersive.

As it is required to be.

Being able to recognize that it's about balance allows you to make your own modifies and homebrew adjustments, eventually making a more immersive game, by trading balance for RP purposes.

The opposite, Paizo giving unbalanced rules and mechanics, would have resulted into a total mess for players.

[Bmj]

It's required to be jarring and not immersive?

If anything, when I look at lab assistant, I feel like it is more likely that in terms of rule design Paizo's left hand isn't talking to the right hand.

[HumbleGamer]

Bmj wrote:

It's required to be jarring and not immersive?

You are focusing on the wrong part.

It's required for the game to be balanced.

Given 2 specific situations:

- Game unbalanced but filled with flavor stuff ( and players have to try to fix it to make it balanced )

or

- Game balanced but very strict when it comes to flavor or tasks ( and players have to fix it to make it less strict, allowing the stuff they think is way too restrictive )

I can easily affirm that anybody would be more at easy with a balanced game to start with.

Especially given how this 2e ( 3 action 1 reaction system ) works.

[The Raven Black]

Yes. There is a problem with the Alchemist. However this has to be dealt with at the origin point, which is the Alchemist class.

Not by tinkering with the familiar rules.

[rainzax]

Any updates on this?

[yellowpete]

From the Advanced Player's Guide Errata:

Page 146: There's been some confusion over whether an independent familiar can use abilities that require a command, like valet, or whether the independent ability overrides the normal rules for mounted combat. To make clear that neither is the case, add "This doesn’t work with valet or similar abilities that require a command, if you’re capable of riding your familiar, or similar situations."

So no free draw every turn, though you could still give the familiar Manual Dexterity and have it hand you items at an effective rate of one every two rounds, as far as I can tell.