Who to the what actually does this, and how does it work?
I have a Magician... Bard VMC Sorcerer... Magician Bard with the Arcane Bloodline... a wonderful combination, me-thinks...
But this Improved Counterspell feat, I don't know how to use this...
It seems you would literally want ALL THE SPELLS... not just a Bard list...
Counter-spelling seems useful, but how does it actually work?
Is there any way to use Overwatch to ready more actions to counterspell? Does counter-spelling require readied actions?
I be lost...
This feat is dumb. Counterspell with Dispel Magic.
This feat is dumb. Counterspell with Dispel Magic.
when looking at it from the PoV of a single character, it's not great, but counterspelling is a great option for a group oriented protection build. Spellcasters that you'd actually be worried about, typically only come one to an encounter, having your wizard/sorcerer stand spell-guard and ruining their entire turn, leaving the rest of the group unbothered to wreck face can turn encounters from difficult to easy.
It's mythic, so not quite the same, but one character is a specialized counterspeller and if the badguy in anyway relies on spells, its pretty much game over for them. If they weren't mythic, they'd just have to give up their action to do so, which is fine, cause its the best trade off for debuff there is; I use a turn, you essentially don't get yours, no save, no roll, just sit there and look dumb and then get kicked in the face by the monk.
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Counterspelling is a huge strain on your action economy, so unless you can use it as an immediate action instead of a readied one, it is hardly worth it. Other ways of preserving your action would work too, for example if you can make your familiar counterspell enemy casters (e.g. Familiar Spell metamagic on Dispel Magic).
If your table allows some 3PP stuff, then the Opportunity Counterspell works with a few twists: the Spellcraft 15 and Quicken prerequisites are ridiculous (who plays beyond level 15?).
So there are very few builds like the mentioned Arcanist exploit, that make it work. Here are a few interesting feats:
Improved Counterspell, Parry Spell, Retributive Summoning, Ordered Mind, Mythic Improved Counterspell.
Improved Counterspell works well for spontaneous casters, as the increased casting time won't matter and since you can heighten a cantrip of a specific school to do the counter: An Ordered Mind with a heightened (+9) Prestidigitation can counterspell Wish.
The thing about having the party's spellcaster ready an action to counter the BBEG's spell, is the party's spellcaster also just took themselves out of the fight for that round...
Sure, the BBEG doesn't get to shoot his fireball... but neither did the party's spellcaster, so at best it's a tie.
We always used readied attacks to disrupt casting of spells, because at least you are doing some damage.
That is pretty nuts using a Heightened cantrip to counter Wish, though. Neat.
The thing about having the party's spellcaster ready an action to counter the BBEG's spell, is the party's spellcaster also just too themselves out of the fight for that round...
Sure, the BBEG doesn't get to shoot his fireball... but neither did the party's spellcaster, so at best it's a tie.
We always used readied attacks to disrupt casting of spells, because at least you are doing some damage.
That is pretty nuts using a Heightened cantrip to counter Wish, though. Neat.
what action could the party spellcaster take that instantly neutralizes the enemy's action without a save, attack roll, etc? That's the advantage of counterspelling.
If the BBEG is just shooting fireballs, sure, it probably isn't worth it to ready actions to counterspell (or if your group is sans evaders, maybe it is), but vs. save or suck, or save or die, it's suddenly the best option.
As for dealing damage on a readied action; there are still to hit rolls, saves, resistances, SR, spell immunity, and everything that goes into normal combat to contend with, whereas again, counterspelling is pretty much automatic (if you're set up to do it correctly of course).
People bash on it, and it isn't a great system, but I'm currently seeing it played rather well and its definitely a game changer. Instead of half the party soaking up that fireball or getting stuck in a cloudkill or webbed, creeping doomed or whathaveyou, the witch is spending her turn making all that moot, saving healing, keeping the debuffs from landing, etc.
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also there is the psychological impact. Throwing a fireball at a bunch of PCs will get them to ready pencils to mark off some damage, but you instead counterspell their wizards big save-the-day spell and suddenly you'll see them perk up in fright!
Long ago, I had an encounter with a previously described Red half-dragon troll that went after the party. Also with him was a group of triplet wizards. One was specialized in offense, one in defense, and the last in counterspelling. While they had their problems with the masochistic troll and the other two brothers, it's the counterspeller they still talk about with venomous hatred to this day. Counterspelling a True Resurrection will do that to a group though I guess.
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Improved Counterspell works well for spontaneous casters, as the increased casting time won't matter and since you can heighten a cantrip of a specific school to do the counter
Not trying to throw out a "gotcha!" here, but can you walk me through this? Here's how I understand it:
When you ready to counterspell, it's literally readying. So you can only use a spell with a standard action (or less) casting time to counter. If a spontaneous caster heightened a spell, that would make it a full-round action.
Interesting.
Might have to explore that further. Possibly something a cohort could be designed to do.
Maybe an Arcanist/Oracle Mystic Theurge... could even grab the Counterspell Wizard powers from School Savant Arcanist archetype. Although, it might be better to just grab the Counterspell Exploit as an Exploiter-Pact Wizard with the Abjuration/Counterspell School.
Can countering a spell be interupted/stopped?
Say the BBEG has some archers... can they ready actions to stop the party's spellcaster from countering the BBEG's spells?
Readying an action to stop someone else's readied action. Lol.
I imagine you could, it's still casting a spell, so all the relevant rules should apply.
Improved Counterspell should be re-written as something actually beneficial. I'm not going to waste a feat on this garbage when I can just prepare Dispel Magic each day and Counterspell with Dispel against ANY SPELL REGARDLESS OF SCHOOL.
what action could the party spellcaster take that instantly neutralizes the enemy's action without a save, attack roll, etc? That's the advantage of counterspelling.
Environment spells (Darkness, Mist/Fog/Clouds, ...) that break line of sight/effect have no save and prevent spells, or casting Silence on your party archer's arrow lets you avoid the Will save, ... . Controllers/debuffers specialize in landing their control/debuff spells, so a Hold Person vs save takes them out as well.
When you ready to counterspell, it's literally readying. So you can only use a spell with a standard action (or less) casting time to counter. If a spontaneous caster heightened a spell, that would make it a full-round action.
Ready itself is a Standard Action. However, most people confuse this Ready action with the "Ready an Action" option; in fact, there are different options you can take with Ready, that are often overlooked -- e.g. Readying a Weapon against a Charge is one such option, because there is no standard/move/swift "brace" action that could be used with the "Ready an Action" option.
Readying to Counterspell is not the same thing as Readying an Action. The latter requires it to be a Standard, Move, or Swift Action, but Readying a Counterspell has no such requirement, that is why the casting time is not relevant to it; it only matters whether you can cast that spell at the moment.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
[...]
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane. A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn’t always work.
p.s.:
If you are able to use Equipment Tricks, then use the Sunrod on the Light cantrip (Evocation spell): for just 2 gold pieces, the spell is augmented by +1 level. For example, you only need to expend a 2nd-level spell-slot to counter a Fireball with Ordered Mind, or a 3rd-level spell-slot to counter with Improved Counterspell.The same works with the Ghost Sound cantrip (Illusion, Figment) and a Mirror (10gp) to counter Illusion spells +1 level higher.
Environment spells (Darkness, Mist/Fog/Clouds, ...) that break line of sight/effect have no save and prevent spells, or casting Silence on your party archer's arrow lets you avoid the Will save, ... . Controllers/debuffers specialize in landing their control/debuff spells, so a Hold Person vs save takes them out as well.
I mean if numerous vision abilities or a simple move action weren't a thing, sure, those are surefire ways too.
All spellcasters are essentially trading their turn to nullify the turn of someone else. Counterspellers are just going to be the best at nullifying another spellcaster, and in a team setting, that is doom for the opposing spellslinger.
Is this something a GM should use against the party?
Even if you go through the steps necessary to have a few spells of each school at each level, and grab a few feats and traits and a magic item or two that helps your cause... everything is trackable and explained... it probably still feels like rocks fall, party dies.
Or is it perfectly okay to throw an extra spellcaster into an encounter specifically to counterspell?
I am still not very experienced running spellcasters, so it doesn't come natural to me to include someone specifically to throw Dispel around.
Does it add an extra element to the encounter?
The party spellcaster gets shut down two turns in a row, so the party shifts their focus to the guy shouting Dispel..? It seems almost rude to shut down the party spellcaster with no roll and no save.
But it also seems like every intelligent bad guy, ruler, and/or noble would have a few spellcasters around at all times exactly for this purpose.
It seems anticlimatic.
I will probably put a Dispel specialist together, with at least a secondary focus on countering spells. Someone that does little other than sit quietly by whoever I deem important. Max out Perception, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft... always ready and always present... but a complete non-factor unless someone is throwing spells around.
I imagine I would get one Dispel off, counter one spell, before the party's ZAM/Inquisitor put an arrow in every one of my vital organs in alphebetical order. And that would be the end of that... like so, SO many others...
D@mn you, Intessa!!!
I've seen it used effectively in a few situations.
The most memorable was a party of six facing off against a cult leader, four of their elite guard and 30-ish cultists. The full caster of the group figured the no-armor, no-weapon leader had some tricks up their sleeve and readied an action to counterspell. The head cultists opened up with a large AoE buff spells to give their whole side a substantial boost. Countered.
Then, when the fight seemed to be going south, they tried for Gaseous Form to beat an exit up the chimney. Countered again, with no way out.
Improved Counterspell should be re-written as something actually beneficial. I'm not going to waste a feat on this garbage when I can just prepare Dispel Magic each day and Counterspell with Dispel against ANY SPELL REGARDLESS OF SCHOOL.
The thing with using dispel magic to counterspell is that it's not automatic. There's a caster level check involved. Improved counterspell is automatic, if you have an appropriate spell of sufficient level.
Often the BBEG will have spells of higher level than yours and this doesn't work. Building around counterspell is painful for this reason. It can be impressive sometimes tho'.
This is why the primary focus has to be Dispel... with a secondary focus on the specific act of countering spells.
Burn a feat for Leadership, and build a cohort that smashes spells as they are casted...
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So there is an arcanist build that considers the question of how much counterspelling actually sucks and strives to make it somewhat not-suck.
You might have a look for yerself, though.
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Improved Counterspell should be re-written as something actually beneficial. I'm not going to waste a feat on this garbage when I can just prepare Dispel Magic each day and Counterspell with Dispel against ANY SPELL REGARDLESS OF SCHOOL.The thing with using dispel magic to counterspell is that it's not automatic. There's a caster level check involved. Improved counterspell is automatic, if you have an appropriate spell of sufficient level.
Often the BBEG will have spells of higher level than yours and this doesn't work. Building around counterspell is painful for this reason. It can be impressive sometimes tho'.
The problem with Improved Counterspell is that in order to use it effectively, I'm going to prepare a whole bunch of high level slots with trash spells based upon whatever school I think he might cast from, and then HOPE that we face him that day, and also HOPE that he casts spells that are not higher than my level nor spells from an opposed school.
That's why I believe that Dispel Magic is far superior to any other type of counterspelling. For 2-3 3rd lvl spell slots, I can use it to counterspell a BBEG's spells with a Caster Level check, regardless of spell level he casts and without respect to "school-guessing". It's a "One Size Fits All" counterspell. So the rest of my slots are essentially free to prepare what I actually want to <---- And THIS is the most important aspect out of all of this. Spell Slot freedom.
With regular counterspell, I have to try to guess the exact spell or exact school (w/ Imp CS) he'll be casting, and this consumes a lot of high level slots with spells that I might not actually want to prepare. Meanwhile, every day that passes where we don't face him, I've wasted a lot of spell slots on essentially "school-guessing" trash spells intended for counterspell fodder.
At level 11 it gets a bit easier because you get Greater Dispel, so that's +4 to a CL check to counterspell. By then, you also have Beads of Karma, Orange Ioun Stones, and Paragon Surge (Dispel Focus), and now you've increased your CL by 11, with just spells and items. So that's double your actual CL of 11, so now with a +22 CL check to Dispel anything he casts. That's an avg 32.5 CL check at level 11, and any equal level CR +/- 2CR is going to need to be rolling 18+ on the die to beat my average roll. If you're in a group that has a Roll Twice, Take Better Result buff, even better.
So, rather than waste a Feat and hundreds of spell slots over the course of a campaign, I can do the entire thing with spells and items, and now it doesn't matter if he casts higher level spells either-- I don't have to worry about wasting my high level slots for whatever school I think he might cast from. Now all my slots are free to pick what I actually want, save for the 2-3 3rd lvl slots and 1-2 6th level slots. And even if I don't end up using a Gr Dispel for counterspelling, it's still useful for area dispels or targeted buff shearing. If we do end up facing the BBEG after I've used all my dispels for that day, I still have the option of Readying an Action to Melt his Face with my Blaster Spell and force a redonk Conc Check, because I didn't load up my slots with counterspell fodder.
Improved Counterspell would be useful if it allowed you to counterspell higher level spells with lower level slots from that school. <--- I would definitely use it if it did something like this, or make Improved Counterspell something like the Greater Counterspell Exploit for Arcanists.
in my experience you don't need a spell of every kind, you can just focus on a handful of schools for Improved Counterspell; namely evocation and necromancy. Then enchantment, illusion and transmutation, then conjuration (unless you're making a badguy and then conjuration is at the top to counter those tasty cure and heal spells, to just be a gigantic rooster to your PCs!)
So with that in mind, you should have good spells that you can toss if you don't need to counter anyone, but then you can counter the schools with the most common or nasty spells that the majority of spellcasters with throw at you.
Beware proliferation though as a PC; you start doing this on the regular, prepare for more powerful or more numerous spellcasters to compensate.
As for is it worth building an NPC to do this; maybe? It's GM-fun to counter a clutch healing spell or buff every once in awhile, but I wouldn't make a habit of it, but if you have an encounter where someone is meeting with a high muckity muck, be it a king, duke, bandit lord, etc...I think anyone worth the title would have a counter-mage waiting in the shadows making sure they don't get sorcelled out of existence by a group of murder hobos.
So there is an arcanist build that considers the question of how much counterspelling actually sucks and strives to make it somewhat not-suck. You might have a look for yerself, though.
I'm familiar with this build. It's an old one, that is focused on prepared casters and errs in some ways about counterspelling, e.g. the "Ready an Action" mistake. If you're a prepared caster, then it's definitely the go-to guide along with Ryze Kuja's suggestions on utilizing Dispel Magic.
As for spontaneous casters though, the Heighten trick is a better way to do counterspelling. The above guide also omits cantrips completely, it literally just says "Cantrips: Cantrips are good".
Spontaneous casters' biggest issue is usually the low number of Spells Known; however, that is not an issue with cantrips: even non-full spontaneous casters start with 4 cantrips and that number rises quickly (+1 every 2 levels) up to 9 for full-casters. There also tends to be a Favored Class Bonus for spontaneous casters to learn an additional Spell Known of highest-level -1, which means they can add cantrips right from their 1st character level.
Once a spontaneous casters has Ordered Mind (or the lesser version: Improved Counterspell), the Heighten Spell metamagic and a cantrip of every school, you can counter any spell without fail as long as you have spell-slots.
And with the Equipment Tricks (Mirror/Sunrod) you have it especially easy to counter Illusion & Evocation spells (cantrips: Ghost Sound/Light). You don't even need to spend feats on these tricks, as Equipment Trick is a combat feat and therefore eligible for the Training weapon quality: just wear gauntlets with that quality (price = +1 bonus) and you're set.
Good cantrips for this build are...
Abjuration: Resistance [only Abjuration cantrip]
Conjuration: Acid Splash (arcane), Create Water (divine)
Divination: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Guidance
Enchantment: Lullaby (psychic, bard), Daze
Evocation: Light/Dancing Lights, Flare [all with Light descriptor]
Illusion: Ghost Sound [Figment descriptor]
Necromancy: Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue
Transmutation: Mage Hand, Mending, Message
Universal: Prestidigitation
p.s.: If you are a friend of adding material components for free via False Focus feat, adding Djezet adds +1 spell level to a spell; costs 200gp per original spell level, which would be either 0gp [Cantrips are 0-level spells] or 100gp [Cantrips are usually calculated as 1/2-level spells for costs]. This would allow you to reduce the slot-level cost of your counters without (or in addition to) the Equipment Trick.
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I imagine I would get one Dispel off, counter one spell, before the party's ZAM/Inquisitor put an arrow in every one of my vital organs in alphebetical order.
I would note that a counterspell is not an attack, so it doesn't break your invisibility. So you can have a counterspeller NPC hanging back invisible in the shadows and with plenty of cover, shutting down the PC wizard while his accomplices and goons beat the party up.
That is just cruel. Lol.
How does one go about informing the spellcaster that their spell is wasted with no effect?
Player: I toss a Fireball at the guards by door... [points to spot on map]
GM: You cast the spell, but no Fireball appears. It's almost as if you hadn't casted anything at all... but you did, make sure you mark off that spell slot.
I assume the player could then make a Spellcraft check to identify the spell that countered their spell? Is there any feedback to the caster when their spell is countered?
Yeah, whatever ruling you are talking about, I ignore things that make the game less fun... literally 99% of Errata/FAQ's are completely irrelevant at my tables... Con-based Orc Witches and $#!+... Invisible counterspell would remain invisible, with no sparkles or whatever...
I would describe it as the spell fizzling, as though there was an antimagic field or something interfered with it. Get the player to make a Spellcraft roll. DC10 says it's not an AMF. DC15 says that it was counterspelled. DC20 says how and gives some indication of where the counterspell came from. This isn't RAW, of course.
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I always imagined counterspelling to be two spell colliding midair and canceling each other out. So the fireball is intercepted by another fireball and there is a dramatic flash of fire and light, but no actual damage.