Just like it says on the tin, I'm wondering if there's a RAW answer to whether nonlethal damage is sufficient to trigger the Mesmerist's Painful Stare. While I can think of a couple of different reasonable rule interpretations, I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare, the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist’s class level (minimum 1). The mesmerist can use this ability as a free action, and can use it even if it isn’t his turn. If the mesmerist uses this ability to increase his own damage, the additional damage increases by 1d6 points for every 3 class levels the mesmerist possesses. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. A mesmerist can trigger this ability only once per round, but a single creature can take damage from multiple mesmerists’ painful stares in a round.
On the pro side:
Abilities that trigger off of hit point damage exclusively tend to specify "hit point damage", and Painful Stare just says "deals damage". Nonlethal damage is, technically, a form of damage. It's in the name. This might also open the door to triggering off of ability damage though.
On the con side:
The section detailing nonlethal damage calls it out as "not “real” damage". In addition it's unclear what type of damage Painful Stare would do in the case of nonlethal damage (or ability damage). The wordings "additional" and "increase his own damage" could indicate that Painful Stare does the type of damage of the triggering attack, but the lack of clarity could also indicate that the intent was for the ability to trigger off of hit point damage alone.
Bonus Topics:
The interaction between nonlethal damage and Painful Stare is the primary topic of the thread, but, given there hasn't been much recent discussion on the topic, it's worth opening the floor to discussing what constitutes "an attack that [...] hits" in the context of Painful Stare as well.
Nonlethal damage is hit point damage, so yes, it would apply.
That would be a contentious topic in it's own right - at least I seem to remember at least one lengthy thread debating it.
Nonlethal damage is hit point damage, so yes, it would apply.
Non-lethal is not hit point damage.
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"Non-lethal damage is not actual HP damage! It does not become actual HP damage until your total Non-lethal damage exceeds your character's total maximum HP! Only once a creature's Non-lethal damage exceeds its Maximum HP would Painful Stare be able to cause its damage as a free action!"
That would be a contentious topic in it's own right - at least I seem to remember at least one lengthy thread debating it.Mhmm, I was there when it was written (and concluded).
I'll defer my judgement on the issue until I have a chance to read through that thread in its entirety.
Lets say for the time being that I accept this though - that still leaves some grey areas and the question ability damage unaddressed.
1. What type of damage is the Painful Stare if the triggering attack deals both lethal and nonlethal damage?
1.1 EX: A magus attacks with spellstrike, hitting and dealing damage with both a lethal weapon attack and the spell Frostbite simultaneously. The mesmerist triggers Painful Stare. What type of damage does this Painful Stare do? Do they get to choose what type of damage the Painful Stare does?
1.2 EX: A mage with the spell Ablative Barrier up is attacked by a mesmerist wielding a sap. The mesmerist hits with the sap, and deals enough nonlethal damage with the sap to raise the total amount of nonlethal damage taken by the mage above their hit points, and so part of the damage dealt is treated as lethal damage as per the nonlethal damage rules. The mesmerist triggers Painful Stare; is the Painful Stare damage nonlethal, as the attack that triggered it was, lethal, as part of the damage was treated, or does the mesmerist get to choose? The mage has DR against nonlethal damage, so this matters.
1.3 EX: A Barbarian with a greatclub attacks a mage with the Rubberskin spell active. The attack hits, and the lethal damage is converted in it's entirety to nonlethal damage. The mage does not have an amount of nonlethal damage accrued that is greater than or equal to their current hit point total. The mesmerist triggers Painful Stare on the barbarian's strike - does this Painful Stare do lethal or nonlethal damage?
My plain reading is as follows: Non-lethal 'damage' is still damage, it is just recorded differently up to a certain point. Painful Stare triggers. What kind of damage does Painful Stare do? The same kind of damage that triggered it, just like with other precision-type attacks (such as sneak attack or studied strike). If there is multiple choices on the damage that triggered it (ie, some lethal, some non-lethal), player makes the choice.
This reading, at least to me, is clear, concise and leaves no lingering rule discrepancies to argue about.
Non-lethal damage still counts as hit point damage. Albeit "non-lethal" hit point damage.
Here's a 29 page thread of people arguing about it: Is nonlethal damage considered hit point damage?
(Spoiler: If not "hit point damage", there's a whole lot of things that get really goofy about the game. If it is "hit point damage" everything acts exactly as you would expect it to.)
Non-lethal damage still counts as hit point damage. Albeit "non-lethal" hit point damage.
Here's a 29 page thread of people arguing about it: Is nonlethal damage considered hit point damage?
(Spoiler: If not "hit point damage", there's a whole lot of things that get really goofy about the game. If it is "hit point damage" everything acts exactly as you would expect it to.)
Yes, that's the thread I mentioned above. I've been reading through it off and on today - and as of midway through page 6 the only thing I'm convinced of is that the developers themselves haven't all been on the same page when it comes to this issue. Things seem to get kind of goofy either way. Maybe my opinions will evolve as I continue through the thread.
Regardless, whether or not nonlethal damage counts as hit point damage, there's still some tricky Painful Stare questions left to answer.
My plain reading is as follows: Non-lethal 'damage' is still damage, it is just recorded differently up to a certain point. Painful Stare triggers. What kind of damage does Painful Stare do? The same kind of damage that triggered it, just like with other precision-type attacks (such as sneak attack or studied strike). If there is multiple choices on the damage that triggered it (ie, some lethal, some non-lethal), player makes the choice.
This reading, at least to me, is clear, concise and leaves no lingering rule discrepancies to argue about.
Barring some wild RAW jumping out from left field this seems generally reasonable, but it still seems to leave some ambiguity: for example, how would you adjudicate example 1.3 above?
Did the Barbarian deal lethal damage that was converted into nonlethal damage before being taken? (Damage dealt != Damage taken, PS deals lethal damage)
Did the Barbarian deal nonlethal damage? (Damage dealt == damage taken, PS deals nonlethal damage)
Or is this player choice territory, sitting too close to the line to call?
Also, I'm curious if you'd treat ability damage in the same way - for example:
Your mage ally casts Shadow Projection, and then attacks an enemy with their new form. They hit with their attack, and deal strength damage. Can you trigger Painful Stare? Does Painful Stare deal strength damage?
If so, then what about an attack that dealt multiple types of ability damage simultaneously - would the player triggering Painful Strike get to choose the type of ability damage?
Barring some wild RAW jumping out from left field this seems generally reasonable, but it still seems to leave some ambiguity: for example, how would you adjudicate example 1.3 above?
Did the Barbarian deal lethal damage that was converted into nonlethal damage before being taken? (Damage dealt != Damage taken, PS deals lethal damage)
Did the Barbarian deal nonlethal damage? (Damage dealt == damage taken, PS deals nonlethal damage)
Damage doesn't occur until it is dealt. If it is converted to non-lethal damage, Painful Stare deals non-lethal damage.
Or is this player choice territory, sitting too close to the line to call?
No, the damage dealt to the wizard is non-lethal after all is said and done. Once that damage is dealt, only then may Painful Stare be activated, even if it adds to the damage total.
Also, I'm curious if you'd treat ability damage in the same way - for example:
Your mage ally casts Shadow Projection, and then attacks an enemy with their new form. They hit with their attack, and deal strength damage. Can you trigger Painful Stare? Does Painful Stare deal strength damage?
If so, then what about an attack that dealt multiple types of ability damage simultaneously - would the player triggering Painful Strike get to choose the type of ability damage?
I am not sure how Pathfinder handles this particular situation (nothing official I can find), but I do know how D&D 3.5E handled the issue. The sneak attack damage would be negative energy damage, not ability damage/drain. The reasoning is that sneak attack damage is precision damage, and does hit point damage. Nothing is going to change that particular aspect of precision damage. So, we simply align the hit point damage to the closest energy type available (and energy drain/damage is almost always universally negative energy aligned).
It is a niche situation and requires a niche response, an exception made to keep everything consistent. Otherwise, we'd have to say that you simply don't do any sneak attack damage. Allowing sneak attack to do ability damage in that situation is only one step away from it being used against the players, and ... well... Think about how that would drastically alter the gameplay and YOUR experience by being one-shotted by a shadow with sneak attack?
Damage doesn't occur until it is dealt.
Given the inconsistent verbiage, I think this is another issue where the developers didn't have unified vision.
If it is converted to non-lethal damage, Painful Stare deals non-lethal damage.
No, the damage dealt to the wizard is non-lethal after all is said and done. Once that damage is dealt, only then may Painful Stare be activated, even if it adds to the damage total.
But I think we're past the point where someone is going to come up with a definitive RAW quote, so I appreciate your input and interpretation here. This seems consistent and, the more I think about it, thematically appropriate for an ability called Painful Stare.
I am not sure how Pathfinder handles this particular situation (nothing official I can find), but I do know how D&D 3.5E handled the issue. The sneak attack damage would be negative energy damage, not ability damage/drain. The reasoning is that sneak attack damage is precision damage, and does hit point damage. Nothing is going to change that particular aspect of precision damage. So, we simply align the hit point damage to the closest energy type available (and energy drain/damage is almost always universally negative energy aligned).
It is a niche situation and requires a niche response, an exception made to keep everything consistent. Otherwise, we'd have to say that you simply don't do any sneak attack damage. Allowing sneak attack to do ability damage in that situation is only one step away from it being used against the players, and ... well... Think about how that would drastically alter the gameplay and YOUR experience by being one-shotted by a shadow with sneak attack?
I'm not sure that comparing Sneak Attack and Painful Stare is going to be productive; they're very different abilities tied together with the precision damage label, and, as far as I can tell, nothing about precision damage itself prevents it from being ability damage in Pathfinder's rule set.
That said, this might be a reasonable way to handle things - game depending. Generally speaking, I trust the people I play with (and myself) to handle these sorts of situations responsibly as both GM's and players. Used carefully, ability damage typed precision damage could make for very memorable gameplay.
Non-lethal damage still counts as hit point damage. Albeit "non-lethal" hit point damage.
Nonlethal damage is hit point damage, so yes, it would apply.
Having made it halfway through that thread, my opinion that the rules weren't written in light of a single consistent interpretation hasn't changed. Maybe there's an argument in the latter half that would sway me, but I'm not that much a masochist. Whichever view best suits the niche situations in your game is the one you should use.
On the other hand, I was wrong to contrast nonlethal and hit point damage in the OP because it's irrelevant to the actual question at hand; Painful Strike doesn't care about hit point damage. Rather, it just says damage. The core problem is that nonlethal damage gets called out as "not real damage" in the nonlethal rules, and that could be construed as excluding abilities that would trigger from other forms of damage from triggering from nonlethal damage.
I think I'm on board with ignoring that phrase as fluff though, with no rules impact, unless there's something I've missed.
I'm not sure that comparing Sneak Attack and Painful Stare is going to be productive; they're very different abilities tied together with the precision damage label, and, as far as I can tell, nothing about precision damage itself prevents it from being ability damage in Pathfinder's rule set.
I agree that the two abilities are different, but it is the precision damage aspect (and that they are additional damage) that make them ideal to compare to each other. You are correct that there is nothing that prevents precision damage from being ability damage, except the complete lack of anything that deals ability damage as precision damage. If you can find an example of this happening, I'll rescind my stance on the matter.
Having made it halfway through that thread, my opinion that the rules weren't written in light of a single consistent interpretation hasn't changed. Maybe there's an argument in the latter half that would sway me, but I'm not that much a masochist. Whichever view best suits the niche situations in your game is the one you should use.
Good choice!
At the end of that thread, I think it came down to:
This FAQ discusses taking Weapon Specialization: Ray. It says you can take it but the bonus to the damage rolls is only added to hit point damage caused by a Ray attack and calls out that it doesn't increase ability score damage.
(Wording on Weapon Specialization: "Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.")
So with Weapon Specialization the FAQ shows that we need to translate "damage" into "hit point damage"
Another FAQ says "When it comes to modifiers that affect weapon damage rolls, or simply “damage rolls” (such as the bonus on damage rolls from Point-Blank Shot, inspire courage, and smite evil), special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll, apply them on hit point damage only..."
So, according to that, only hit point damage gets the bonus from Inspire Courage.
Inspire Courage not adding to non-lethal damage feels really weird, so.... yeah. "Damage," unless otherwise specified, means "hit point damage" and non-lethal damage counts as hit point damage.
A fairly safe rule of thumb for this... can you apply sneak attack to it? Yes? Painful stare can apply. No? Painful stare cannot apply.
Much like with sneak attack it doesn’t take much to realize that applying it to ability score damage, negative levels, or any other non-standard form of damage is exceedingly overpowered. Non-lethal damage on the other hand is virtually indistinguishable from actual HP damage mechanically until the recipient is rendered unconscious.
I agree that the two abilities are different, but it is the precision damage aspect (and that they are additional damage) that make them ideal to compare to each other. You are correct that there is nothing that prevents precision damage from being ability damage, except the complete lack of anything that deals ability damage as precision damage. If you can find an example of this happening, I'll rescind my stance on the matter.
Well, there's the Heart Thief:
When a heart thief confirms a critical hit with a claw, the target must succeed at a DC 22 Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Constitution damage as its organs are savaged (this ability damage counts as precision damage). The save DC is Strength-based.
And the Ahool:
When the ahool successfully grabs with its bite or deals damage with its bite attack to a creature it has grappled, the creature takes an additional 1d4 points of Dexterity damage. This damage is precision damage.
But I'm quibbling here. Half way through writing my original reply I noticed that the second FAQ Warped Savant pointed to above seems to solve the issue entirely, but I'm absolutely still going to show off my now useless examples!
Painful Strike would seem to be a modifier to, or at least a special ability that modifies, a damage roll, and so would apply to hit point damage only.
... And here I was trying to avoid that phrase.
Anyways, thanks Warped Savant.
Even if it weren't for that FAQ though, I think we mostly agreed on RAI - ability damage was clearly not intended, despite the total lack of clarity conveyed by the word damage. But, like I said at the beginning, I was looking for RAW specifically, and I think it's important to distinguish between RAW, RAI, and shared convention.
A fairly safe rule of thumb for this... can you apply sneak attack to it? Yes? Painful stare can apply. No? Painful stare cannot apply.
Much like with sneak attack it doesn’t take much to realize that applying it to ability score damage, negative levels, or any other non-standard form of damage is exceedingly overpowered. Non-lethal damage on the other hand is virtually indistinguishable from actual HP damage mechanically until the recipient is rendered unconscious.
I still think that comparison is problematic. For example, I'd apply the Invisibility standard to "attack" rather than the Sneak Attack standard.
I agree that the two abilities are different, but it is the precision damage aspect (and that they are additional damage) that make them ideal to compare to each other. You are correct that there is nothing that prevents precision damage from being ability damage, except the complete lack of anything that deals ability damage as precision damage. If you can find an example of this happening, I'll rescind my stance on the matter.Well, there's the Heart Thief
And the Ahool
I stand corrected. Statement about nothing dealing ability damage as precision damage rescinded.
After reviewing the two monsters, my stance on the matter of Sneak Attack or Painful Stare dealing ability damage remains unchanged (ie, they don't). One of the monsters deals this ability damage as part of a critical hit (with allowance for a saving throw to avoid) and the other as part of a bite attack in a grapple.
That Ahool is terrifying, actually.
As a side note, I reviewed the list of Rogue/Ninja tricks available and it seems that one Ninja Trick allows for ability damage during a sneak attack (Pressure Points). If precision damage could be ability damage, I doubt this particular trick would ever need to be created, since a Rogue could easily UMD a wand or staff with nasty spells and nail an ability score with their sneak attack dice from a sniping position.
I stand corrected. Statement about nothing dealing ability damage as precision damage rescinded.
After reviewing the two monsters, my stance on the matter of Sneak Attack or Painful Stare dealing ability damage remains unchanged (ie, they don't). One of the monsters deals this ability damage as part of a critical hit (with allowance for a saving throw to avoid) and the other as part of a bite attack in a grapple.
That Ahool is terrifying, actually.
As a side note, I reviewed the list of Rogue/Ninja tricks available and it seems that one Ninja Trick allows for ability damage during a sneak attack (Pressure Points). If precision damage could be ability damage, I doubt this particular trick would ever need to be created, since a Rogue could easily UMD a wand or staff with nasty spells and nail an ability score with their sneak attack dice from a sniping position.
Yeah, you'd have to be careful about how you used one of those as a GM. Their low ACs, lack of DR, and low initiative modifiers are mitigating factors for the right group though.
We're in complete agreement about ability damage at this point, if not for the same reasons. As I see it, the FAQ that Warped Savant pointed to, the one I referenced in my previous comment, is the distinguishing factor in these situations: both Painful Strike and Sneak Attack modify damage rolls, and so can only ever be applied to hit point damage. Precision damage doesn't necessarily interact with this FAQ, since, though it often does, it doesn't have to modify a damage roll (as seen in the case of the monsters).
Though, after reading through this thread again, I've realized I silently changed one of my assumptions about how Painful Stare works after reading that FAQ, and I should make that change explicit.
At the start of the thread I was interpreting Painful Stare as doing damage in and of itself, rather than modifying a damage roll. This seemed reasonable because Painful Strike triggers off of an attack that "deals damage" (there's that imprecision in the language between deals damage, damage dealt, and damage taken), not necessarily even your own attack, and takes an action to activate. This was an error, I think.
If Painful Stare instead modifies a damage roll then that clarifies a couple of issues - the damage type is the same as that of the triggering attack, though limited to hit point damage (however you interpret that), and DR applies to the total damage dealt by the attack instead of to the attack and Painful Stare separately.
That just leaves interpreting "attack that ... hits" as the remaining issue (other than the issue with "hit point damage", but I'd rather not derail the thread with that again).
At the start of the thread I was interpreting Painful Stare as doing damage in and of itself, rather than modifying a damage roll. This seemed reasonable because Painful Strike triggers off of an attack that "deals damage" (there's that imprecision in the language between deals damage, damage dealt, and damage taken), not necessarily even your own attack, and takes an action to activate. This was an error, I think.
Ah, yes. I see how a misunderstanding like that could create a number of issues. We are certainly on the same page. Glad that the FAQ was able to clarify the issue for you.