Am I missing something? Is there no Troop Template in Bestiary 3?
Correct, it shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate your own based on how it is presented.
But it seems like we will have to wait for another book, a GMG vol.2 so to speak, before we get the rules for it :(| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mechanically speaking, I'm not sure there's much to it beyond "add the Troop trait and then go wild" - kind of the same philosophy Swarms work on.
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I don't think we'll ever get a Troop Template, nor should we IMO since abilities that work on an individual level may not translate well at all to a mob, i.e. Ferocity.
Troop traits or examples would be nice, but it's easy enough to extrapolate based on which elements one wants from PF1 and which ones of those mirror PF2 Swarm Traits.
Choose the level and go to town using the creature charts.
AoE Strikes, Weakness to AoE damage, immune to being targeted like an individual, lots and lots of h.p. with a low AC to balance it (and maybe resistance/immunity to criticals, much like an Ooze!). Maybe Engulf or Trample. Lots of room for designing here, and you can run them by the community down in the Conversions or Homebrew sub-forums.
So yeah, steal some stuff from all sorts of critters that are suitable.
Choose the level and go to town...
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I don't think you need a template to turn a particular creature into a troop. That's not how 2E monster design works. You just say "I'd like a troop of X" and you design that troop as a new creature and include some abilities that make it look and feel like a lot of X.
What we do need though is a "monster creation roadmap" for designing troop creatures, like what kind of abilities troops should and shouldn't have. Should be doable to extrapolate that from the example troops though.
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Troops seem to have several specificities that could be used to create new types:
- the Form Up trait
- the Troop Defenses trait
- an attack mode that does variable damage depending on the number of actions it uses for the attack.
Aside from that, they appear to have unique abilities, so it would be free reign for the potential homebrewer.
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There are only 2 abilities a troop needs from the B3 Troop Defense and Form Up.
The only thing I wish troops included is rules for troops of creatures bigger than medium. As it stands you can't have a troop of ogres as that would just be 4 ogres which isn't a troop. I suppose you could just scale a troop to be 4x4 creatures not 4x4 squares. Also mixed troops would be fun kind of like a monster zoo from rouge-like/lite games, all the monsters in a dungeon are having their morning meeting when the party breaks down the door and they collectively dog pile the party.
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Yeah, a troop of large critters would have to double the dimensions all round. IMHO, the troop rules are not a very useful mechanism for simulating mass battles, but some folks seem really enthused about them.
I think that was explicitly mention as something James Jacobs wrote for kingmaker conversion
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Am I missing something? Is there no Troop Template in Bestiary 3?Correct, it shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate your own based on how it is presented.
But it seems like we will have to wait for another book, a GMG vol.2 so to speak, before we get the rules for it :(
Darn it...I have been running Ironfang Invasion waiting for this book to come out. I will have to cobble something together since what i have been using is different and there are no templates or road map for creating them....
Maybe we can get a web supplement or something???
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I mean the steps are pretty easy increase HP, lower ac. Figure out the thresholds for 16>12>8>Dispersed
I have been running the Ironfang Invasion adventure path since October 2019, converting it to Pathfinder 2nd Edition. The Ironfang Legion is a hobgoblin army, and most of the time I could use the three hobgoblins in PF2 Bestiary 1: Hobgoblin Soldier creature 1, Hobgoblin Archer creature 2, or Hobgoblin General creature 6. Sometimes I had to convert a different hobgoblin creature, such as Ironfang Heavy Trooper or Ironfang Forest Prowler, to PF2 rules.
The troop subtype was first introduced on page 76 of the 1st module, Trail of the Hunted, in the article "Ironfang Legion Toolbox." Thus, it was inevitable that I would need a troop unit. I made one when the PCs were 6th level.
I wanted the troop to mimic four Hobgoblin Soldiers working in formation, but take only three actions per turn. Four 1st-level creatures working together ought to have the same challenge as a 5th-level creature, so the Hobgoblin Troop would be 5th level.
1) I gave them the same AC as the Hobgoblin Soldiers, AC 18 (20 with shield raised), exept that their Formation ability was always active, which raised the AC to 19 (21 with shields raised).
2) I summed the hit points of the four soldiers. Four times 20 was 80.
3) I raised their Athletics from +6 to +10 and their Stealth from +6 to +8. I did not go to full +4 to balance giving them Medicine +7. My party had fought a hobgoblin garrison of Hobgoblin Soldiers, Ironfang Heavy Troopers, and Hobgoblin Archers, none trained in Medicine. When the party retreated temporarily to heal up with Treat Wounds, the hobgoblins could not Treat Wounds. I wanted to correct that oversight.
4) I did raise their weapon attack bonus from +8 to +12. I calculated how much damage four Hobgoblin Soldiers would deal with their longswords against AC 22 and set the damage of the Hobgoblin Troop's longsword so that one attack by the troop matches four individual attacks by the four individual soldiers.
5) I gave them weakness against area and splash effects to mimic how those effects would affect 4 individual creatures. I originally used weakness 8 against area damage from page 63 of the Gamemastery Guide, but the first encounter showed 8 was too low, so I raised it to 10.
6) To fit down corridors that 4 medium creatures could easily fit, I gave them a Compression mechanic.
7) Some of their items were in sets of four, but it takes only one action to Raise a Shield, one action to Draw a sword, etc. with all individual soldiers acting together in a group action.
The final version works well. I used 15 Hobgoblin Troops to represent an army of 60 Hobgoblin Soldiers, and used the Troops a few times later. The only problem is that the party is now 9th level, so I will soon need a bigger 9-soldier troop to stick within 4 levels of the party.
Hobgoblin Troop Creature 5
LE, Large, Goblin, Humanoid
Perception +11; darkvision
Languages Common, Goblin
Skills Athletics +10, Medicine +7, Stealth +8
Str +3, Dex +3, Con +2, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha -1
Items 4 hide armors, 4 longswords, 4 shortbows (10 arrows), 4 wooden shields (Hardness 3, HP 12, BT 6), Healer's Tools, Climbing Kit, Repair Kit, Compass, 4 rations
AC 19 (21 with shield raised); Fort +9, Ref +12, Will +9
HP 80; Weakness area damage 10; splash damage 4
Attack of Opportunity [Reaction]
Shield Block [Reaction]
Compression The troop compresses around obstacles, down to occupying only two of their four squares.
Speed 25 feet
Melee [Single Action] longsword +12 (versatile P), Damage 2d8+6 slashing
Ranged [Single Action] shortbow +12 (deadly 1d10, range increment 60 feet, reload 0), Damage 2d6 piercing
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So I ran Kingmaker a short while ago. We used the mass combat rules from that and my players absolutely hated those rules. 'Boring, overly complex, not realistic enough, yet another system we have to know, ect'. So I ended up handwaving battles for the rest of the campaign and just putting encounters onto the battlefield for them to fight PC style.
Recently I ran a homebrew where these players would do another mass combat but this time I used the Troop rules from B3, basically just created two troops of soldiers per each PC for them to control, gave a couple ranged volleys, one of them was a spellcasting unit, ect. Used the creature creation rules to build them. Then made a sizeable force of skeletons and zombies troops to oppose them.
I have to say, those same players who despised the mass combat rules from Kingmaker/Ultimate Campaign so much they almost quit Kingmaker, loved playing with the new troops in this way. Biggest takeaway from using troops from B3 as a form of mass combat....players didn't have to learn a new system - just know what a couple of abilities did. They had tons of fun with just having a few troop units under their control that used the same exact mechanics as the normal PF2e rules.
So I think for small battles, these troop unit rules are just fine, just some extra work for the GM maybe. Larger battles with thousands of troops....dunno...
I believe we're going to see what mass combat looks like in Kingmaker.
If it's anything like PF1e mass combat, I'll have to pass on it or tweak it quite a bit. I am buying the updated Kingmaker though
Creative Director
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I believe we're going to see what mass combat looks like in Kingmaker.
From the office of Expectation Managment:
There is indeed an element of mass combat in the upcoming Kingmaker hardcover, but it's not going to satisfy those who want a super detailed realistic mass combat game. It's not the main focus of the campaign, and will remain at about the same level of impact as it did in the 1st edition version.
My goal is to make it easier to run and understand and have it be less disruptive to the flow of game play, but I supsect that players who hated the rules in 1st edition will probably have similar reactions this time around. I'm trying to lessen the complaints about it being "overly complex" a bit, and also streamlining it so that the battles happen, in effect, during downtime.
As such, you'll certainly be able to play Kingmaker and have the mass combat stuff play out in the background. The size of the campaign has more than doubled, so there's absolutely enough to keep groups busy if they skip the mass combat elements.
It's not going to be a full-on mass combat subsystem usable in any Pathfinder game.
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I figured as much. The current troop rules work really well for small battles. I think we had a total of 16 troop units on the field (8 on each side), plus 4 PCs and 3 individual creatures (2 giants and a dragon). It was a long combat, but it was fun to play with the troop mechanics and my players had a blast controlling the troops around. They did have to figure out how to read an NPC's statblock but that was simple enough. They have decided to settle down and recruit troops in our campaign to protect their hometown and hope to engage in a battle again soon.
Oh hardest part of the troop rules was physical placement on the battlemap. We used index cards cut out to match the number of squares with all the stats on each square written on it.
I guess you could also use pennies, shiny rocks, or pawns if you have enough of them if you want your troops to spread out more or have different shapes rather than being perfect squares.
I’m not sure we couldn’t do a troop of large creatures. For example 4 Frost Giants could be done as a Troop with each threshold representing a Giant. I think this would work better than 4 individual giants since they would be a severe encounter for a level 10 party or moderate for a level 11 party. But a Troop might work better either being set up stronger or weaker depending on your needs this difference could represent the giants level of skill in working together.
Frost giants are Large, so four frost giants would occupy the same 20-foot by 20-foot square that 16 Medium creatures would. The troop most like a frost giant troop would be the 8th-level Hellknight Cavalry Brigade. The 14th-level Nightmarchers are closer in level to a frost giant troop, but the nightmarchers are incorporeal spirits.
The frost giant's rock throwing could copy the Hellknight Cavalry Brigade's Arrow Volley. Ice Stride is movement, so it needs no change. The giants' greataxe attacks could become an area of effect around the troop. The hard one is Chill Breathe. It is already an area of effect, so how could the frost giant troop make it feel like more of an area of effect than the greataxes?
Finally, adjust the numbers to the appropriate level based in the Gamemastery Guide's Building Creatures section.
I’m not sure we couldn’t do a troop of large creatures. For example 4 Frost Giants could be done as a Troop with each threshold representing a Giant. I think this would work better than 4 individual giants since they would be a severe encounter for a level 10 party or moderate for a level 11 party. But a Troop might work better either being set up stronger or weaker depending on your needs this difference could represent the giants level of skill in working together.Frost giants are Large, so four frost giants would occupy the same 20-foot by 20-foot square that 16 Medium creatures would. The troop most like a frost giant troop would be the 8th-level Hellknight Cavalry Brigade. The 14th-level Nightmarchers are closer in level to a frost giant troop, but the nightmarchers are incorporeal spirits.
The frost giant's rock throwing could copy the Hellknight Cavalry Brigade's Arrow Volley. Ice Stride is movement, so it needs no change. The giants' greataxe attacks could become an area of effect around the troop. The hard one is Chill Breathe. It is already an area of effect, so how could the frost giant troop make it feel like more of an area of effect than the greataxes?
Finally, adjust the numbers to the appropriate level based in the Gamemastery Guide's Building Creatures section.
The name escapes me at them moment but there's a troop of Rovagug followers that can cast Fireball so it might be worth starting there.
The name escapes me at them moment but there's a troop of Rovagug followers that can cast Fireball so it might be worth starting there.
Rancorous Priesthood creature 11.