Blade of Justice (Good people detector?)


Rules Discussion


Quote:
You call upon divine power and make a weapon or unarmed Strike against a foe you have witnessed harming an ally or innocent. The Strike deals two extra weapon damage dice if the target of your Strike is evil. Whether or not the target is evil, you can convert all the physical damage from the attack into good damage, and if you are a paladin, the Strike applies all effects that normally apply on a Retributive Strike (such as divine smite).

So,

1) Declare your action ( Blade of Justice ).
2) Roll to hit ( Success or critical success ).
3) Being able to know whether you get 2 extra weapon damage dice or not ( and because so, if the target is evil or not ).
4) Knowing that the target is not evil, you might convert all the physical damage into good damage. This means that you could hit a lvl -1 civilian with a critical blade of justice and deal to him no damage at all. Or, knowing that the target is not capable of evil deeds ( such as murder ), you could assume that he might be redeemed.

Anyway, leaving apart from now what a champion of good might do or not, it appears that you are given some sort of evil detector ( more precise than sense evil, which is vague and doesn't work at low and mid levels ) which also helps you not to break your oaths or tenets.

How do you see this?

Also, a little quick one ( don't want to open another thread just for this one ):

Are masks and circlets meant to be used together in this 2e?
I see there's no more "head" slot, but rather "worn circlet" and "worn mask".

Is it right to assume the can be used together?
For example, a Phylactery of Faithfulness and a Persona Mask.


This has been discussed before with Divine Lance, the most compelling argument to me being that someone who blasts people with unknown, potentially lethal magic to see if they're "Evil" can't themselves be Good for long. Especially since Evil as defined in these games isn't always, like, bad-enough-to-be-seriously-hurt-or-killed-over. Doubly so if you're actively swinging at innocent civilians — even if you don't hurt them, that's distressing and there isn't a good enough reason to do so.

As for the second thing, circlets are just really form-fitting crowns, aren't they? I see no reason why you couldn't wear one behind/above a mask. I guess they'd technically both go in the "head" slot, but I don't think that's as stringent a thing this edition.


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Since "worn circlet" and "worn mask" are different, you can wear one of each. You would not be able to wear two circlets or two masks, but there is no "head slot" in PF2. If the item were merely "worn" (as amulets are), you could wear and use as many of them as you have investment points for.


Alfa/Polaris wrote:
This has been discussed before with Divine Lance, the most compelling argument to me being that someone who blasts people with unknown, potentially lethal magic to see if they're "Evil" can't themselves be Good for long. Especially since Evil as defined in these games isn't always, like, bad-enough-to-be-seriously-hurt-or-killed-over. Doubly so if you're actively swinging at innocent civilians — even if you don't hurt them, that's distressing and there isn't a good enough reason to do so.

Yeah I was on that thread too.

What I wanted to discuss was something different.

It wouldn't be rare for good people to be tricked into fight each other ( those are enemies of the kingdom. They are the arson who killed my daughter, He has been pillaging village after village for over a year, and so on ).

My concerns is about the fact the champion, the way the feat is written, is able to understand whether a target is evil or not before even damaging it

I don't get extra dice?
The target is 100% not evil ( which leaves good and neutral creature, who which you could probably deal without violence ).

And also, about this part

Quote:
Whether or not the target is evil, you can convert all the physical damage from the attack into good damage

What would be the purpose of this?

Redeemer stuff?
Roleplay stuff?

Your current enemy might know about champion of goods and their strikes which don't harm "not evil people" and because so realize that probably both of them might have been tricked into fighting each other?

To deal with diplomacy during a fight we have the legendary feat which is lvl 15 stuff, requires a high DC check as well as 3 actions.

Talking about protect my allies, I might use it to deal no damage on that specific strike, then go for non lethal damage on the previous ones, just to beat my adversaries down without killing them.

I don't really know.
Maybe I am just overthinking about it.

Alfa/Polaris wrote:


As for the second thing, circlets are just really form-fitting crowns, aren't they? I see no reason why you couldn't wear one behind/above a mask. I guess they'd technically both go in the "head" slot, but I don't think that's as stringent a thing this edition.

Yeah, that was what I thought too at first.

What bothered me is that they decided not to use a generic "head slot" but specific parts ( Wondered if this had already been discussed or not. Or even better, answered. Even if I'm just probably still used to the old systems ).

David knott 242 wrote:


Since "worn circlet" and "worn mask" are different, you can wear one of each. You would not be able to wear two circlets or two masks, but there is no "head slot" in PF2. If the item were merely "worn" (as amulets are), you could wear and use as many of them as you have investment points for.

So, when it comes to rings and amulets ( or simply anything which don't require a specific slot like forehead, hands, back, etc... ) you are allowed to wear any number of them, aren't you?

The only limit would then be the 10 ( or 12 provided the given lvl 11 feat ) invested magic items limit.

Horizon Hunters

I see the ability as not a way to test if something is "Evil" but rather a way to prevent accidentally striking down those who aren't evil.

Imagine a situation where a village is accusing someone of being an evil witch, and this traveling champion is wandering through. He convinces the villagers to allow him to test her. If she is indeed evil, she will fall upon his blade, but if not she will remain unharmed. The villagers agree, and the champion makes the attack. The rest is up to GM at that point.

Or, as a Redeemer, you would rather not kill non-evil creatures so you use the good damage.

If you use this on a creature that you aren't sure about, you should roll the two extra die anyway and let the GM know which die are the extra if the target is Evil. This way you aren't meta gaming too hard. Converting the damage to Good would indeed hurt only evil creatures, but there may be some non-evil creatures in the future with a weakness to good damage, so it can be used on that too.


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HumbleGamer wrote:

My concerns is about the fact the champion, the way the feat is written, is able to understand whether a target is evil or not before even damaging it

I don't get extra dice?
The target is 100% not evil ( which leaves good and neutral creature, who which you could probably deal without violence ).

The Champion would get that knowledge as he is dealing damage. Once you've hit and are rolling to see how much damage you get, it's too late to stop it.

Quote:

And also, about this part

Quote:
Whether or not the target is evil, you can convert all the physical damage from the attack into good damage
What would be the purpose of this?

To allow the Champion an easy way to overcome resistances or exploit weaknesses of fiends, undead, and other such gribblies. It's another useful tool in fighting traditional evils, not neccessarily useful in dealing with more mortal ones...though...

Quote:
Talking about protect my allies, I might use it to deal no damage on that specific strike, then go for non lethal damage on the previous ones, just to beat my adversaries down without killing them.

...this is a viable use for it in the circumstances of fighting good v good

Quote:

I don't really know.

Maybe I am just overthinking about it.

Probably, but it's useful in the case you described to understand it.

Quote:
What bothered me is that they decided not to use a generic "head slot" but specific parts ( Wondered if this had already been discussed or not. Or even better, answered. Even if I'm just probably still used to the old systems ).

2e doesn't have slots anymore, just physical limitations and investiture to limit what you are wearing. So you can't physically wear two masks, or two sets of gloves, or two crowns/circlets properly, but you do have many fingers to adorn with magic rings.


The "convert all damage to good" part is just there to avoid physical resistances, I think.


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Cordell Kintner wrote:


If you use this on a creature that you aren't sure about, you should roll the two extra die anyway and let the GM know which die are the extra if the target is Evil. This way you aren't meta gaming too hard. Converting the damage to Good would indeed hurt only evil creatures, but there may be some non-evil creatures in the future with a weakness to good damage, so it can be used on that too.

Yes. Knowing about the extra 2 dice is metagame knowledge, not in game knowledge. The sword's already surging with power and it's not until you've struck and harmed them that there'd be a difference (and even then it may not be perceptible because hit points are so conceptual & vague, plus relative to the victim).

And as mentioned before, striking down evil-hearted people who've managed to remain innocent (with who knows how much effort and community oversight!) would be an evil act.

And the possibility of a non-evil w/ Weakness to Good already exists with redemption of fiends (et al). Though nearly unique, they exist in lore.
Plus if Infernal Healing returns (or exists in a narrative form) that might trigger this too.

I could see a VERY Neutral creature taking damage from all alignment types. :)

Liberty's Edge

No such thing as slots anymore. Only the GM's call on what your character can realistically wear.


Castilliano wrote:


I could see a VERY Neutral creature taking damage from all alignment types. :)

Me too ( and NX too ).

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