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Most battle forms of polymorph spells grant you natural attacks and say they are the only attacks you can make. Pest form, however, does not grant you any natural attacks and does not say you are incapable of making attacks.
Does that mean I can make an attack while in pest form? For example, if I was a monk with Druid Dedication and wildshape, would I be able to make high damage unarmed strikes as a wee little songbird?
I missed that.
You are tiny though and will have the reach problems of a Sprite.
Thank you I'll add it to the list of battle form problems
:)
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My reading is that you have no attack forms while in pest form.
I've thought about building a Monk PC who does this, but that Weakness keeps me from following through. That and the low speed hinders skirmishing so you'd never be safe without lots of party assistance.
A lot of investment gets you one little trick that in Golarion shouldn't even net much for espionage since good security should account for polymorph effects.
Low speed isn't as much an issue with a monk's incredible speed class ability though.
Incredible speed doesn't increase the flying speed of pest form. Because it doesn't specify a type (or types) it only increases your land speed.
Perhaps I'll play a swashbuckler then? Their Vivacious Speed seems to apply to all Speeds and the impressive damage from their finishers can be applied to just about anything agile or finesse.
I guess my question is what attack would you make? Pest form doesn't grant you any of the form's natural attacks, and all your gear is absorbed into your body, so what attack are you making? Fist? Song birds don't have hands. Rats and other tiny animals don't have hands either (except maybe monkeys) AND the spell specifically says that the form doesn't effect statistics.
What strike are you making in Pest Form?
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I guess my question is what attack would you make? Pest form doesn't grant you any of the form's natural attacks, and all your gear is absorbed into your body, so what attack are you making? Fist? Song birds don't have hands. Rats and other tiny animals don't have hands either (except maybe monkeys) AND the spell specifically says that the form doesn't effect statistics.
What strike are you making in Pest Form?
That's why Monk was mentioned as default. (A Swashbuckler might take longer to develop because it would need two Dedications.)
Also, any Morph (not Polymorph) effect that grants an unarmed attack would also work. Not sure if any Ancestry feats can access any morph effects (as opposed to the natural attacks which go away).So maybe Sorcerers could achieve this rather quickly...and die because they already shouldn't be in melee. Though it would be funny if a songbird sprouted demonic jaws. :)
The most obvious Stance is Crane Wing. :)
It does mention arms if one had a prickly GM, but Mountain Stance's Falling Boulders attacks do not mention a specific body part so the songbird could use that. Ditto Gorilla Stance (a slam which never mentions which part is slamming), so I'll stop there.
Also, many people interpret Fist as representing any body part (and I've see CRB quotes to that effect though Nethys doesn't mention that under the Fist description under Weapons.)
In a low magic world, this would be an awesome stealth tactic, yet in Golarion (et al), it'd be a gamble to use, (even if the whole party is with you.) There's very little to gain in direct combat (share a space) for a Weakness, poor AC, and slower speed. So I'd let a player do this, yet I'd have the empathy to forewarn them not to.
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That's why Monk was mentioned as default.
I think the intent of the spell is that it is used for scouting seeing the skill bonuses it grants and its duration considering other battle forms have shorter duration. Also for this to work assuming your GM let it work you would need to be able to heighten it to 4th because it can't be a flying form before than.
Than there is the issue of 0ft reach and whether you physically have the limbs to preform the types of attack.
And because this is multiclass it will take a long time to come online.
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How long it takes to come online depends on the build.
A Sorcerer could get it going at 2nd (and by "going" I mean "able to die as a cat").
For the full 24-hour cat/bird Monk, it would take lot longer, yes.
2nd Druid MCD, 4th Wild Shape, 8th Form Control, but not flying w/ Form Control until 11th. But as you can see, 4th can get the cat (et al) online if the party takes a lull between battles, with 7th for bird form.
And one's AC would be about 6 behind! Effectively every attack on AC does double damage + 5 if it's physical + whatever crit success effects those attacks (especially spells) might have.
So yeah, a death wish.
A Wild Shape Druid could do this by 2nd with Monk MCD or Martial Artist, and it'd only be really deadly instead of super deadly to themselves.
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Reminds me of a top level trap in PF1 that would transform a target into a fish and dump them in one pond of several, each with scores of fish. The Rogue almost succumbed and the party had the resources to fix him, but how to determine which fish is him?
He's the fish that one-shots all the others with +7d6 Sneak Attacks!
I’m all for lemur-fu. It runs in to steal your apple then kicks you twice in the face as it bolts away.
Mechanically speaking, I don’t see how even with the monk features it would allow an attack in pest form. However, since I see no real benefit to it that doesn’t cost a lot of investment and high risk to the player, I sure as heck wouldn’t prevent my player from doing it. I think it’s a big no with PFS.
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As unintuitive as it sounds, I don't believe you need a fist to make a fist attack. A fist attack could be a bite, headbutt, kick, or full body slam by a squrriel.
The developers likely used "fist" merely to avoid confusion with other terms, like Unarmed, and also because for most traditional characters, that actually is what it is the majority of the time.
I've thought about building a Monk PC who does this, but that Weakness keeps me from following through. That and the low speed hinders skirmishing so you'd never be safe without lots of party assistance.
Yes it is a clear oversight but not an issue that needs an urgent fix.
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I guess my question is what attack would you make? Pest form doesn't grant you any of the form's natural attacks, and all your gear is absorbed into your body, so what attack are you making? Fist? Song birds don't have hands. Rats and other tiny animals don't have hands either (except maybe monkeys) AND the spell specifically says that the form doesn't effect statistics.
What strike are you making in Pest Form?
I can make just about any form of unarmed attack I want, and that the GM will allow. Without an ability or feature of some kind it will use fist stats though.
Cross-posting the relevant rules from another thread:
Unarmed Attacks
Almost all characters start out trained in unarmed attacks. You can Strike with your fist or another body part, calculating your attack and damage rolls in the same way you would with a weapon. Unarmed attacks can belong to a weapon group (page 280), and they might have weapon traits (page 282). However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so.
Table 6–6: Unarmed Attacks lists the statistics for an unarmed attack with a fist, though you’ll usually use the same statistics for attacks made with any other parts of your body. Certain ancestry feats, class features, and spells give access to special, more powerful unarmed attacks. Details for those unarmed attacks are provided in the abilities that grant them.
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I'd let you do it, though uh, it's really bad.
You start at -2 AC, 15 less Speed, 0 reach, and weakness 5 physical, and it only gets worse at higher levels.
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I'd let you do it, though uh, it's really bad.
You start at -2 AC, 15 less Speed, 0 reach, and weakness 5 physical, and it only gets worse at higher levels.
And that's why the enemy will never see it coming! XD
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Nope there is no controversy RavingDork is just reading the rules and having fun. It's not an effective tactic unless surprise is really important to you, or your plot lines include Disney Princesses.
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I can't help but think that the 20th-level character wanting to keep a low profile whilst annihilating the invading orc army as a simple songbird would make for a pretty good start to a grand new legend.
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Or a Champion could remain in songbird form, using its Reactions to defend the Disney Princess. Or 'their', so that she's nigh invulnerable. :)
Of course, any competent party disguised so could work. It wouldn't have to be just monks if they're going to drop out of Wild Shape.
"Dismiss/Flame Strike!"
Maybe could have a party of Leshy except they're all familiars while the real party in Pest Form pretends to be their familiars.