SO been reading up on the spell permanency, but i see flat costs for no reason, is it because of the line Depending on the spell, you must be of a minimum caster level and must expend a specific gp value of diamond dust as a material component"? Cause on the services page enlarge person is 1x1x10=10gp + permanency which is 9x5x10=450, so where is the other listed 2040 of the 2500 cost coming from? I have searched and see absolutely no info on it, Links to teh info will be greatly appreciated, thanks
That 2500 gp is the material component, yes. If you're getting spells cast as a service that cost is on top of the material component.
Components V, S, M (see tables below)
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Depending on the spell, you must be of a minimum caster level and must expend a specific gp value of diamond dust as a material component.
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Spell - Minimum Caster Level - GP Cost
Enlarge person - 9th - 2,500 gp
Spells are written assuming that you're the caster. Spellcasting service costs from some other party aren't built into material component costs.
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As avr linked, the permanency spell has a material component cost that varies depending on the particular spell being made permanent.
As for the "Services" cost, look at footnote 3 of Table 6-9 on page 159:
See spell description for additional costs.
You have to pay the spellcaster for any material components of the spell. Depending on the spell - and your GM - you might also need to pay for a particularly unusual and costly focus component. (Most of the time you shouldn't have to pay this, but some foci are extremely specific.)
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Is there a method to determine the costs for spells not included in the list? What about which spells can be made permanent (looking at spells outside the CRB)?
Spells that the design team felt "should" be made permanent have a listed cost. For spells from sources other than the CRB, the cost is listed in the individual spell descriptions. (Aura sight, for example.)
If there's no listed cost, the design team felt the spell should not be allowed to be permanent. Usually for power reasons, but possibly for thematic reasons as well.
If you want to allow additional spells to be made permanent in your home game, the formula is (2500gp x spell level) and requires a minimum caster level of (8 + spell level). So phase door, a 7th level wizard spell, costs 17,500 gp and requires a minimum CL of 15. Take it on a case-by-case basis and make sure to think through the ramifications of allowing a spell to be permanent. Is letting the wizard have a permanent shield for 2500 gp reasonable for your game?
The Permanency spell is subject to a lot of GM discretion insofar as allowing what spells can or cannot become permanent, so expect a lot of table variance on this. Personally, I allow just about any spell with a 1 hour/lvl duration to become permanent, and some spells that are 10 min/lvl as well -- obv, there are some 10 min/lvl spells that are too good to become permanent. Most spells that have 1 min/lvl durations I generally don't allow to become permanent-- it would be rare for me to allow a 1 min/lvl spell to become permanent.
For example, Permanent Shield spell? -- absolutely not. But a Permanent Mage Armor? Sure. Although the spells do pretty much the exact same thing of +4 to shield/armor bonus to AC, it comes down to a duration issue-- once you're level 10+, Mage Armor can be cast first thing in the morning and it lasts 10 hours, which is pretty much all day so you only need 1 spell slot to do this, so making this permanent isn't that big of a deal, but a Shield spell would only last 10 minutes, so making this permanent represents a significant "Spell Slots per day" boost, especially if you allow multiple 1 min/lvl spells to be permanent.
I don't think generally-allowing 1hour/lvl and 10min/lvl spells to become permanent is game-breaking, because countering these effects as a GM is as easy as a Dispel (vs. the Permanency), Greater Dispel (vs. up to 1 spell per 4 CLs), or Mage's Disjunction to simply obliterate everything.
Anywho, to the OP's question: I use the formula listed in the Permanency spell description for allowing these spells to become permanent, and like others have said, it's 2500gp x whatever the spell's level + whatever you'd like to tip the wizard guild.
So the cost in the tables is the materiel cost of it, ok... So what about say animal growth, which has no material component to the spell, unlike Enlarge person has iron dust as a requirement?
Also thanks for all the answers given and links shared as it helps me understand it easier!
So the cost in the tables is the materiel cost of it, ok... So what about say animal growth, which has no material component to the spell, unlike Enlarge person has iron dust as a requirement?
Also thanks for all the answers given and links shared as it helps me understand it easier!
The material cost is for the diamond dust for the Permanency spell itself, yeah. Animal Growth is a level 5 spell, so it would be 12,500gp worth of diamond dust + tip, and would require a minimum caster level of 13 to cast the Permanency spell. This is one of those spells that would be subject to GM approval, because for 1) it's not on the list of commonly-allowed permanent spells, and 2) this is a 1 min/level spell.
Personally I would not allow this spell to become permanent, because it's extremely powerful and it's a 1 min/lvl spell, so this represents a situation where a 5th level spell slot becomes infinite times per day rather than 1 time, or 2 times per day.
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When you're talking about making a spell permanent with the permanency spell, you're actually talking about two spells. Confused?
Let's say you want permanent tongues.
1. First you cast tongues. It has a vocal and material component cost. (The material is negligible and is considered a part of every spell component pouch and therefore free.)
2. Then you cast permanency, targeting yourself (specifically the tongues spell on you). Permanency has vocal, somatic, and material components. See table below. Looking at the text of the permanency spell:
Depending on the spell, you must be of a minimum caster level and must expend a specific gp value of diamond dust as a material component.
For tongues, the material component cost (of the permanency spell) is 7,500 gp of diamond dust.
I get the basic principal its the diamond dust pricing I can't get or where the pricing is coming from, as thru searches I have found no evidence of the cost of diamond dust or it anywhere except for a spell component. So basically where is the 2500g for diamond dust listed as this is the price per lvl of spell, also then why do certain spells ignore the standard pricing as its been mentioned before?
Permanency uses 2500 gp/spell level +/- a fudge factor where the writers thought it needed one. Why the fudge factor is present isn't recorded, but in the case of wall of force I imagine it's to make dungeons with force walls slightly less unimaginably expensive.
Other spells with diamond dust as a material component don't follow this pricing at all. They have their own pricing based on discouraging constant use of stoneskin (or whatever) while keeping the price workable for using it when needed.
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I get the basic principal its the diamond dust pricing I can't get or where the pricing is coming from, as thru searches I have found no evidence of the cost of diamond dust or it anywhere except for a spell component. So basically where is the 2500g for diamond dust listed as this is the price per lvl of spell, also then why do certain spells ignore the standard pricing as its been mentioned before?
I think we're just very slightly misunderstanding each other here.
Spells that use diamond dust (or diamonds, or really any other expensive material component) really only care about the value of the component. If you want to cast permanency on enlarge person, you have to go the diamond dust store and say "give me 2,500 gp worth of diamond dust."
Diamond dust is a material component for permanency. Not for enlarge person. If you cast enlarge person and don't make it permanent there is no material component cost.
What spells do you see that ignore "standard pricing?"
The pricing of diamond dust is 2500g where is this coming from as I have found zero sources saying as such, also some spells cost less at the same spell lvl as say enlarge person, example Decrepit Disguise.
Diamond dust is a commodity. 2500 gp refers to an amount of diamond dust; spend more or less gp and you will get more or less diamond dust.
And yes, the 2500 gp/spell level for permanency is a rule of thumb not an absolute rule. Omnimage and I have noted other exceptions to the rule of thumb above.