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I can confirm screws coming out of table legs is due to use and time.
What are you favorite chargen systems?I’m a big fan of the PF2 Character Generation.
Pathfinder 2, Starfinder, plus Robotech, Dead Reign and TMNT After the Bomb.
And probably Cyberpunk Red though I'm still in the reading the book phase.
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Im rethinking a bit on backstories and systems.
In D&D/PF often, not always, but often you start at level 1. You go from rookie to veteran during the life of the campaign. It doesn't make much sense to be a member of a prestigious club, like say dragon hunters, but still be a first level noob. I mean, what did you do in this group? Hold the beer? No, becoming a dragon hunter would be the appropriate goal not something in your background. If the players want to do this starting at session 1, you have to start the game at higher level.
Now Traveller is interesting. Chargen is done with random elements. This takes a bit of the agency away from players and I can see why they may not like it from a backstory perspective. Not only do your career choices determine the skills the character has, but also the potential life events. Your backstory is randomly developed. The random elements are not deep though, so they allow plenty of room for the player to flesh out exactly how they happened. You just lose the ability to dictate every exact detail.
The thing I really like about Traveller is that I think about what I want my character to be good at doing, and then the random chargen helps me envision my character's growth and development into that. I've always been good at fitting into campaigns and inside class type systems. I find it guides me to making really interesting and ufn characters to play.
The other thing about Traveller is that there are no levels. Older characters with more career(s) under their belt, will be better at things, but they also get weaker physically. Though, once the game starts you are good to go and advancement is slow and incremental. You wont be going from dirt farmer to demi-god like D&D.
Merits and flaws systems are touchy for me. I've had bad min/maxer experiences. Some folks think that taking a flaw for a mechanical benefit means they have to earn it through extraneous roleplay. I've had too many clumsy, dumb, arrogant players at the table. It becomes obnoxious after awhile and its always hamfisted.
I do like 5E background pieces. They help envision a character for noobs, which is great in a mechanical system like D&D. Though, they are pretty thin on content and most GMs in my experience never ask about them. Traits helped this too in PF, but often they just became extra feats to min/max for people and they are quickly forgotten during RP. On one hand, you got training wheel crutches, on the other you got munchkin chow. Obviously, YMMV and every table is a little different.
Backstory IMO is only meant to accomplish a few things: 1. give a brief highlight of important events in the PC's life, 2. explain how this PC got the skills/feats/powers/etc they have, and 3. provide the GM/DM/Judge/Storyteller some kind of fodder to weave your PC directly into their narrative. That's it.
I feel that this is a bit limiting. Backstory can also help me as a player establish an arc for my character by allowing me to define where I've been with an eye toward where I want to go.
Now Traveller is interesting. Chargen is done with random elements. This takes a bit of the agency away from players and I can see why they may not like it from a backstory perspective. Not only do your career choices determine the skills the character has, but also the potential life events. Your backstory is randomly developed. The random elements are not deep though, so they allow plenty of room for the player to flesh out exactly how they happened. You just lose the ability to dictate every exact detail.
The thing I really like about Traveller is that I think about what I want my character to be good at doing, and then the random chargen helps me envision my character's growth and development into that. I've always been good at fitting into campaigns and inside class type systems. I find it guides me to making really interesting and ufn characters to play.
I think what I like about PF2's creation is that it gives the same stages of development feel as that kind of table build that games like Traveller has without rolling on a table for everything.
When I choose my Ancestry - I have Ability boosts that are defined by my ancestry, but there is a free that I can put where I want.
When I choose my Background - it's the same.
When I choose my Class I get the one, and then I have my free boosts.
I can look at that as a very simple ABC's of character creation or I can use that as a spring board to thinking deeper about where my character came from because my Ancestry choices represent the characters foundation or youth - the Background represents the choices made while growing up - the class represents the primary focus of my characters education and the free boosts allow me to focus on the sort of extra-curriculars my character engaged in while learning how to do his class stuff.
It's the same birth to play approach, but I have more active choices to make than the table method.
Stepping over the bounds is always tricky. For some, the player has firm control over the PC, the GM everything else. Some folks like some GM interaction and a little shared ownership of the PCs, NPCs, or both.
I was just thinking about the board game Android. There is a mechanic in that game thats called light/dark shifting. Each player has a character who has a light to dark meter. In order to play actions to your benefit (light), you need to be able to pay the light meter cost. Doing so shifts your meter dark. On other players turns, you have to play dark actions on their characters to shift your meter back to the light side.
It's really interesting and makes the board game way more interactive than they usually turn out to be. It's also a "take that" mechanic which is always controversial among gaming groups. I always sort of wished they would have made an RPG in the Android universe.
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It's really interesting and makes the board game way more interactive than they usually turn out to be. It's also a "take that" mechanic which is always controversial among gaming groups. I always sort of wished they would have made an RPG in the Android universe.
They did. It’s a setting for Fantasy Flight’s Genesys system. The book is called Android: Shadow of the Beanstalk.
It is the second of the three to-date released settings (the others being Realms of Terrinoth and KeyForge: Secrets of the Crucible.
It's really interesting and makes the board game way more interactive than they usually turn out to be. It's also a "take that" mechanic which is always controversial among gaming groups. I always sort of wished they would have made an RPG in the Android universe.They did. It’s a setting for Fantasy Flight’s Genesys system. The book is called Android: Shadow of the Beanstalk.
It is the second of the three to-date released settings (the others being Realms of Terrinoth and KeyForge: Secrets of the Crucible.
Oh, so that works with Genesys? I guess I thought that was another one of the Android fiction lines.
Edit: I was thinking of Worlds of Android
Oh, so that works with Genesys? I guess I thought that was another one of the Android fiction lines.
Edit: I was thinking of Worlds of Android
Sure does: the settings present the rules in such a way that you can play with just the setting book.
Sure does: the settings present the rules in such a way that you can play with just the setting book.Oh, so that works with Genesys? I guess I thought that was another one of the Android fiction lines.
Edit: I was thinking of Worlds of Android
I took a peak at the rulebook and the symbols from the special dice are annoying. Instead of saying success or despair they just use symbol icons and it makes it feel like a boardgame. Ick.
I am determined to find out if there is any light/dark shifting or if its juts generic gensys ported over to Android. I am hopeful because some folks say SW has its own unique rules and systems outside the core. That would I imagine be a huge selling point for exploring what Gensys has to offer.
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I took a peak at the rulebook and the symbols from the special dice are annoying. Instead of saying success or despair they just use symbol icons and it makes it feel like a boardgame. Ick.
Yeah, the narrative dice aren't for everyone. I'm surprised you didn't bring it up when you were talking about having played FFG's Star Wars.
I am determined to find out if there is any light/dark shifting or if its juts generic gensys ported over to Android. I am hopeful because some folks say SW has its own unique rules and systems outside the core. That would I imagine be a huge selling point for exploring what Gensys has to offer.
The board game and the roleplaying game take place in the same world, but the conceits of the game are very different. The light/dark shifting mechanic in that game was because the core game play was detectives working a case and you had to weigh your actions against whether they benefited the case or benefited you. The Android: Netrunner board game didn't have that same mechanic for example.
The people who have told you of unique rules and systems for each line in the Star Wars game were correct, and that is true across all of the Genesys games. Edge of the Empire ran on a sub-system called Obligation, Age of Rebellion on a sub-system called Duty and Force and Destiny operated on a Morality system that affected where your PC sat on a spectrum of Light Side User to Dark Side User.
What the Android RPG took from the board game/fiction world was a unique mechanic for running factions that uses a sub economy made up of the favors your players owe to each faction in game. It is similar to Edge of the Empire's "Obligation" mechanic but is less restrictive and allows you to get your hands dirty with each and every syndicate in the game without making your character unplayable.
The other unique to Shadow of the Beanstalk mechanic are the hacking rules. Star Wars had a system for "slicing" but it was a little clunky so Android introduced a wholly new version of it.
I took a peak at the rulebook and the symbols from the special dice are annoying. Instead of saying success or despair they just use symbol icons and it makes it feel like a boardgame. Ick.
Yeah, the narrative dice aren't for everyone. I'm surprised you didn't bring it up when you were talking about having played FFG's Star Wars.
I am determined to find out if there is any light/dark shifting or if its juts generic gensys ported over to Android. I am hopeful because some folks say SW has its own unique rules and systems outside the core. That would I imagine be a huge selling point for exploring what Gensys has to offer.The board game and the roleplaying game take place in the same world, but the conceits of the game are very different. The light/dark shifting mechanic in that game was because the core game play was detectives working a case and you had to weigh your actions against whether they benefited the case or benefited you. The Android: Netrunner board game didn't have that same mechanic for example.
The people who have told you of unique rules and systems for each line in the Star Wars game were correct, and that is true across all of the Genesys games. Edge of the Empire ran on a sub-system called Obligation, Age of Rebellion on a sub-system called Duty and Force and Destiny operated on a Morality system that affected where your PC sat on a spectrum of Light Side User to Dark Side User.
What the Android RPG took from the board game/fiction world was a unique mechanic for running factions that uses a sub economy made up of the favors your players owe to each faction in game. It is similar to Edge of the Empire's "Obligation" mechanic but is less restrictive and allows you to get your hands dirty with each and every syndicate in the game without making your character unplayable.
The other unique to Shadow of the Beanstalk mechanic are the hacking rules. Star Wars had a system...
Thanks for the update. The one time I played FFG SW I only had a character sheet and the GM had two sets of dice we shared. I never really had a chance to read any of the game rules material.
A favor system sounds really appropriate as well for Android. Im really curious now about the hacking rules. Thats more of a netrunner thing but no reason not to combine them!
A favor system sounds really appropriate as well for Android. Im really curious now about the hacking rules. Thats more of a netrunner thing but no reason not to combine them!
The Beanstalk RPG includes elements from all of the Android released games: Netrunner, New Angeles, and Android to create a complete punk-noir world that has flavor notes borrowed from things like Bladerunner and Shadowrun, and all its other genre forebearers.
For the Hacking system, the storyteller builds a network map which includes systems and sub systems beyond what the player is looking for. Barriers are placed throughout that the player has to get through. The PC treats it very much as transporting themselves Johnny Mnemonic style into the Network itself and attempting a physical run through a space that represents the system map the GM created.
If you die in the real world, you can continue to live in the network... there are many ghosts in the machine.
Thats awesome. I wish I had thought to ask the GM to check this system out. We are using Carbon 2185 which is a cyberpunk reskin of 5E. We figured everyone knew 5E so it would be easy to jump into. So far, the game feels like beer and pretzel D&D in a cyberpunk T-Shirt.
I highly recommend it, even with the narrative dice. You get used to it very quickly, and while it may look complex due to the symbols it is in fact simple and intuitive.
My favorite character generation method is the one where you use three dragon ante cards in a tarot like spread. It has a great amount of material for added depth and also has the unpredictability of random stats with the "balance" of point buy.
The method can be found in Dragon magazine #346.
And speaking of free Three Dragon Ante...
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Between systems with custom dice and systems that release in world card games - does anyone have a favorite game accessory or play aid?
I’d say that Paizo’s Bestiary Battle Cards are an excellent accessory that makes organizing combat very easy.
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The condition cards for PF1 were pretty helpful. Also, the Paizo brand combat tracker is useful in many systems.
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Combat Tracker is an excellent accessory. I bought it right before Covid, used it one time before we transitioned our games online, now it just sits there waiting for normal play to resume.
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Oh, Paizo... I just can't quit you!
Between systems with custom dice and systems that release in world card games - does anyone have a favorite game accessory or play aid?
I’d say that Paizo’s Bestiary Battle Cards are an excellent accessory that makes organizing combat very easy.
I'd say that mine would have to be Magpie Games' Deck of Mysterious Objects for their supernatural/feminine horror RPG Bluebeard's Bride.
They are so evocative... and so disturbing.
I've played RPGs for a long time, and BB is the only horror game that really and truly can scare me.
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What actually is the Deck of Mysterious Objects Haladir? I took a look at your link and it tells me very little besides the price.
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What actually is the Deck of Mysterious Objects Haladir?
The short answer is: It is a deck of cards, with each card describing a cursed item.
But that description doesn't do it justice. To really understand the Deck of Mysterious Objects, you must understand the game.
Bluebeard's Bride is a supernatural/personal horror RPG based on the traditional French cautionary fairy-tale of the same name. It is intended to be played in a single session.
The game always opens with a ritual of the GM recounting the fairy tale. This is the version I tend to use...
In Bluebeard's Bride, the players all control the Bride collectively, each player controlling one aspect of her personality (Animus, Fatale, Mother, Virgin, Witch). There is a mechanic called The Ring, which indicates which aspect is in physical control at the moment.
The game proceeds by the Bride entering a Room of the house and exploring it to learn about Bluebeard's past and what may have happened there. Each Room has a theme about femininity and the associated horrors (e.g. standards of beauty, the trials of motherhood, sexuality and its perils, self-image, wifely duties, etc). The Mysterious Objects in the room are all keys to the horrors that have occurred in the room and each contain some sort of horror therein. After the Bride has experienced the horrors of the room, she can Propose a Truth about what actually happened there, and then decides whether that Truth indicates Faithfulness or Disloyalty to Bluebeard, and collects an appropriate Token from the room. (Accepting a Token of Faithfulness heals a point of Trauma the Bride may have taken during the exploration; accepting a Token of Disloyalty causes a point of Trauma.)
After the bride has collected three Tokens of either Faithfulness or Disloyalty, she may proceed to the Final Room, where she will meet her ultimate fate. That fate depends on whether or not she enters the Final Room, and whether she was Faithful of Disloyal. The Bride always meets a tragic and/or horrific end, but some endings are worse than others.
The rulebook presents about a half-dozen Mysterious Objects as examples for the GM, and the Deck of Mysterious Objects provides another 52. They are all lavishly illustrated in the same art style as the main book.
And they are all creepy AF.
I have pressed some of them into service in other RPGs as more traditional "cursed items."
A conversation came up recently I was involved with about gaming (D&D in particular) and whether or not it is an art form. One of the participants was asking a question if recent developments at Wizards/Hasbro to elevate D&D development and provide the brand with more attention, was going to be a "selling out" of D&D. Further descriptions were about a standardizing of the D&D product and thus an artistically inhibited lowest common denominator design is to be expected. The question was posed if this was akin to the point of a music band selling out as the term came to popularity in the 80's and 90's.
Something didnt quite sit right with me comparing Wizbros and D&D to a band. To me, their role was more of an instrument company like Fender or Casio was to Bruce Springsteen or Duran Duran. It made even more sense when I started comparing settings to sheet music, and organized play to company assisted playing lessons. Wizbros and D&D design team are not the artists, they are the artisans. Designers understand game theory and design games the way a craftsmen understands music theory and make guitars, pianos, or whatever. They produce a product for artists.
So, now when I talk about systems im thinking in terms of instruments. Some instruments are better than others for certain styles of music. Some, are just simply crafted better leading to a higher quality of art. Some instruments are limited to what they can produce, some are incredibly diverse in their capability. Swap in game for music, and system for instrument, and there you have my viewpoint on the gaming as art debate.
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Further descriptions were about a standardizing of the D&D product and thus an artistically inhibited lowest common denominator design is to be expected. The question was posed if this was akin to the point of a music band selling out as the term came to popularity in the 80's and 90's.
I guess my two cents on this particular point would be that if the concern is that D&D would be selling out now and that it might lead to a lowest common denominator design in the future, I would have to say that these concerns are perhaps a little late.
D&D "sold out" in the sense of chasing the almighty dollar no matter what in the days of D&D cartoons, lunch boxes, and pencil erasers. As for the lowest common denominator product to get to mass appeal, I don't know that it can be simplified much further than the current offering.
Further descriptions were about a standardizing of the D&D product and thus an artistically inhibited lowest common denominator design is to be expected. The question was posed if this was akin to the point of a music band selling out as the term came to popularity in the 80's and 90's.I guess my two cents on this particular point would be that if the concern is that D&D would be selling out now and that it might lead to a lowest common denominator design in the future, I would have to say that these concerns are perhaps a little late.
D&D "sold out" in the sense of chasing the almighty dollar no matter what in the days of D&D cartoons, lunch boxes, and pencil erasers. As for the lowest common denominator product to get to mass appeal, I don't know that it can be simplified much further than the current offering.
I had similar thought, but also im not sure a product can sell out. I mean, do folks consider "new coke" Coke Cola selling out?
Perhaps its my interpretation of giving up artistic license to market oneself. I dont see how a product can do that, its already a marketable commodity. Like saying Guild guitars sold out when they stop using Brazilian Rosewood back in the mid 70's. They didnt sell out they were never artists, but simply artisans making a product to begin with. Its the musicians that make art, and can thus "sell out".
In D&D terms, I guess a proper use of the term selling out would be directed towards Critical Role. These are folks using the product to make a game, to create art. If they gave up some creative freedom for money, than that would be selling out in D&D terms.
Perhaps its my interpretation of giving up artistic license to market oneself. I dont see how a product can do that, its already a marketable commodity. Like saying Guild guitars sold out when they stop using Brazilian Rosewood back in the mid 70's. They didnt sell out they were never artists, but simply artisans making a product to begin with. Its the musicians that make art, and can thus "sell out".
You might be overthinking it a tad with your music, musician, instrument analogies.
I don't think we need to try to shoe-horn TTRPG content into a box intended for art as its primary mode is still as an adventure game.
A conversation came up recently I was involved with about gaming (D&D in particular) and whether or not it is an art form.
I think there's really no question on the matter: TTRPGs are absolutely a distinct art form.
I'd go so far as to say that RPG design and RPG play are distinct art forms, as the skills needed overlap but not the same.
And, as any art form, TTRPGs can be commercialized and/or exploited for profit, both by the artists themselves and by those who hold the copyright to the art.
I think there's really no question on the matter: TTRPGs are absolutely a distinct art form.
I'd go so far as to say that RPG design and RPG play are distinct art forms, as the skills needed overlap but not the same.
And, as any art form, TTRPGs can be commercialized and/or exploited for profit, both by the artists themselves and by those who hold the copyright to the art.
I think there is absolutely question on the matter or we wouldn't all be coming to different conclusions.
So let us look at it from the perspective of the definition of an art form.
1: a form or medium of expression recognized as fine art
Tabletop Role-Playing Games would be quite debatable here as you cannot at present acquire an AFA, BFA or MFA in Role-Play, but you can get all three in game design.
2a: an unconventional form or medium in which impulses regarded as artistic may be expressed
A Broad enough description that could easily be seen to encompass Role-Play
b: an undertaking or activity enhanced by a high level of skill or refinement
The most colloquial definition which leads to the most open debate.
So arguably, yes, an art form. Officially recognized as an art form, surely not. Is D&D its own unique form of art separate from other RPG's, absolutely not.
So arguably, yes, an art form. Officially recognized as an art form, surely not.
Are you suggesting that there must exist some sort of authority or organization whose job it is to determine whether or not a given creative activity is an art form?
Is chess an art form or is it a game? Are they RPG's role playing games or RPAF's role playing art forms? Where is the line drawn?
Sometimes I want to be part of a massive story undertaking with epic plots and cinematic moments. Sometimes I want to just play simulated violence games where the outcome is decided randomly by dice.
Where does the art begin and the game end?
It's not always art in spite of being a creative activity. Are all creative activities art for that matter?
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"What is Art?" is a question that a great many philosophers have spent countless hours and thousands of books attempting to answer.
Which of course reminds me of an old joke...
The First Law of Philosophy: For every philosopher, there exists and equal and opposite philosopher.
The Second Law of Philosophy: They're both wrong.
It's not always art in spite of being a creative activity. Are all creative activities art for that matter?
Socrates didnt think so. He thought public speaking was a simple task not more artistic than preparing food. Socrates also said he knew nothing really.
So arguably, yes, an art form. Officially recognized as an art form, surely not.Are you suggesting that there must exist some sort of authority or organization whose job it is to determine whether or not a given creative activity is an art form?
I'm not suggesting it out of the blue without any prompting. The definition I quoted suggests in its primary entry for 'art form' that for something to be considered an art form it must be recognized as a medium that is part of the Academic Tradition known as the Fine Arts. There are academies, colleges, conservatories and accrediting bodies that do actually determine what mediums are included in the Fine Arts curricula.
You can study game theory at an academic level. Much like music theory the study is the mechanical and mathematical precision of performance not the creative quality. Which is why I like to make the distinction between a game designer and game master.
You can argue that splits hairs too. I mean, prog metal bands have zero soul (in my opinion) but are entirely precise in their performance. The mechanics are the measure first and fore most in their consideration. I don't consider the game of chess to be art itself, but chess masters can certainly be artists. YMMV
You can study game theory at an academic level.
There is no degree in Game Theory that I can find, game theory is typically a course that appears in multiple degree programs - usually in Applied Mathematics and Science, or Economics programs.
None of those are Fine Arts Programs.
Just did a google search and found dozens of game design and theory degrees. Granted none of the results were for any Ivy league schools but they are out there and considered arts programs too.
Just did a google search and found dozens of game design and theory degrees. Granted none of the results were for any Ivy league schools but they are out there and considered arts programs too.
I've seen plenty of Game Design degrees, many colleges offer them and I even called that out in my post above.
Game Theory on the other hand is not the theory of game design, it is a course on mathematical modeling that is usually part and parcel of data science programs but is included in lots of Game Design degrees but does not seem to be a full curricula of its own, so I would love to see the link to the degree program you found.
Singing is an artistic performance, right? Even without a degree pop music, traditional music, singing in primary school or as a social act is still art. Maybe not great art, but very little painting is Michelangelo's either.
So yeah, I'd define RPGs as an art form. More so than a wargame or chess, certainly. There's an element of performance that those don't generally have.
There's an endpoint defined by random chance in games inherently lacking in singing in school.
So yeah, I'd define RPGs as an art form. More so than a wargame or chess, certainly. There's an element of performance that those don't generally have.
What makes it a distinct art form unto itself? It’s character work is very much an acting scene study, it’s performance is very much improvisational acting
Question about the Genesys RPG. How many sets of the dice do you need? I know that 1 set is the simple answer but for those who have used the system how many do you want for the best experience?
My group played two campaigns of almost two years in length each with each of us only having one set of the Star Was iteration of the dice.
Towards the end of the second campaign I bought a second set when we had a new player who had a bit of a cash flow issue, once they were able to get their own personal set - my second set has sat on my shelf ever since.
So one set per person works? Do you need to pool dice to resolve things or does one set cover all situations? For some reason I remember us running out of the dice and having to reroll which was a PITA with the symbols.