|
the one expires at the end of your turn
the other expires at the end of the day.
imo they are the same but with different duration, this is why i said you will see variance
But when it comes to mechanics like
- infused trait
- advanced alchemy vs quick alchemy
- daily preparationsIn my opinion would be strange to think they meant to perma stack an unlimited number of poisons ( just poisons and not any other alchemical item) avoiding the daily limits provided by the class.
that;s exactly why my reasoning is that neither should be considered "used" when just applied to a weapon, and only be considered "used" when afflicting a target.
hence why perpetual poisons (in my table) expire at the end of the turn even if they were applied to a weapon.
This doesn't make any rules consistent sense unless you're also ruling that Mutagenist and Chirurgeon perpetuals expire at the end of the turn you drink them... because being "used" is being activated for those, and the activation for the poison is identical to the activation for Mutagens/Antidote/Antiplague.
It would also make non-combat perpetual poisons completely useless - you can spike someone's drink with your perpetual arsenic, but they can never drink it before your turn ends so it would just dissipate
again, by your exact reasoning, poisons should last indefinately, since they are "used" and their "effects" already done by simply applying them into a blade.
sorry, i can't see that as true.
so definately going by the rule of "too good to be true" here (that's part of the raw) i see poisons being "used" when applied to a target, not merely when applied to a weapon.
applied to a weapon is merely the means to apply the poison, you haven't used it yet.
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Poisons do last indefinitely. Indefinite is just not permanent, so it expires at next daily prep.
And too good to be true? Please... it’s a weak poison on every hit. It still only does something a minimal % of the time (35-40%), and is mostly good for whatever debuff it gives (flat footed at level 11 or enfeebled at level 17). The damage is terrible by that level.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Poisons do last indefinitely. Indefinite is just not permanent, so it expires at next daily prep.
So if the alchemist dies, indefinite becomes permanent since daily prep never comes?
The odd thing is, reading through all this, I find myself really wanting to play a bomber alchemist. Probably a Charhide Goblin.Could be a lot of fun...
It is essentially Pathbuilder: Hard mode, which can be very appealing to a certain set of people who play Dark Souls and what not. That's not necessarily the experience I think should be front and center in the CRB, but I really want to play one myself.
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Poisons do last indefinitely. Indefinite is just not permanent, so it expires at next daily prep.So if the alchemist dies, indefinite becomes permanent since daily prep never comes?
Now that's what they call a PRO GAMER move.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The odd thing is, reading through all this, I find myself really wanting to play a bomber alchemist. Probably a Charhide Goblin.Could be a lot of fun...It is essentially Pathbuilder: Hard mode, which can be very appealing to a certain set of people who play Dark Souls and what not. That's not necessarily the experience I think should be front and center in the CRB, but I really want to play one myself.
Despite having literally 100+ characters on Pathbuilder2e, literally none of the are alchemists. Seriously. I've tried to build one, but I struggle really hard with the choices I have to make with my feats or to fit the concepts I was tried to realize. So far, I adapted them to Investigators and a Fighter with alchemist MC. It's quite sad.
Barbarians, Monks and Spellcasters (Oracles and Sorcerers are quite nice)? Those I have lots and lots and I'm always eager to play with them while I'm building.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Poisons do last indefinitely. Indefinite is just not permanent, so it expires at next daily prep.So if the alchemist dies, indefinite becomes permanent since daily prep never comes?
You know, there's a rule about this for spell durations regarding spellcaster death or incapacitation, but it's not in the general duration rules.
If a spell’s caster dies or is incapacitated during the spell’s duration, the spell remains in effect till its duration ends. You might need to keep track of the caster’s initiative after they stopped being able to act to monitor spell durations.
For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect. This is common for beneficial effects that target you or your allies. Detrimental effects often last “until the end of the target’s next turn” or “through” a number of their turns (such as “through the target’s next 3 turns”), which means that the effect’s duration decreases at the end of the creature’s turn, rather than the start.
Instead of lasting a fixed number of rounds, a duration might end only when certain conditions are met (or cease to be true). If so, the effects last until those conditions are met.
And this discussion is exactly why originally I said "expect table variation".
You could make that the tagline for PF2. ;P
|
|
...Can you point to me where it says that indefinitely is different than permanently?
Because to me that's the definition of trying to game the system.
Again, if you have the same two abilities but one lasts till the end of your turn and the other till the end of the day, and the same exact action makes one bypass the duration restriction, so does for the other.
And this discussion is exactly why originally I said "expect table variation".
I can't say if the majority will side with me, with you, or if it'll be an equal split, but I do know that not everyone will be running it the same way.
Can you point me to where it says they’re the same thing? I know they’re synonyms, but similar to “permanent” and “unlimited duration” on spells such as Feeblemind, they do imply different things mechanically.
The rules for the exact distinction for unlimited duration spells can be found here
The word “Indefinite” has no such distinction made, because it only appears on one feat - Eternal Elixir - but still the text of infused makes reference to “Permanent”, which implies the word “Permanent” must be used for it to last past daily prep... not any synonym such as Indefinite, Unlimited, etc. Once activated, the rules for injury poisons do not use the word “Permanent” and therefore it is not a permanent effect.
|
|
...Can you point to me where it says that indefinitely is different than permanently?
Because to me that's the definition of trying to game the system.
Again, if you have the same two abilities but one lasts till the end of your turn and the other till the end of the day, and the same exact action makes one bypass the duration restriction, so does for the other.
And this discussion is exactly why originally I said "expect table variation".
I can't say if the majority will side with me, with you, or if it'll be an equal split, but I do know that not everyone will be running it the same way.
Can you point me to where it says they’re the same thing? I know they’re synonyms, but similar to “permanent” and “unlimited duration” on spells such as Feeblemind, they do imply different things mechanically.
The rules for the exact distinction for unlimited duration spells can be found here
The word “Indefinite” has no such distinction made, because it only appears on one feat - Eternal Elixir - but still the text of infused makes reference to “Permanent”, which implies the word “Permanent” must be used for it to last past daily prep... not any synonym such as Indefinite, Unlimited, etc. Once activated, the rules for injury poisons do not use the word “Permanent” and therefore it is not a permanent effect.
If it's not a permanent effect, then how long does it lasts?
Because the rules of duration don't have a mention of a thing called "indefinite duration".
So, going by the explicit intent of the rule book, which is casual language, it's safe to assume that a synonym actually works like its synonym.
Plus, let's read the actual rules once more:
...
An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon or ammunition, and it affects the target of the first Strike made using the poisoned item. If that Strike is a success and
Ok, now lets look at the text of Activate.
You call forth the effect of an item by properly activating it. This is a special activity that takes a variable number of actions, as listed in the item’s stat block.
Some items can be activated as a reaction or free action. In this case, you Activate the Item as a reaction or free action (as appropriate) instead of as an activity. Such cases are noted in the item’s Activate entry in its stat block—for example, “Activate Reaction command.”
Long Activation Times Some items take minutes or hours to activate. The Activate an Item activity for these items includes a mix of the listed activation components, but it’s not necessary to break down which one you’re providing at a given time. You can’t use other actions or reactions while activating such an item, though at the GM’s discretion, you might be able to speak a few sentences. As with other activities that take a long time, these activations have the exploration trait, and you can’t activate them in an encounter. If combat breaks out while you’re activating one, your activation is disrupted (see the Disrupting Activations sidebar).
The poison being on the blade is the effect of the poison. This is RAW and explicit by the activation rules. As the item is now in effect, the infusion rules take over. It does not have a permanent duration (the duration is not indefinite, my apologies, but "until you succeed or critically fail on a strike" essentially, which is not permanent) so it expires at your next daily prep.
Now the real problem here is Quick Alchemy
You swiftly mix up a short-lived alchemical item to use at a moment's notice. You create a single alchemical item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that's in your formula book without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn.
What the heck does remain potent mean? It clearly doesn't reference activation at all, so that only leads to one of two conclusions using the above 2 rules.
1) All items made by quick alchemy, and their effects, expire at the end of your turn. Including elixirs and mutagens.
2) All items made by quick alchemy, and their effects, expire when their duration says they do, or at your next daily prep (unless they have a permanent effect) whichever comes first.
It can only be one of these two, because the Activation rules say the moment an item is activated (Which both poisons and elixirs are), it goes into the "effect" stage. Seeing as the first scenario is clearly nonsensical, as it would make mutagenist and chirurgeon perpetuals basically useless, as well as making non contact/injury poison perpetuals from toxicologist useless, I'm inclined to believe it's the second.
|
|
Pinpoint Poisoner would still work even under that interpretation
Unsuspecting targets are especially vulnerable to your poisons. When you successfully Strike a flat-footed creature with a poisoned weapon or expose a flat-footed creature to an inhaled poison, the flat-footed condition also gives that creature a –2 circumstance penalty to its initial save against that poison.
No, the effect of the poison as made clear by the activation rule is to poison your weapon. The weapon is now poisoned and applies it’s effect on a successful strike.
The rules also make clear that the mutagen is in the bottle, and the mutagen is inside your system giving you bonuses... yet no one is arguing that mutagen effects from quick alch expire at the end of your turn, and that would be the rules consistent outcome of applying the same interpretation to both.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
it's really simple imo and i fail to see it working differently
Yes, it is really simple. The duration rules take over when you Activate an Item, which is a specific thing you do with any usable item.
You Activate a mutagen when you drink it, and its effects begin immediately.
You Activate a poison when you apply it to a weapon, and its effects begin when you Strike a creature with the weapon.
'Changing where the poison is' isn't a concept recognized by the game - you Activate it, and put it on the weapon, or you don't, and it remains in item form until it expires per the Quick Alchemy rules.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
it's really simple imo and i fail to see it working differentlyYes, it is really simple. The duration rules take over when you Activate an Item, which is a specific thing you do with any usable item.
You Activate a mutagen when you drink it, and its effects begin immediately.
You Activate a poison when you apply it to a weapon, and its effects begin when you Strike a creature with the weapon.
'Changing where the poison is' isn't a concept recognized by the game - you Activate it, and put it on the weapon, or you don't, and it remains in item form until it expires per the Quick Alchemy rules.
Not when you activate an item.
When the item activates ( when the effect occurs ).Similar, but drastically different ( an elixir is activated when drinked, as a poison is activated when somebody takes its effects ).
Care to point out where the rules indicate there's a difference?
It's not in the poison exposure rules, which agree with the Activate an Item rules:
An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon or ammunition, and it affects the target of the first Strike made using the poisoned item.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again, where in the rules does it say that Activating a poison is different from Activating a mutagen? You are using the same activity to do both. Where, specifically, does it say that, despite the rules for Activating, it doesn't count until the poison affects a target?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, 3/4 of the Alchemist subclasses have perpetual alchemy that does nothing?
Because you still haven't pointed out where Activating a poison and Activating a mutagen or elixir have different rules, and those are also infused items made with Quick Alchemy. So obviously, those must expire at the end of the turn you created them, even if you've already Activated them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Chirurgeon's actions:1-Quick alchemy
2-Drink ( or let somebody else drink it )or
1-Quick alchemy
2-Stride
3-Let somebody else drink it
And then it expires immediately, because it only lasts one round even if you Activate it.
Mutagenist's Actions:
1-Quick alchemy
2-Drink ( or let somebody else drink it )or
1-Quick alchemy
2-Stride
3-Let somebody else drink it
And then it expires immediately, because it only lasts one round even if you Activate it.
Toxicologist's Actions:
1-Quick alchemy
2-Apply poison ( Requires 1 action instead of 2 ).
3-Strike
And then it expires immediately, because it only lasts one round even if you Activate it.
If we're running with the assumption that Activating an item doesn't override the Quick Alchemy rules (because you still haven't pointed out what changes this for mutagens and elixirs as opposed to poisons), none of these items can last for longer than it takes for Quick Alchemy to run out. Frankly poisons are best off with your interpretation, since they can at least trigger once against the target - good luck making use of your antiplague's item bonus against diseases.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nothing expires if consumed.
Okay, but why?
I'm fine with being wrong here. Frankly I shouldn't have commented to begin with, since I'm not actually that invested in the outcome. But you keep saying there's a difference here without pointing out where it says that.
My interpretation is, as far as I can tell, pretty supported. It says in multiple places that applying poison to a weapon is Activating the poison, in the same way that drinking a mutagen is Activating it. There is no mechanical difference between those two things - if the way you used a mutagen was to pour it on the floor and forget about it, that would still be Activating an Item. So, if one of them overrules the Quick Alchemy duration, the other should too.
I don't see anywhere where 'consumed' is a different state that would work any differently than using an Item in any other way.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nothing expires if consumed.Okay, but why?
I'm fine with being wrong here. Frankly I shouldn't have commented to begin with, since I'm not actually that invested in the outcome. But you keep saying there's a difference here without pointing out where it says that.
My interpretation is, as far as I can tell, pretty supported. It says in multiple places that applying poison to a weapon is Activating the poison, in the same way that drinking a mutagen is Activating it. There is no mechanical difference between those two things - if the way you used a mutagen was to pour it on the floor and forget about it, that would still be Activating an Item. So, if one of them overrules the Quick Alchemy duration, the other should too.
I don't see anywhere where 'consumed' is a different state that would work any differently than using an Item in any other way.
It's pretty clear that Quick Alchemy's clause of becoming inert after one round applies to the item created not its effects:
You created an alchemical item with the infused trait using your infused reagents, and it has a limited time before it becomes inert. Any nonpermanent effects from your infused alchemical items, with the exception of afflictions such as slow-acting poisons, end when you make your daily preparations again.
It can be found here: Infused Trait page.
You swiftly mix up a short-lived alchemical item to use at a moment's notice. You create a single alchemical item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that's in your formula book without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn.
The whole thing is talking about the item created with the action, not its effects. I think we can see that RAI implies the item becomes inert quite fast if you don't use it, not that its effects end once your turn ends, otherwise what's the point of using Quick Alchemy in anything but instant effect items, which excludes the majority of alchemical items?.
|
|
Just to be clear, if you’re saying poisons become inactive unless their affliction starts, then are you also saying that quick alchemy (including perpetual) ingested poisons are completely useless? As outside of Ready actions, or the Enduring Alchemy feat, there’d be no way for them to ingest the poison before it became inert by your interpretation?