| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
While my first impressions on the Gunslinger class are mostly positive, the guns themselves leave a bit to be desired.
Any ranged weapon with a Reload value greater than 0 is suffering from severe limitations on its use, and as such should be otherwise more powerful than other equivalent options to warrant its use.
Simple Firearms
Points of Reference:
Crossbow: d8 P, 120 feet, R1, B1, H2
Hand Crossbow: d6 P, 60 feet, R1, BL, H1
Flintlock Musket: 1d6 B/P, 40 feet, R1, B1, H2, fatal d10
Losing a die to gain fatal is on par with other weapon designs for damage. Having a third of the range of the crossbow is problematic, though.
Flintlock Pistol: 1d4 B/P, 20 feet, R1, BL, H1, fatal d8
Again, we're losing a die size to gain fatal, as well as dropping to a third of the range of the hand crossbow.
Hand Cannon: 1d4 modular, 10 feet, R1, B1, H1, fatal d8
We're taking the Flintlock pistol, which is already a bit underwhelming, and halving its range in exchange for access to slashing damage.
Suggested improvements: Early firearms have been historically notorious for such poor accuracy that only mass firing lines could be reliable for all but the most skilled of marksmen. As such, I propose we leave the low range as it is, and instead increase the base damage dice by a size (leaving fatal unchanged). This gives simple crossbows the edge in accuracy for medium and ranged combat, and firearms the edge in damage for close quarters.
The hand cannon is explicitly called out as a very primitive firearm, so bumping its damage up and removing the fatal property feels acceptable.
NEW Flintlock Musket: 1d8 B/P, 40 feet, R1, B1, H2, fatal d10
NEW Flintlock Pistol: 1d6 B/P, 20 feet, R1, BL, H1, fatal d8
NEW Hand Cannon: 1d8 modular, 10 feet, R1, B1, H1
Martial Firearms
Points of Reference
Longbow: 1d8 P, 100 feet, R0, B2, H1+, deadly d10, volley 30ft
Shortbow: 1d6 P, 60 feet, R0, B1, H1+, deadly d10,
Bola: 1d6 B, 20 feet, R1, Ranged Trip, Thrown
Arquebus 1d8 B/P, 80 feet, R1, B2, H2, fatal d12, sniper, unsteady
The damage is a little better on the crits (sniper is basically irrelevant), but unlike volley, whereupon the first move action should be enough to offset the penalty, unsteady requires a continuous input of actions to aim. Coupled with a reload cost, and this is a severe downgrade from the longbow.
Blunderbuss d8 B/P, 15 feet, R1, B2, H2, scatter
We're up on damage from the shortbow (but lack of deadly offsets that), but we have a quarter of the range in exchange for a little splash damage. And we also have a reload requirement. With the exception of fighting swarms, this is an awful choice of weapon.
Dueling Pistol 1d6 B/P, 30 feet, R1, BL, H1, concealable, fatal d10
Better range and better crit damage than the bola. Slightly better crit damage than the shortbow, but at the cost of half the range and a reload requirement.
Suggested improvements:
NEW Arquebus 1d10 B/P, 80 feet, R1, B2, H2, fatal d12, sniper, unsteady
We'll keep the niche of this being the dedicated sniper's/assassin's tool, and accept that in exchange for the heavy action cost of both reloading and stabilizing, we can probably go up to a d10 base.
NEW Blunderbuss d10 B/P, 15 feet, R1, B2, H2, scatter
I think that making the blunderbuss more attractive as a serious weapon requires us to look at the scatter trait. Increasing the splash damage to 2 per weapon die helps a bit. Increasing the die size (it's almost a melee weapon at this point, and doesn't get a crit bonus) is also appropriate.
NEW Dueling Pistol 1d6 B/P, 40 feet, R1, BL, H1, concealable, fatal d10
The dueling pistol feels pretty good so far- respectable damage, no downsides, can be dual-wielded- it just wants a bit more range for that proper deadeye feel.
Now, there's still a few niches worth exploring.
NEW Carbine Musket: Martial, 1d8 B/P, 60 feet, R1, B1, H2, fatal d12
The lack of a proper midrange martial weapon is a problem. I propose this (historically, a shorter and lighter version of the arquebus). It fits into the same niche as the shortbow (60 foot range, no penalties), but get a bunch more damage in exchange for Reload 1 and being uncommon.
Advanced Firearms
I think it's reasonable to assume that advanced firearms are probably going to have an equivalent to Reload 0 through the application of a magazine that condenses the reload actions into a block.
Advanced firearms have the Capacity Weapon Trait. They can be loaded with a number of rounds equal to the value of the capacity trait (requiring a number of actions equal to the first reload value). While they still have rounds in them, they use the second reload value.
Chamber capacity works the same way, but you can also reload rounds one at a time with an interact action.
NEW Bolt Action Rifle: Advanced, 1d10 B/P, 100 feet, R3/0, B2, H2, capacity 4, Fatal d12, sniper, unsteady
The superior option for snipers and assassins- we still have unsteady and the same damage as the arquebus, but a slightly longer range and the ability to condense reload actions with Capacity.
NEW Repeater Carbine: Advanced, 1d8 B/P, 60 feet, R3/0, B1, H2, capacity 4, fatal d12.
Compared to the Bolt Action Rifle, we've got worse range and base damage, but don't need to keep aiming. Compared to the shortbow, we've got a higher base and crit damage, but need to take a turn off every few rounds to reload fully.
NEW Revolver Pistol 1d6 B/P, 40 feet, R3/0, BL, H1, chamber capacity 6, concealable, fatal d10
Statwise, it's the Dueling Pistol but with 6 rounds loaded up at once. Compared to the shortbow, we have less range and bigger crits, but need to take a turn off every few rounds to reload fully.
NEW Shotgun Advanced, d12 B/P, 20 feet, R2/0, B2, H2, chamber capacity 2, scatter
Two barrels, twice the fun. Otherwise just a damage and slight range upgrade from the blunderbuss.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Crossbows as a baseline seems like a bad idea to me given that they're generally considered a suboptimal choice to begin with. Generally, besides the very first shot of combat and some cheat feats that have their own downsides, each attack you take with a firearm/crossbow requires you to spend an action to reload.
Given that the role of a Gunslinger is to deal damage, to an even greater degree than Fighter given their lessened ability to debuff the enemy with combat maneuvers and their lower health/armour proficiency, it seems like a bad idea to restrict their actions like this without giving some considerable advantages to the lower number of shots they do get to make.
The only change I see needed now is arquebus needing a stabilize (skipping the tripod because stabilizing could be done fluffwise so many ways, just include the cost in the gun), aka stabilize once, keep stabile til you move.
Would it kill if you gave the arquebus deadly d4 with the fatal trait?
Could the martial firearms gain something similar to propulsive but for dex? (Pf1 tradition)
maybe increase the sniper to deal 1d4 against targets you are undetected to?
Dislike any flat damage increase and if anything.
I also hope to see a martial crossbow drop.
Why not just use backstabber trait instead of sniper? (This would make assassins able to bump the low damage boost it would give)
I'd rather see more traits on some guns rather than pure base damage increase.
Will say it again, as I posted on another thread, a new trait using the optimal damage type rather than versatile, maybe call it optimal B/P/S, that could work with other weapons too
Just want to give my 2 cent on your analysis.
Completely agree on the arquebus. Definitely needs a higher base damage die.
Blunderbluss scatter damage applies on the main target too, bumping the average damage in 1 dice size. Current iteration of the blunderbluss deal the same damage as a d10 ranged weapon. I like your idea of doubling the damage of the scatter trait, but for that the weapon should stay as a d8 weapon definitely.
1 handed firearms should not be compared to the bola IMO. Bola's main appeal is the ranged trip trait, not its functionality as a weapon. 1 handed simple firearm should be compared to hand crossbows and 1 handed martial weapons should be compared to shurikens. When comparing the dueling pistol to a shuriken I think it is pretty clear that the weapon is still lacking. Not as much as the arquebus compared with the composite longbow but still lacking nevertheless.
I find simple firearms to be ok as they are right now due to firearm ace.
I did forget about Firearm Ace and that affecting simple weapons.
Keeping the flintlock musket at a d6 (which would climb to a d8) and the flintlock pistol at a d4 is something that I'm not too worried about. If that was the case, I'd like to see them buffed a little in some other way- maybe raising the musket to 50 feet and the pistol to 30 feet to make them a bit less awful would do the trick.
Likewise, putting the hand cannon as a d6 (no fatal) and increasing its range to 15 feet should be fair.
I did misread Scatter before. Keeping the blunderbuss as a d8 and making scatter deal twice weapon dice in splash (effectively making it a d12 weapon with 15 foot reach, no STR to damage, and Reload 1) is probably fine. It'd certainly help it feel different to other firearms- instead of an elegant weapon used for precision shots, here's this vicious boomstick used for emptying a whole room at once at point blank.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Another few possibilities I've completely overlooked...
Given that a lot of the class encourages dual-wielding and therefore making a bunch of attacks, having an agile firearm is a distinct possibility. I was thinking the dueling pistol was very close to being good enough, and only needed a small buff. Given that it'll be the weapon of choice for dual-wielding gunslingers, and is associated with making accurate attacks rapidly, agile seems appropriate.
Dueling Pistol: 1d6 B/P, 30 feet, R1, BL, H1, concealable, fatal d10
Would become...
NEW Dueling Pistol: 1d6 B/P, 30 feet, R1, BL, H1, agile, concealable, fatal d10
Likewise, other posters have pointed out that the Drifter's melee and guns approach, instead of being dual-wielding focused, could instead have its wording tweaked to simply designate making melee and ranged attacks, thus enabling blast-and-bayonet or blast-and-bludgeon sequences.
NEW Bayonet: Simple, 1d4 P, -, -, Attached to 2-handed firearm, Finesse.
NEW Reinforced Stock: Simple, 1d6 B, -, -, Attached to 2-handed firearm.
NEW Reinforced Handle: Simple, 1d4 B, -, -, Agile, Attached to 1-handed firearm, Finesse.
The bayonet would be in the knife group, and the reinforced handle and stock in the club group. Finesse as a trait feels necessary to make this work on a class that doesn't want to have to invest heavily in Strength.
This enables one to use a more powerful firearm alongside a weaker melee attack, and gives a little more strength for the Drifter's playstyle (which given that it requires using melee weapons with a lower proficiency and ranged weapons at close range, could use the support).
And also because the idea of charging in, blasting foes with a blunderbuss, and stabbing the survivors is wonderfully evocative.
Of course, we'd still want to give the sword-and-shot players some love, which comes in the form of the Blade-Slinger Stance (it's a dumb name; you'll think of a better one).
NEW Blade-Slinger Stance [A] Feat 2
Gunslinger, Stance
Requirements: You are wielding a one-handed melee weapon and a one-handed crossbow or firearm, one in each hand
You enter a guarded stance, keeping your blade before you to protect your gun. While in this stance, you can reload your ranged weapon while you don't have a free hand, and reloading doesn't trigger reactions that would normally be triggered by manipulate actions.
NEW Blade-Slinger Parry Feat 10
Gunslinger
Prerequisite: Blade-Slinger Stance
While in Blade-Slinger Stance, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your AC, or a +2 if the melee weapon you wield has the parry trait.
NEW Blade-Slinger Guard Feat 6
Gunslinger, Stance
Ranged attacks you make while in Blade-Slinger Stance don't trigger reactions from enemies.
Because not provoking AoOs while reloading doesn't mean much if you're still provoking them by making ranged attacks.
NEW Blast and Bludgeon (2 actions) Feat 6
Gunslinger, Flourish
Requirement: You are wielding a firearm with an attached bayonet or reinforced stock
You get in close, using the noise and flash of your gun to create openings to beat down foes. Make a ranged strike with your firearm against a target within your weapon's reach, and then a melee strike with a bayonet or reinforced stock. You don't apply your multiple attack penalty until after both attacks have been made.
Here's a pitch for y'all to shoot down. What if (all or just some) guns had 1dx+1 damage instead of just 1dx, becoming 2dx+2 with a striking rune and so on. Comparable to a Propulsive, gives a higher minimum and maximum as well as reducing swinginess, and makes Firearm Ace feel less necessary. Obviously the rest of the traits should be adjusted accordingly, but yeah.
I'm not totally against it. Also I'd word it "A weapon with this trait deals an additional point of damage per damage die." Honestly though it would be easier and more consistent with current weapons to just increase the damage die by 1 step. It works out to the same on average (1d4+1 averages to 3.5, as does 1d6).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Could the martial firearms gain something similar to propulsive but for dex? (Pf1 tradition)That sounds like a great idea tbh.
Absolutely won't happen. Paizo has decided anything to damage except Strength threatens to be toxic to the system, even though it's present on a Rogue racket.
...What's that? Inventors get Int to damage in addition to Strength? Wouldn't that let them dump Strength if they're using a Dex weapon anyway? Almost as though dumping Strength isn't a problem in this system like it was in PF1?
Facetiousness aside, I've asked about things like a level 3 general feat for Dex to Damage before and been roundly called min-maxing garbage (even though I'm one of those eternal GMs who just wants the system to function when I present it to my players). Paizo is apparently traumatized from PF1 when classes would dump Str, go Dex-based, and then make use of a class feature adding level to damage to not care anyway, because then everyone would blame the dex-based part of that and not... I dunno, the level to damage.
Sorry, side rant. To bring it back to topic, no, Paizo won't do dex to damage with firearms. It actually would cause people to question propulsive, which is a whole other analytical can of worms.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why add DEX to damage with some firearms? That sounds like a strange stat to add. Though I'll be honest and admit I have no love for using DEX as the accuracy stat for bow/crossbow/gun attacks anyways.
Why not give some firearms a quasi-propulsive based off half of WIS? Give some connection between being eagle-eyed and being extra accurate due to that kind of precision.
The game avoids DEX to damage because tying your entire offense and defense to the same stat is largely cheesy. STR as the inherent damage stat in PF2 is one of my favorite upgrades in the entire system.
Anyways. I think it would be neat to see firearms carve out a bit bigger of a niche with not just super-martials but martials with some positive mental stats as well. But that's just my weird opinion.
Yeah, but also for neatness maybe it should be printed "1d6+1" in the table so people don't miss it if they don't read the trait.
As for increasing the die size, sure but that doesn't solve swinginess. During a quick playtest game I rolled a crit and still managed to do negligible damage, and it felt pretty damn bad. The exact same thing could happen with a crossbow, but that could be a way of differentiating guns and crossbows.
Well, swinginess isn't exactly something the system is trying to solve. It is very much intended.
I get what you mean, and by all means advocate for what you want, but I don't think there will be much traction, as it would complicate the system they have set up in ways they do not want and go directly against decisions they have made.
Edit: As far as your proposed +1 goes, an easy way to make it hard to miss would be to format the trait as, idk, Fierce +1, so that the +1 shows up in the entry somewhere, but not on the damage die where it might mess up other stuff.
I think this would be a mistake. The difference would be minimal compared to just increasing the damage die (same average but of course less variance), plus it could cause confusion when combined with other sources of damage. For example, let's say you have a base damage die of 1d6+1, a striking rune, and weapon specialization for +3. This gives you a damage of 2d6+5. Let's then say you're using an ability similar to Certain Strike (on a miss, deal damage without any damage dice). Would you then deal 5 points or 3 points? And is that distinction worth worrying about?Here's a pitch for y'all to shoot down. What if (all or just some) guns had 1dx+1 damage instead of just 1dx, becoming 2dx+2 with a striking rune and so on. Comparable to a Propulsive, gives a higher minimum and maximum as well as reducing swinginess, and makes Firearm Ace feel less necessary. Obviously the rest of the traits should be adjusted accordingly, but yeah.
I was going to edit this into my previous post, but you gave a good jumping off point.
I'm coming around to liking this idea. Or, at least, my version of the idea (a trait instead of just an untyped bonus to the damage table). It could be a way to unify various abilities that give a +1 or +2 per damage die. Like instead of "Any hit with this sword deals 1 extra fire damage per damage die" it can be "weapon gains Fierce +1 (fire)". Which would be a way to figure out exactly how all these bonuses interact with each other and with weapon specialization (for instance, the trait could allow you the choice to have specialization increase your Fierce damage instead of your weapon's damage, if different). I don't think there's a big confusion at the moment, but as you say there might be somewhere down the line.
Edit: this would also solve the problem they had about natively splitting damage types. Instead of versatile, or a version of versatile where the weapon automatically deals whichever is advantageous, you simply give the weapon Fierce +1 (b) instead of versatile b.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why add DEX to damage with some firearms? That sounds like a strange stat to add. Though I'll be honest and admit I have no love for using DEX as the accuracy stat for bow/crossbow/gun attacks anyways.I'm also not a big fan of Dex to damage in general. The general idea seems to be that you deal damage by being precise instead of hitting brutishly hard.
I can see that argument in itself, but I do not think it follows that Dex should be added to damage. Precision is skill, not Dex, and I think that's reflected in more precise weapons having the Deadly and possibly Fatal traits. In theory I could also see a trait giving an expanded crit range, but in practice that would be too much of a bother (critting on +10 has the virtue of being super easy to calculate).
I think you and I are on the same page regarding DEX.
I too wondered if giving firearms a free Keen might work, but frankly that just improves them more for non-gunslingers than it does for gunslingers, and that's not the goal.
Why not give some firearms a quasi-propulsive based off half of WIS? Give some connection between being eagle-eyed and being extra accurate due to that kind of precision.
I remember when Dark heresy tried to add perceptionmodifier to the penetration of sniper rifles, so adding wis is not stupid and wisdom was the 2nd key score in pf1.
Adding half wis to damage could actually be part of the new sniper rule.
Then somehow, clerics and druids becomes wierdly good snipers...
I only mentioned dex to damage cuz rogues got it and gunslingers were the only one to get it on ranged weapons in pf1. I agree though that it should be avoided and that thief racket should limit it to light bulk finesse weapons but that is for another discussion.
There is no "easy way" to solve this
I think the big difference is that a bow is going to leave a bigger hole than a bullet, but a bullet is going to hit where it hits harder.
I think it works well that guns are crit-fishing weapons, since "shooting someone in the eye" is going to be a lot more deadly (fatal even) than "shooting someone in the butt".
If a gunslinger's damage is low, then the solution is most likely "Give the class some damage fixers" (like the precision ranger edge, the swashbuckler's precise strike, the barbarian's bonus damage from rage, etc.) rather than fundamentally changing how guns work.
People who aren't gunslingers shouldn't be falling all over themselves in order to get their hands on guns. "I don't need no newfangled powder weapons, I can rely on my trusty [whatever]" should be a valid perspective for everybody else.
I think the big difference is that a bow is going to leave a bigger hole than a bullet, but a bullet is going to hit where it hits harder.
I think it works well that guns are crit-fishing weapons, since "shooting someone in the eye" is going to be a lot more deadly (fatal even) than "shooting someone in the butt".
If a gunslinger's damage is low, then the solution is most likely "Give the class some damage fixers" (like the precision ranger edge, the swashbuckler's precise strike, the barbarian's bonus damage from rage, etc.) rather than fundamentally changing how guns work.
People who aren't gunslingers shouldn't be falling all over themselves in order to get their hands on guns. "I don't need no newfangled powder weapons, I can rely on my trusty [whatever]" should be a valid perspective for everybody else.
even unchanged, the dueling pistol will be the most damage dealing non-thrown one handed ranged martial weapon for other classes to use, and then can do massive damage on crits. If anything it is the compsite bows being abit overtuned. Guns only need a better variant of versatile (guns can't choose the way a bullet acts) to deal the most optimal damage
I don't think guns as presented need a huge buff in damage to be competitive. Just a nudge here and there. Finding a way to add a few points of flat damage at early levels would be a really big boon that still wouldn't turn them into must-pick weapons. Especially if you have no way to easily handle the reload or ammunition supply.
If we do add some flat damage to guns, it should be precision damage to solve the previously mentioned "shooting a skeleton with a gun shouldn't really be more effective than bashing it with a mace even though both are bludgeoning" issue.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
even unchanged, the dueling pistol will be the most damage dealing non-thrown one handed ranged martial weapon for other classes to use, and then can do massive damage on crits.
That is correct, but it is also the only weapon that fits all of those qualifiers. So, yes, it deals the most damage of that grouping. It also deals the least.
How would the ability to punch through a point or two of Physical Damage resistance and hardness per weapon die fair as a way to boost damage?
It makes sense to me as it helps firearms deal with things like shields and heavily armoured enemies in a way that real firearms did.
Don't know how frequently this trait come in to play though, I just like the idea of an armour shredding niche.