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Hi All,
I have been fortunate to be invited to play in a Campaign with Pathfinder Author Greg Vaughn, who has killed so many of us in his award winning AP Contributions. Greg is a lovely fellow in real life, but loves to kill characters at conventions to humble we who think we know every trick in the book.
We start the Aegis of Empires Campaign this weekend and I need help with a Swashbuckler build. Go for broke. Anything in a Paizo rulebook is allowed.
Please feel free to add other Class Levels in the build and suggest archtypes, traits & feats.
I was going to Level dip in Paladin for Saves and Smite but Greg said thats the one class he can't see me play (he's right), advice for level dip and when they occur would be great.
I am on of the two Martial Classes and there is no real tank.
Here is what I have so far:
Race: Aasimar, Azata Blooded
Class: Swashbuckler 1
Rolled Stats 4d6 take best 3
ST: 11
DEX: 17 + 2 = 19
CON: 15
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA: 14 + 2 = 16
Once per day: Glitterdust
Starting Gold: 170 GP
Possible Feats: Steadfast Personality (??)
Going with a Scimitar (Saber) as the primary weapon
Happy Holidays, Cheers and thank you.
Going with a Scimitar (Saber) as the primary weapon
Hm. You won't be able to apply Swashbuckler's Finesse to that since it isn't a piercing weapon, at least not without Slashing Grace. So it might be an idea to start out with a Rapier until you can apply your dex to attack with scimitars, or use the Whirling Dervish archetype if you can worship Sarenrae.
Please feel free to add other Class Levels in the build and suggest archtypes, traits & feats.
Rich Parents for a +730 GP boost to your starting wealth (Chosen Child is region-locked). Since you're actually starting out at level 1 you'll have to do what you can to survive. This might include buying a Wand of CLW if you have someone in your party that can use it without UMD.
And before I start seeing what sticks, what character choices aren't changeable? Race, ability scores, main class, weapon choice.
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Going with a Scimitar (Saber) as the primary weaponHm. You won't be able to apply Swashbuckler's Finesse to that since it isn't a piercing weapon, at least not without Slashing Grace. So it might be an idea to start out with a Rapier until you can apply your dex to attack with scimitars, or use the Whirling Dervish archetype if you can worship Sarenrae.
Please feel free to add other Class Levels in the build and suggest archtypes, traits & feats.Rich Parents for a +730 GP boost to your starting wealth (Chosen Child is region-locked). Since you're actually starting out at level 1 you'll have to do what you can to survive. This might include buying a Wand of CLW if you have someone in your party that can use it without UMD.
And before I start seeing what sticks, what character choices aren't changeable? Race, ability scores, main class, weapon choice.
Merry Christmas and thanks for all the help so far, it is appreciated!!!!!
Race is locked to Aasimar, Stats can be moved around, Slashing Grace will be swaped out for Swashbuckler Finesse, it’s a fair and DM approved trade.
The Extra GP early on for Trait never appealed to me alas, I would rather use the Traits for more long term Campaign boosts.
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Merry Christmas!
If you want a very standard Swash build then here's a proposed feat path. I also recommend you to take the Scion of Humanity ART so you qualify for the +1/4 Panache FCB.
1 Fortified Armor Training
3 Combat Reflexes
4 Weapon Trick: One-Handed (B), +1 Panache
Silksworn Occultist 1
5 Skill Focus, Transmutation Implement, 4 Mental Focus
Swashbuckler 5-8
7 Eldritch Heritage (Arcane-Familiar)
9 Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace (B), +1 Panache
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I don't know how long your campaign will last but this will give you a solid base.
Fortified Armor Training is your one defense against what kills most low-level adventurers. Critical hits. As you seem to know what other classes people are playing I'm banking on that someone will know the Mending cantrip so that they can repair your broken buckler (starting at level 3 if you choose to be a small Aasimar).
Weapon Trick: One-Handed grants you access to Stylish Riposte. The first time every enemy misses you by 5 or more they provoke an AoO. Since you naturally gravitate to a High-AC build this will be valuable.
Eldritch Heritage (Arcane-Familiar). It's a great boost to your defenses when you take the Protector archetype. If you keep the Familiar hidden on your person it will boost your effective HP by +50% by sharing the incoming damage. This is increases to +100% effective HP at character level 13.
The level in Silksworn may be a bit complicated. But it will improve your Fort/Will saves, grant you a +2 Enhancement bonus to a physical stat, and the Legacy Weapon base focus power will allow you to apply any +1 weapon property to your (or an ally's) weapon as a standard action. So mostly Bane for the +2 Enhancement bonus and +2d6 damage.
Slashing Grace comes in a bit late (lv 9) so if you can afford a +1 Agile weapon by then you could take something more exciting.
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Something very important is that you take the Hilt Hammer Deed of Renown at level 3. This prevents you from losing all of your Precise Strike damage whenever you encounter something immune to precise damage or in concealment.
Precise strikes with a slender blade do little to hinder amorphous or incorporeal creatures; when encountering such threats, some swashbucklers abandon precision in favor of brutish strikes. At 3rd level, the swashbuckler can activate this deed before rolling the attack roll when making an attack that would benefit from precise strike. An attack altered this way deals only half the normal damage from precise strike, but this damage is not treated as precision damage. This deed alters (but does not replace) the precise strike deed and replaces one other 3rd-level deed.
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Slashing Grace will be swaped out for Swashbuckler Finesse, it’s a fair and DM approved trade.
I took this to mean that your GM allows you to use your Scimitar with Swashbuckler's Finesse and other swash class features (even without Slashing Grace). If this wasn't the case then my previous feat path won't work. But either way I just remembered that Dervish Dance is a thing that exists. Which is effectively Slashing Grace but without the annoying Weapon Focus feat tax.
1 Fortified Armor Training
3 Dervish Dance
4 Combat Reflexes (B), +1 Panache
Silksworn Occultist 1
5 Skill Focus (Know), Transmutation Implement, 5 Mental Focus*
Swashbuckler 5-8
7 Eldritch Heritage (Arcane-Familiar)
9 +1 Feat, Weapon Trick: One-Handed (B), +1 Panache
*I forgot to include the one point you gain from the class level, so it should be 5 and not 4 as previously written.
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Starting at level 9 there's a few feats you could pursue, depending on when you think the game will end.
Iron Will/Great Fortitude - Your familiar will give you a Will or Fort boost, so improve the one in need here.
Lunge combined with a Swordmaster's Flair allows you to full-attack anyone within 15 ft at the start of your turn without a 5-ft step. There's also some full-attack denial you can do with your on-turn 15 ft reach.
Possessed Hand. It's an easy +1/+1 to Attack/Damage, which can be built into Hand's Autonomy to save you from being Paralyzed/Stunned by force-feeding you a potion of Placebo Effect.
Critical Focus and Signature Deed are two common Swash feats.
Deific Obedience (and Diverse Obedience) becomes real powerful at higher levels.
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Here is an npc from my current Campaign for inspiration:
Nicolás de la Vega 5.lev. Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/1 Scaled Fist Monk, male Human.
Str: 8 (-2) Dex: 18 (10) Con: 12 (2) Int: 14 (5) Wis: 8 (-2) Cha 16 (7)
HP: 49
AC: 10+armor+buckler+dex+cha+nimble+dodge= 10+5+2+4+3+1+1= 26
Fort:2+1+2= +5 Refl:2+4+4= +10 Will:2+1+2= +5
Panarch point: Cha +Int. =5 Regain on critical hits
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon focus Rapier, Combat Reflexes (Human), Fencing Grace (1st lev),
Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk), Deflect Arrows (Monk), Iron Will (3rd lev), Dodge (4th lev), Stylish
Ripost (5th lev), Improved Crit. Rapier (Weapon training)
Deeds: Opportune Parry and Riposte, Precise Strike (+5 precise dm.)
Weapon Training: +1 to hit +2 to dm.
Nimble: +1 dodge bonus to AC
To Hit: +5 BAB +1 weapon focus +1 weapon training +4 dex +1 enchantment = +12 15-20/x2
Dm: 1d6+4 dex+2 weapon training +1 enchantment +5 precise strike = 1d6+12 / Crit: 2d6+19
Charmed Life: 3/day Cha bonus to saves as immediate action
Equipment: +1 chainshirt, +1 buckler, +1 Rapier
Skills (5x7) The swashbuckler’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex) +12, Bluff (Cha) +11, Climb (Str), Craft (Int),
Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int) +1, Knowledge (nobility) (Int),
Perception (Wis) +7, Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis) Sailor + 7, Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis)+ 7, Sleight of Hand
(Dex) +12, and Swim (Str).
Stylish Riposte (Weapon trick Feat): When your AC exceeds the result of a foe’s melee attack against you
by 5 or more, that foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Once you make such an attack of
opportunity against a foe, you can’t again use this trick against the foe that day.
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You are going to have to look at what your other party members can do as well.
In PFS, my swashbuckler has a bard dip for story reasons but it actually helps out a lot to make them be that all-rounder that you always need in Pathfinder Society play.
Some thoughts from my swashbuckler experience:
I have rarely needed combat reflexes. You can only parry&riposte once per round (because the riposte is a swift action) and as you will probably be high AC/low panache the parry on its own is a waste.
At higher levels then combat reflexes combined with stylish riposte and the blue-scarf swashbuckler's flair can give you some decent battlefield control and ways to turn attack into defence. Stylish riposte and parry/riposte are a funny combination though because you have to declare that you are parrying before your opponent rolls their attack. If your foe misses your AC by 5, you've a good chance of parrying it, making stylish riposte redundant. It's only useful when foes have multiple attacks (you might parry&riposte the first attack, then stylish riposte lets you respond to a miss with a low-bonus iterative attack).
Lunge is not very useful because it does not contribute any battlefield control (it only functions while you attack) and it lowers your AC. You are a swashbuckler so your acrobatics should be magnificent and you can just use that (with a bonus d6) to get close to foes.
The Swashbuckler's flair is much more useful as it allows all the sweet bonuses of reach without any negatives. 15ft reach is unnecessary.
Extra panache is a feat you might take once but not more than that. I'm not sure the extra panache favoured class bonus is worth losing hit points (you'll lose 4 hit points for one more panache and you're a front-line fighter) when you can buy feathers that you put in your hat which give you extra panache. Also, once you get improved-crit you will be getting panache back with 25% of your attacks. Critical Focus is a more useful feat (confirmed crits are great).
Not taking weapon focus is not really useful for swashbucklers. You want to take it anyway because you want to get weapon specialisation. Dervish Dance is more of skill-point-tax when you could just use slashing grace.
Swashbucklers' problem is usually that they are putting all of their eggs into one basket: one type of weapon. That makes weapon versatility (again, requires weapon focus) great for you. Now you can do piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage.
Hilt Hammer can cover another weakness and you can get three blades (silver, cold-iron, adamantine) plus a swarmbane clasp. At that point your killer GM cannot easily take you out of the fight.
The other thing you'll probably want eventually is the sharding property on a weapon (essentially, lets you make a full attack with all of your melee bonuses but at range. The increment is not great but it's better than almost any other option because of your focus on a single weapon).
For traits, I would suggest one that reduces armor check penalties and another that boosts your will save.
Also, for neat gear, a knight-inheritor's ring lets you cast bless weapon once a day. Being good-aligned is handy in some battles against outsiders but the real benefit for a high crit range character is that you automatically confirm all crits against evil characters.
A front-liner is meant to do damage and you can't take piranha strike so it might be a good idea to get your strength up to 13 (if your stats are set in stone then that could be a belt) so that you can take power-attack.
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Lunge
The Swashbuckler's flair is much more useful as it allows all the sweet bonuses of reach without any negatives. 15ft reach is unnecessary.
I was throwing things to see what sticks, but there is a big advantage to having 15ft reach on your turn. If you approach an enemy (5-ft step, move action, charge, whatevs) and attack them with 10 ft reach, then on their turn, they can simply 5-foot step and full-attack you.
If you used Lunge then you'd end your turn in a position where they have to spend movement to approach you, provoking AoOs from your 10 ft reach. It's the difference between having reach and superior reach.
I'm not sure the extra panache favoured class bonus is worth losing hit points (you'll lose 4 hit points for one more panache and you're a front-line fighter) when you can buy feathers that you put in your hat which give you extra panache.
It's a waste of FCB to pick up the HP or Skill Ranks.
Taking the extra Hit Point each level will give you 20 HP in total. Toughness, which is a single feat, grants you 20 HP in total.
If you had taken the extra Panache each level you'd end up with +5 Panache. Which is equivalent to taking the Extra Panache feat 2.5 times.
And while the Plume of Panache hoarding is a good tactic, you do want a good maximum value on your Pool of Panache so that it can last in combat during emergencies (like when you try to parry three touch attacks and a grapple in the same round).
Not taking weapon focus is not really useful for swashbucklers. You want to take it anyway because you want to get weapon specialisation. Dervish Dance is more of skill-point-tax when you could just use slashing grace.
Why would you want Weapon Specialization. The whole selling point of the Swashbuckler class is that you're already getting a big boost to your damage. It's like a Cleric taking Iron Will. Marginally useful but you should have invested those resources in something you needed, not something you already had.
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As the very first responder said, the Whirling Dervish archetype is really good. You get that automatic Dex-to-damage and precise strike with a scimitar. I GMed one through several levels (10-15) and he was very deadly, particularly when facing multiple enemies. He used Lunge mainly to shorten the amount of movement he had to take to reach everyone while doing a Whirlwind Dance (which he made his Signature Deed at 11th level). He took a bunch of critical feats as well. With about a 15% chance to crit, he applied a ton of status effects.
The only thing that truly threatened him was will saves, and that’s a problem for any swashbuckler. I really recommend Iron Will and any other way of raising your saves.
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Thank you very much Wonderstell (for going above and beyond), *Khan*, GeraintElberion, & Belafon.
Happy Holidays !!
Going to read these and look over, I'm sure I will have questions.
GeraintElberion, that's still you right? I've been reading your posts since Dragon Magazine and Dungeon Mag days.
Happy to see fellow grognards still here.
You are going to have to look at what your other party members can do as well.
In PFS, my swashbuckler has a bard dip for story reasons but it actually helps out a lot to make them be that all-rounder that you always need in Pathfinder Society play.
HAIL GeraintElberion !
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In PFS, my swashbuckler has a bard dip for story reasons but it actually helps out a lot to make them be that all-rounder that you always need in Pathfinder Society play.
I helped with PFS for many years, was the Bard level for Social encounters?
At higher levels then combat reflexes combined with stylish riposte and the blue-scarf swashbuckler's flair
Sorry, you lost me on your short hand there, blue-scarf flair?
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Merry Christmas!
If you want a very standard Swash build then here's a proposed feat path. I also recommend you to take the Scion of Humanity ART so you qualify for the +1/4 Panache FCB.
Does not have to be Standard at all, was looking for help with Level dips (partially for Class Features and Saves), Archtypes and Feats.
Wanted to do a level of Paladin but Greg Vaughn said he can not see me play a Paladin. Not yet done reading your posts I have to check the rules you mention as I go.
Swashbuckler's flair are items. Worth looking up on Archives of Nethys.
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Hilt Hammer
A front-liner is meant to do damage and you can't take piranha strike
My God even with Google it took me the better part of an hour to find out what that damned Hilt Hammer does. I've been gaming since 1980 and game slang and dice speak still slips by.
And why can't I take Piranha strike?
That seems very much part of the build.
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In PFS, my swashbuckler has a bard dip for story reasons but it actually helps out a lot to make them be that all-rounder that you always need in Pathfinder Society play.
I helped with PFS for many years, was the Bard level for Social encounters?
It was not really that practical. I wanted her to have had an elite education so bardic knowledge, a smattering of spells and versatile performance all helped to give her the right character vibe.
Expeditious retreat cast on a high acrobatics character allowed for some ridiculous jumping at low levels as well.|
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Lunge
The Swashbuckler's flair is much more useful as it allows all the sweet bonuses of reach without any negatives. 15ft reach is unnecessary.I was throwing things to see what sticks, but there is a big advantage to having 15ft reach on your turn. If you approach an enemy (5-ft step, move action, charge, whatevs) and attack them with 10 ft reach, then on their turn, they can simply 5-foot step and full-attack you.
If you used Lunge then you'd end your turn in a position where they have to spend movement to approach you, provoking AoOs from your 10 ft reach. It's the difference between having reach and superior reach.
I'm not sure the extra panache favoured class bonus is worth losing hit points (you'll lose 4 hit points for one more panache and you're a front-line fighter) when you can buy feathers that you put in your hat which give you extra panache.It's a waste of FCB to pick up the HP or Skill Ranks.
Taking the extra Hit Point each level will give you 20 HP in total. Toughness, which is a single feat, grants you 20 HP in total.
If you had taken the extra Panache each level you'd end up with +5 Panache. Which is equivalent to taking the Extra Panache feat 2.5 times.And while the Plume of Panache hoarding is a good tactic, you do want a good maximum value on your Pool of Panache so that it can last in combat during emergencies (like when you try to parry three touch attacks and a grapple in the same round).
Not taking weapon focus is not really useful for swashbucklers. You want to take it anyway because you want to get weapon specialisation. Dervish Dance is more of skill-point-tax when you could just use slashing grace.Why would you want Weapon Specialization. The whole selling point of the Swashbuckler class is that you're already getting a big boost to your damage. It's like a Cleric taking Iron...
I’m just going on my experience from PFS.
Other strategies will be better in other games.
For lunge, that seems like a cool way to s$#~ down full-attacks so maybe I’m just not playing high enough level for that to matter yet?
I’m also not sure how many PFS maps give you the space to use that strategy. Maybe other adventures typically have more room.
As for Favoured Class Bonuses, Swashbucklers are low in feats. And I just do not get through that many panache points. I suppose that once you get to level 8, taking toughness is more efficient but it is a long road to level 8 and low levels are when you feel panache-starved, that all fades when you can crit 15-20 and can afford plumes. I’m thinking of retraining my extra panache feat.
Again, just my experience, but I haven’t felt the need to parry loads of attacks more than once or twice. Parry&Riposte their first attack and then rely on high AC.
Regarding damage, my swash is routinely out-damaged by strength-based melee characters and divine self-buffers. I have been using anything I can to try and keep up so that I am not just trailing in the shadows behind those characters.
That’s what I have seen in PFS.
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One question about Arch types:
There is a Pathfinder Archetype called Inspired Blade. It gets to add Dex damage at Level 1 by taking Slashing Grace early as opposed to level 3 by letting you have Weapon Focus free. The Big Drawback, no Panache for Kills only confirming Crits.
Do you think that’s equal to losing the Crit to kills ? Seems a lot to give away.
You know, I’ve been distracted by rules talk from the real reason to post here...
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I count myself very lucky indeed ! The group also includes the Remarkable Lou Agresta, the Amazing Neil Spicer, and some kid who knows a lot about Greyhawk and Cheliax named Erik Mona. Hope he’s not the weak link.
Regarding damage, my swash is routinely out-damaged by strength-based melee characters and divine self-buffers. I have been using anything I can to try and keep up so that I am not just trailing in the shadows behind those characters.
That’s what I have seen in PFS.
Two-handed strength builds should be superior at lower levels, so that's not a surprise. I think it's better to think of the Swashbuckler as a class with respectable damage and great melee defenses, rather than great melee damage.
Instead of trying to bridge the damage gap in dmg per hit, I think it's more worthwhile to focus on securing more attacks per round. Stylish Riposte and AoOs from movement can help you overcome the Barb's total dmg. Throw in the Fortuitous Weapon Enchantment at higher levels to really get an edge.
But the main problem is that Weapon Specialization just isn't a very good feat. +2 dmg will quickly lose its importance on a class that adds 1.25 their level to dmg (Precise Strike/Weapon Training).
You can only take piranha strike with a light weapon.
I played my swash for about three levels using piranha strike until somebody pointed out that I was doing it wrong.
There is a solution to that problem. The Effortless Lace would allow you to use Piranha Strike with a one-handed weapon. (Not legal for PFS though, so that's not helping you)
One question about Arch types:
There is a Pathfinder Archetype called Inspired Blade. It gets to add Dex damage at Level 1 by taking Slashing Grace early as opposed to level 3 by letting you have Weapon Focus free. The Big Drawback, no Panache for Kills only confirming Crits.
Do you think that’s equal to losing the Crit to kills ? Seems a lot to give away.
The Inspired Blade's class features only works with the Rapier, which is probably why it hasn't been brought up yet. So you can't use it with the Scimitar, which you said was your primary weapon.
The Inspired Blade's panache drawback is a bit more noticeable at lower levels when you don't have your increased crit range or enough attacks per round to trigger it. But it won't make much of a difference later on. And the real benefit of the Inspired Blade is that it allows you to make an Intelligence-based Swashbuckler.
If you replace the Dodging Panache deed for the Vengeful Heart Deed of Renown (found here on the SRD) you no longer have any class features scaling off Charisma, which is an inferior ability score.
With the Student of Philosophy social trait you can still be the face character, but will have nearly double the amount of skill ranks a normal swashbuckler has.
(Unfortunately the Aasimar doesn't have a +Dex/+Int choice)
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I think your best bet right now is the Whirling Dervish if you're going with the Scimitar (take the Blade of Mercy religion trait so you can deal nonlethal without penalty). If you can agree to changing your weapon that opens up new options.
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I didn't recognize your handle. Started reading your post and was like wait a moment, I know this guy. To be fair, I can't really see you playing a paladin either. Maybe try asking if he'll let you play a paladin of Abadar. Claim that greed is a religious pursuit.
Personally, I would avoid taking power attack or piranha strike on a swashbuckler. You're lowering your attack bonus for the round, making you less likely to succeed at parry and riposte.
Here's a few other dips to consider taking 1-4 levels of: Class (archetype)
Spiritualst (exciter). Downside-you lose 1bab.
Choose dedication phantom. One level dip gives you +2 to fort and will plus the iron will feat, skill focus diplo and sense motive, +4 to saves vs mind affecting, +10 movement speed, rage that gives your choice of various stats including +4 dex&cha or +4 dex&con, a few spells, and 1/day ignoring a failed save against a mind affecting effect.
Unchained Monk (Scaled Fist).
Use a waveblade as your weapon (1d6 damage, 18-20 crit, piercing & slashing). You get cha to ac, an extra attack per round, full bab, +2 fort and ref saves, and combat reflexes as a bonus feat (which you want for your parry and riposting). A second level gives you evasion and another bonus feat (maybe dragon style so you can charge through friends and difficult terrain), and a third level gives +10 movement speed, and a ki pool you can spend for another attack per round.
Gunslinger (black powder vaulter).
Grit and panache stack into one pool, so this would increase your panache pool by your wisdom (1). You get full bab, +2 fort and ref saves, and a new deed to spend 1 grit for +20 speed and double jumping.
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One question about Arch types:
There is a Pathfinder Archetype called Inspired Blade. It gets to add Dex damage at Level 1 by taking Slashing Grace early as opposed to level 3 by letting you have Weapon Focus free. The Big Drawback, no Panache for Kills only confirming Crits.
Do you think that’s equal to losing the Crit to kills ? Seems a lot to give away.
You know, I’ve been distracted by rules talk from the real reason to post here...
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I count myself very lucky indeed ! The group also includes the Remarkable Lou Agresta, the Amazing Neil Spicer, and some kid who knows a lot about Greyhawk and Cheliax named Erik Mona. Hope he’s not the weak link.
*picks up jaw from floor*
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Speaking as his older brother (whose PCs he's killed more than any other player on the planet), he especially loves it when he dishes out a ton of damage an you reply with, "meh."
You'll have a blast. His games are always fun even when you're trying hard not to die.