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I was browsing spells for a way to speak a language in an area you've just arrived at (inspired by the elemental masters series where the mages can have the spirits of an area teach them a local tongue). Anyway it seems pathfinder relies on tongues for this which I've always felt is rather obvious i.e "They're speaking gibberish but I understand them" or at best "Weird I thought you were speaking Elven but my friend Gimli here swears you were talking Dwarven." So I was initially thinking about a spell that would permanently grant you a language but then I stumbled across cultural adapatation and its ability to make you seem like a native of an area so instead I'm trying to create an item to make you seem like a native (you can always use wish or I may come back to spell lanaguage learning).
So we have ring of "Native Elf" that makes you speak and act like someone raised in elven lands right down to the accent. The components I think I need are . . .
Skill bonus (competence): Bonus squared x 100 gp (Skill - linguistics + elven language)
Use-activated or continuous: Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp2 (Cultural Apropriation)
Multiple different abilities: Multiply lower item cost by 1.5
I'm not 100% sure skill bonus linguistics gives you an actual language though so I also consider the circlet of speaking 2,400 gp that allows animals to talk to humans (presumably in common) This gives you . . .
((Bonus squared x 100 gp) + (Spell level x caster level x 2,000)) * 1.5
((1 squared x 100) + (1 * 1 * 2000)) * 1.5 = 3,150 GP
or
(1,200 (items generally cost 1/2 to make right?) + Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp2) * 1.5
(1,200 + (1 * 1 * 2,000)) * 1.5 = 4,800 GP
Since the second is higher I'd be going with that giving me a ring of elven native costing 4,800 GP to make, 9,600 GP to buy that if worn allows you to speak elven with an accent appropriate to the elven kingdom an act like a native of that area including mannerisms, geastures, etc.
Which can be forged in 5 day's of 8 hours labour a day providing you make your checks.
Is that right?
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Seems like you should use the Ring of Culturemeld as a starting point, but increase the price if it is fully usable by a non-halfelf.
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Hmmm didn't know about that I wonder how it works when it stops working? Do you just lose the bonuses or do you lose the ability to read/write the language entirely. Still its similar enough to what I'm working on it can be adapted that slowly gives you the ability to speak and read the language where you are whereas the one I have gives you the ability to permanently speak a specific language. How does this sound then for an item good/overpowered/underpowered/overpriced?
Ring of Cultural Acquisition
Aura moderate enchantment CL 7th
Slot ring; Price 22,700 gp; Weight —
Description
This simple silver band adorned with an amythyst stone and marked with letters in a language on the inner band is a popular item amongst spys and other people seeking to blend in with a new culture. When first created each ring is bound to a specific culture or subculture and language spoken there. A ring of cultural acquisition slowly alters the wearer’s words and manner to match that of a native for a given area.
If worn for 24 hours it bestows on the wearer to speak and understand the language tied to it and they gain that language as a language they know if they don't already know it. After 4 more days of wearing the ring, the wearer gains the ability to read and write the language as well. Finally after a full week wearing the ring the final elements of the transformation takes place with the wearer being transformed similarly to the effects of the cultural adapation spell now speaking the language with a native accent and slang, in addition their body language and gestures mark them as a native of the culture, and they unconsciously make small decisions that help them blend in with that culture. Removing the ring at any point during the week will prevent further changes taking place but not undo any that have already occured.
After this point the ring confers no additional benefit and can be removed without penalty. Although it is worth noting that now speaking and acting as a native of a new area the only way the spy can shake this is either by normal means (spending years in their original culture) or by use of another ring. Some spy's have been known to grumble that the absence of a ring for their home culture meant they took decades to shake the accent and mannerisms they picked up and they STILL lapse into their new native language when swearing or upset.
Requirements Forge Ring, comprehend languages; Cultural Adaption; Cost 11,350 gp
So, for more cash than a Belt of Giant Strength +4 and a Cloak of Resistance +2, you get...
1. Almost the full benefit of putting a point into Linguistics after 24 hours.
2. The full benefit of that skill point in 4 days.
3. An extremely situational +2 to a useful skill and an extremely situation +2 to an extremely situation skill after a week.
4. An extremely situational +1 bonus to a specific school of magic.
5. A weird--borderline curse--effect.
I'd say the awful deal of #5 should cut the cost in half, but the effects are so minor and insignificant that having them taken away in some other insignificant situation is hardly an issue.
For granting a specific language and a blanket +2 on Cha-based skills when interacting with the people it's keyed to--no weird curses, no weird waiting periods--I'd pay...I dunno. *Maybe* 2,000gp. Maybe.
- This talk should be in the Advice section -
I agree with Quixote, 22k is horrendously expensive to have one changeable language slot, 22k is more than what a Ring of Invisibility is priced at.
I also agree with the assessment of 2k.
- And I think the Ring of Culturemeld is also horribly over-priced, I wouldn't pay this even for a non-slotted Wondrous Item with this effect -
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First thing I will say is acknowledge that there are two different ways of looking at the price of items. One is “at what price is such an item affordable enough that someone might actually use it?” The other is “what should the price be according to the game mechanics?” There are many, many published items that are so expensive for what they do no adventurer would ever buy them. I’m going to answer from the game design side. Spoiler alert: the price is going to be very high.
Let’s start with the ring of culturemeld and work backwards. It’s actually very reasonably priced for what it does.
Most, but not all, of the abilities are only usable by a half-elf. Ordinarily you would multiply by 1.43 to remove that restriction, so let’s call it 1.3
7800x1.3=10,140
If the bonuses to diplomacy and sense motive were total (no limitations), that would cost 6,250. They are limited - especially the Sense Motive bonus - so we will multiply that by, oh, 0.7
6250*0.7=4,375
Now we can price the part of the ring you want to duplicate - the ability to understand, speak, and read a language.
10,140-4,375=5,765
We have a reasonable cost for the languages part (5765 gp) now let’s proceed to the specifics of your ring.
Adding cultural adaptation is straightforward. Spell level x caster level x 2000 x 1.5 (10 min/level normally)
1 x 1 x 2000 x 1.5 = 3000
Multiply by another 1.5 (adding another ability to the item)
3000 x 1.5 = 4500
Add the original cost
5765 + 4500 = 10,265
Now comes the expensive part: you want to make it permanent. Unfortunately there’s no good comparisons for this. I’m going to call it a single-use, use-activated casting of permanency at minimum caster level. Spell level x caster level x 50 + material component
5 x 9 x 50 + 2500 = 4750
So your item could cost 10,265 + 4750 = 15,015.
Let’s call it 15,000 to make it easy.
But there are two catches. The first is that the whole effect would be subject to dispel magic. The other is that I priced out a single-use item (“the ring becomes non-magical after conferring its full effects”). If you want to make it reusable, multiply the permanency cost by 50. Yeah, we’re now up to 247,750 gp.
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- This talk should be in the Advice section -
I agree with Quixote, 22k is horrendously expensive to have one changeable language slot, 22k is more than what a Ring of Invisibility is priced at.
I also agree with the assessment of 2k.
- And I think the Ring of Culturemeld is also horribly over-priced, I wouldn't pay this even for a non-slotted Wondrous Item with this effect -
First off I actually agree for what it does 22 thousand is expensive although its an item that would be more used by kingdoms to create spies than adventurers.
Secondly I thought creating a new thread would be in violation of don't duplicate topics. This one was originally specifically to check I was doing the item pricing right. I like magicians but don't normally make items so I wasn't sure if there were other things I should be factoring in or if my reading was correct e.g. the skill bonus for 1 rank being the right value to include for a skill effect.
Which is what Belafon addresses and confirms yes I did miss things (hence the original post being in rules). Now to address his post.
1) So your working out the cost of the ring is what I did then doubled that 10k craft cost to get the sale price of 22k. However I missed the steps after that so lets see.
2) Ok so 250k hmmm that's quite a jump and more than I expected.
3) I wont take that price though because I don't want it dispellable but a one off effect instantaneous vs permanent to use pathfinder terms. How would that affect the price do you think? The items I'd have used (girdle of opposite gender or helm of opposite alignment) are actually curses that can be undone if with difficulty?
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The first rule for pricing new magic items (even if it was printed only in Ultimate Campaign) is to compare them to existing items. The pricing guidelines are to be used only if that fails.
To me, it seems that the Ring of Culturemind and your Ring of Cultural Acquisition are close enough in powers and effects, with the "only usable by half-elves" for part of its powers being more than balanced by being useable only once.
A purchase price of 8,000 gp seems reasonable.
@Belafon: the "+5 competence bonus on language-based Diplomacy checks" is race-neutral. It works separately from the other powers of the ring.
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That compare to items and if that fails then consult item pricing guides is useful advice thank you.
I think I'll go with 4,000 craft and 8,000 buy. Seems about right considering its not intended to be a general adventurer item but more for kingdoms as I said earlier.
Still helpful advice in pricing magical items I can use in the future.
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If that's how you want to price the item for your campaign, by all means do so. The GM should always make things work for individual situations. Have fun!
However, if you were to submit this item to Paizo's RPG Superstar competition, one of the judges' comments would certainly be "how many zeros did this author forget in the pricing?" Again: this isn't a comment on how much such an item should cost to be reasonably useful. It's solely an analysis of the rules for magic item creation.
One of the things your item does is give the cultural adaptation spell. Permanently, even after you remove the item. That ability alone as a continuous unslotted magic item (meaning it could only be used by one person at a time, could be suppressed by antimagic, and you had to keep it with you) would have a price of 6,000 gp. If you wanted the item to permanently add this to a character as an inherent (undispellable) ability it would be way more expensive. Way, way, way more expensive if you could use the item over and over again to add the ability to multiple people.
Spell Level x Caster Level x 2000(continuous) x 1.5(10 min/level) x 2(unslotted)
1 x 1 x 2000 x 1.5 x 2 = 6,000 gp.
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Honestly, doing all of this via magic is not your best use of money and time. If you're planning this for some kind of kingdom's spy I'd just use the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign to learn the language. It takes 20 days and costs (200 x character level) gold. Then give them a ring that provides constant cultural adaptation (3000 gp). Way cheaper.
Agreed on the thread relocation.
I just don't understand. Sure, look at similar items and compare. Compare. That doesn't mean you're shackled to the price tag of the original.
And sure, there are formulas in place. Use them. As a guideline. A weapon that has a permanent True Strike effect or a wand that gives you at-will Cure Light Wounds are not okay at any price, much less what the formulae lead you to. The same goes in reverse. I don't care if a slotless item grants you ten different effects; if they're all luck bonuses to Profession and Climb and at-will uses of crap spells, it's not a good item and therefore not worth very much.
The rules for determining cost are helpful, but in the end, if an item is not going to be used because it's price and it's effects don't match up, why bother?
Granted, this doesn't matter so much with an item that the PC's won't be using or selling, but at that point, who cares what the cost is?
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If that's how you want to price the item for your campaign, by all means do so. The GM should always make things work for individual situations. Have fun!
However, if you were to submit this item to Paizo's RPG Superstar competition, one of the judges' comments would certainly be "how many zeros did this author forget in the pricing?" Again: this isn't a comment on how much such an item should cost to be reasonably useful. It's solely an analysis of the rules for magic item creation.
One of the things your item does is give the cultural adaptation spell. Permanently, even after you remove the item. That ability alone as a continuous unslotted magic item (meaning it could only be used by one person at a time, could be suppressed by antimagic, and you had to keep it with you) would have a price of 6,000 gp. If you wanted the item to permanently add this to a character as an inherent (undispellable) ability it would be way more expensive. Way, way, way more expensive if you could use the item over and over again to add the ability to multiple people.
** spoiler omitted **
It doesn't give a permanent cultural adaptation spell. It gives the permanent effect of one specific casting of the spell. Very different.
If it was a permanent access to the spell it would be possible to target a different culture every X hours.
If you want to price it, the cost of that should be in line with casting permanency on a 1st level spell. 2,500 gp
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If that's how you want to price the item for your campaign, by all means do so. The GM should always make things work for individual situations. Have fun!
However, if you were to submit this item to Paizo's RPG Superstar competition, one of the judges' comments would certainly be "how many zeros did this author forget in the pricing?" Again: this isn't a comment on how much such an item should cost to be reasonably useful. It's solely an analysis of the rules for magic item creation.
One of the things your item does is give the cultural adaptation spell. Permanently, even after you remove the item. That ability alone as a continuous unslotted magic item (meaning it could only be used by one person at a time, could be suppressed by antimagic, and you had to keep it with you) would have a price of 6,000 gp. If you wanted the item to permanently add this to a character as an inherent (undispellable) ability it would be way more expensive. Way, way, way more expensive if you could use the item over and over again to add the ability to multiple people.
** spoiler omitted **It doesn't give a permanent cultural adaptation spell. It gives the permanent effect of one specific casting of the spell. Very different.
If it was a permanent access to the spell it would be possible to target a different culture every X hours.
It's not "permanent access to a spell," it's having the spell continuously active on a piece of equipment - like a ring of energy resistance. When you put on a ring of energy resistance you don't get to change the energy type; it's fixed to the ring. And that's how I tried to price it. If it was use-activated or command word, you could change it each time you activated it (if the construction allowed that) but you would have to reactivate it every 10 minutes.
Since you pointed that out, I agree it is reasonable to discount the price somewhat since you don't get to make the choice of cultures. Using the ring of energy resistance as a reference again, let's say that would reduce it to 2/3. So 4,000 gp instead of 6,000.
What the original author wrote - and what I was referring to when I said "permanent" is that item he designed would permanently imbue the effects of that cultural adaptation into the wearer after a week. As an undispellable effect that persists for years even after the ring is removed.
If you want to price it, the cost of that should be in line with casting permanency on a 1st level spell. 2,500 gp
2,950 by the time you count paying for someone to cast it. (And assuming you allowed permanency on cultural adaptation, it's not allowed by default.) But magic items are always more expensive than getting the same effect directly from a spellcaster. I still think calling the permanency part a "single use, use activated" spell effect is the right call. So 4,750 gp.
That gives up 8,750 gp for a ring that can impart a single culture to an individual (once). We aren't even considering the language part. But that pricing would be for an effect that is dispellable. And that can only be used once, not passed to a new person every week. Unlimited use is a x50 multiplier (including the 2,500 gp material component cost). Pricing something that gives someone an inherent, undispellable ability? - there's no reference point in PF1. The only thing I can think of is the stat books, and they use wish or miracle as their basis.
I need to be perfectly clear: I believe/agree the "correct" price is way too high for anyone to ever buy this item. But that's a function of how magic item creation rules work. If this item is the perfect solution for your campaign, price it accordingly with the PCs' wealth and ignore the math. Since the OP asked "does my pricing look right" I answered.