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I see this come up a lot, on several threads.
When, if ever, is the size of the damage die better for a high damage build than multiple attacks and/or bonuses?
At the earliest levels (maybe just 1), when bonuses are still relatively small, I can see it mattering. But pretty quickly isn't it your ability, magic, class, and feat bonuses that make up the majority of your damage? Since all of these (except bonus dice from precision effects) get multiplied on a crit, even crit builds don't seem to care much about dice size.
Are there builds where the die size matters? Obviously a d8 is nicer to have than a d6 if you don't need to invest resources, but aside from that . . . .?
Just wondering.
Edit: oh! Maximized spells maybe. Is there such a thing as maximized weapon attacks?
Once you get to adding multiple dice from a size increases its very important.
Butchers axe 3d6
Oversized butchers axe 4d6
Enlarged oversized butchers axe 6d6
Impact oversized Enlarged butchers axe 8d6
Growing impact enlarged oversized butchers axe 12d6
Huge user, oversized impact growing butchers axe 16d6
Then vital strike
It depends on the circumstances, but damage bonuses are easier to get than damage dice increase. For natural attack builds, more attacks are also easier to get than damage dice increases.
To lay down some groundwork:
Let's say you have an 8th level Barbarian. 22 strength (+4 when raging), Power Attack, +1 greatsword. Damage roll is 2d6+22, with the weapon part resulting in an average damage of 7, that means that over 75% of the damage comes from damage bonuses.
Let's say you have an 8th level Wild Shape Druid. 20 Strength (+6 from WS), +1 AoMF. Form A is a the Allosaurus, which has 3 attacks, doing 2d6, 1d8, 1d8 damage, respectively. Form B is the Elasmotherium, which has one attack doing 6d6 damage. Let's presume an adjacent target for the sake of the argument.
Form A has a damage roll routing of 2d6+10, 1d8+10, 1d8+10, for a total of 46 if all attacks hit. Form B has a damage roll of 6d6+14, for an average of 35 if it hits. The multi-attack-form does ~31% more damage. Of course, multiple attacks require full attacks to work, which is why I used a form with pounce for the comparison.
People tend to overrate damage dice, not doing the math. For example, let's imagine the Druid casts Strong Jaw. The Elasmotherium's damage dice increases to 12d6, that sound's crazy high, right? In comparison, the Allosaurus' damage dice only increase to 4d6 (bite) and 3d6 (claws). However, if you do the math, the Elasmotherium's increase is +21 average damage, the Allosaurus' increase is +19. Thus, the Allosaurus is still clearly ahead.
Is there such a thing as maximized weapon attacks?
Just realized I mislabeled the thread. This is about damage die vs. damage mod, NOT damage bonus. Sorry, my bad folks. Terminology fail.
Actually, unless I'm misunderstanding what this thread is about, "damage bonus" is the correct term. I don't even know what a "damage mod" is supposed to be.
here's the deal, increasing your die from 1d6 to 1d8 is a net gain (on average) of +1 damage, increasing the number of die (depending on the die size) is an increase in MORE than +1 damage on average. for example 1d6 = 3.5 on average, 2d6 = 7 on average and 1d8 = 4.5 on average. so +1 damage dice is better than +1 damage bonus which is roughly the same as +1 die size.
of course, you still need to worry about hitting, so you need to balance "to damage" increases with "To hit" losses associated with them.
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Edit: oh! Maximized spells maybe. Is there such a thing as maximized weapon attacks?
Yes, it's the feat furious finish.
Use it with the vital strike chain of feats, a cyclops helm, and the scarab amulet that auto confirms a crit 1/day and you auto hit, auto crit, max damage, vital strike.Generally at level 7 or 8 you can dish out well over 200 damage with this set up, around 250-280 depending on how much you wanna ramp things up
This assumes titan mauler 3/ 2 hand fighter 3/ living Monolith 1. And no precombat buff time. Just free/swift actions on their 1st turn then move and vital strike.
24d6+72, maximized 216
36d6+72 maximized 288 with lead blades or impact
The solid # added is significantly less than the dice amounts
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Is there a general rule of thumb for this issue, or is it always going to come down to case by case number crunching?
Well, a good rule of thump is to look at the average damage increase per feat/enchantment bonus/whatever spend and compare it to similar options for the same cost. For instance, the Wilding Strike line of feats is +1 average damage per feat (including the prereq feat which doesn't really do anything), and even though not everyone can take Weapon Specialization, it should be clear that the cost/gain ratio is seriously off. Meanwhile, the Shikigami Style line, when applied to a sledge hammer, is +3.5 per feat even if you include Catch Off-Guard (which a bunch of archetypes grant), so those feats are easily worth the cost even if you don't care about the other effects of the followup feats. Similarly, the impact enchantment costs a +2 to attack and damage rolls, so that's not worth it just for a 1d6 (=3.5 average) increase. It can be worth it if you stack it with other increases; divide the total damage increase from all size increases by the number of increases to see how much each increase grants.
There are so very many times where there isn't a clear charge lane. And a majority of rounds, the enemies are just a five foot step away, anyway.
Certainly not in my experience. And my Summoner was in a party with a pouncing WS Druid, said Druid's pouncing animal companion, and another melee, so plenty of front row bodies. In an AP (Carrion Crown), so not just easy mode homebrew. My Eidolon could almost always charge, and very often charged multiple times in a single combat.
If there's no charge lane, chances are the melee can't reach the enemy with a move action, either. Also, at 10th level, the Eidolon permanently flies, so terrain stops being an issue, and outdoor party members as well.
Yes, it's the feat furious finish.
Use it with the vital strike chain of feats
Furious Finish only works with VS, not Improved or Greater.
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What I originally called damage bonus would be all of the non-dice rolled numbers that get added onto an attacks damage total. When I (possibly erroneously) shifted this term to damage mod, my thinking came from terms like Str mod. I was trying to distinguish from bonus dice and any other damage additives that don't get multiplied on a crit.
The groups I play with often call this "static damage," because it's the part of your damage that's fixed. So, for example, when you hit, the GM might say, "Don't bother rolling, your static damage is more than enough to take it out."
I have a PFS character that represents my attempt to maximize damage output with a martial character. My ranger/fighter had a impact earth mauler by the time he was able to take Improved Vital Strike at 11th level, and now regularly dishes out 50-point hits and 100-point crits. And he has Cleaving Finish to help him get in an extra attack now and then. I know he's not nearly as optimized as the theorycrafters here would produce, or the couple of compulsive min-maxers I play with regularly, but I'm pretty happy with those results.
When, if ever, is the size of the damage die better for a high damage build than multiple attacks and/or bonuses?
At the earliest levels (maybe just 1), when bonuses are still relatively small, I can see it mattering. But pretty quickly isn't it your ability, magic, class, and feat bonuses that make up the majority of your damage? Since all of these (except bonus dice from precision effects) get multiplied on a crit, even crit builds don't seem to care much about dice size.
Are there builds where the die size matters? Obviously a d8 is nicer to have than a d6 if you don't need to invest resources, but aside from that . . . .?
Just to clarify how much the crit-range matters, someone did the calculations for a Greatsword vs a Falchion and decided that you're better off with the Falchion when you get past +20 static damage (and both weapons are keen).
Eg.
Keen Greatsword = 2d6+x, 17-20/×2
Keen Falchion = 2d4+x, 15-20/×2
If x = less than 20 you're better off with the Greatsword.
If x = more than 20 you're better off with the Falchion.
If x = exactly 20 they do the same damage.
Now I could have these numbers wrong (I'll check after work when I have time), but there is a calculation you can make to determine whether the damage dice are better.
A couple of things to know about this comparison:
1. A Greatsword does (on average) 2 more damage per hit, or 4 more damage on a successful crit.
2. A Falchion crits more often, but
- On a roll of 2-14 neither of them crit, so the Greatsword still wins.
- On a roll of 17-20 they both crit, so the Greatsword still wins.
- On a roll of 15-16 the Falchion crits but the Greatsword doesn't so the Falchion wins.
- Even on those crit-rolls you still have to co firm the crit, so if you don't confirm then the Greatsword still wins. Also Critical Focus (and similar abilities) has not been calculated into this.
So the damage number between a Greatsword isn't much (+2) but it takes a +20 modifier to make up the difference. This is because the Falchion only threatens ~10% more often than the Greatsword.
Just a thought so you can evaluate a bit yourself.
Keen Greatsword = 2d6+x, 17-20/×2
Keen Falchion = 2d4+x, 15-20/×2
If x = less than
2019 you're better off with the Greatsword.If x = more than
2019 you're better off with the Falchion.If x = exactly
2019 they do the same damage.
Just did some quick calculations and it looks like I was off by 1.
Just did some quick calculations and it looks like I was off by 1.Keen Greatsword = 2d6+x, 17-20/×2
Keen Falchion = 2d4+x, 15-20/×2
If x = less than
2019 you're better off with the Greatsword.If x = more than
2019 you're better off with the Falchion.If x = exactly
2019 they do the same damage.
It's also worth nothing that both these assumed you're going for crits (they were both keen weapons).
If you had a +2 Keen Falchion vs a +1 Impact Greatsword (3d6) you'd have to look at the numbers more closely. If you regularly use Enlarge Person that Impact Greatsword gets even more damage (4d6).
Impact isn't usually considered super good, the bonus to hit from straight +1's is often more valuable and Impact doesn't help to overcome DR. These would be fine but Impact costs +2 to your weapon. +2d6 damage doesn't sound bad on that Greatsword, but it's the same as adding 2 elemental damage types (eg. Flaming and Frost).
If you can get enough damage though the extra damage dice can really stack up. 3d6 base damage plus Impact plus Enlarge would be 6d6. Greater Vital strike makes that 24d6 (~84) damage before adding modifiers. If you're going Vital Strike you can probably get your to-hit high enough that you don't care about +2 to hit, and when you're dealing 90+ damage on a hit you don't really care about DR.
Generally speaking static damage bonuses are more important, but if you build for it the damage dice can be pretty impactful (pun intended).
Also Reach.
I spend a little while working some things out recently and decided Reach = Crits.
×2 Crit = extra attack roll (confirmation roll) plus 100% extra damage.
AoO from Reach = extra attack roll plus 100% extra damage.
(Obviously ×3 and ×4 crits are slightly different, but it's the same principle.)
They're both basically an increased chance of procc-ing an extra attack - which is super valuable - but with different activation conditions. Also you can potentially get an AoO or a crit with any weapon, but having the high crit-range or Reach increases those chances.
So when comparing a Falchion (2d4, 18-20/×2) to a Lucerne Hammer (1d12, 20/×2) you might need to take into account any AoOs that might trigger. It's harder to do those calculations (because AoOs are harder to predict) but it's something to consider.
The best part is that these bonus attacks multiply each other (you can crit on an AoO), so the best melee weapon is - in my opinion - the Fauchard. Exotic, 1d10, 18-20/×2.
I made a Fauchard Warpriest build that had Cornugon Smash and Hurtful (after attacking an enemy potentially get another attack against that enemy again 1/round) and Cleaving Finish (if I kill an enemy potentially get another attack against a different enemy within reach). This was basically stacking all the methods I could think if to gain bonus attack rolls during a round.
TLDR: There's more to dealing damage than the dice and the crit-range/multiplier. Just something to think about.
someone did the calculations for a Greatsword vs a Falchion and decided that you're better off with the Falchion when you get past +20 static damage (and both weapons are keen).
The full formula for when two such weapons where one has a lower crit range but higher damage are equal is (20D+D*H)/(H-L)-D. H is the crit range of the higher range weapon (1 for 20, 2 for 19-20, etc.), L is the crit range of the lower range weapon, and D is the damage average difference (e.g. 2 for comparing a 2d4 and a 2d6 weapon). For greatsword and falchion, that's (20*2+2*3)/(3-2)-2=44. That's the amount of noncritable damage where the two weapons are equal, above that, the falchion is better, below, the greatsword is. To calculate the damage bonus needed for the higher crit range weapon to be worth it, subtract that weapon's average damage, e.g. 44-5=39. Note that ImpCrit changes that a lot, with X=(20*2+2*6)/(6-4)-2-5=19. So without ImpCrit, greatsword is usually better, with it, falchion wins.
In general, the higher the critable bonus damage, the better a high crit range is, while non-critable bonus damage favors high base damage weapons.
@Derklord, thanks for contributing, but I think you got your threads crossed a bit with your post to Melkiador.
Oops! Sorry about that!
Picking up on the on-topic stuff in my last post, the same evaluation is also called for to compare whether Exotic Weapon Proficiency is worth it. FOr example, a bastard Sword is +1 average damage over a longsword, that's a bad cost/gain ratio. You could even combine that stuff with the crit stuff above, for instance, if we have +15 critable damage bonus, a EWP spend on a split-blade sword is worth ~1.5 damage, that's okay-ish but not good for a feat (especially since it decreases in worth as damage bonuses climb).
+2 Keen Falchion vs a +1 Impact Greatsword (3d6)
With 20+ critable damage bonus, the falchion is better, below that, the greatsword wins.
If you regularly use Enlarge Person that Impact Greatsword gets even more damage (4d6).
At 26 critable damage bonus both are equal (above that falchion wins, below that greatsword wins).