Doing what?
Running you through an educational session?
I think the basic idea of running a demo battle, perhaps a good version vs. a bad version, has merit.
"Look what happens if you..."
-let them flank you or worse, your weaker members.
-separate too much (30' generally speaking)
-trip or get tripped.
-take attacks/damage with or without a shield raised
-skirmish vs. stand toe-to-toe
Unfortunately, the potential list is somewhat endless and would have to figure in various combinations of enemy numbers, types, and strength. I find new players, untainted by RPGs/MMORPGs tend to grasp the basics better, so there seems to be an intuitive aspect that hopefully your players can connect to.
And some people just won't get it.
I had a veteran player whose group was getting bombarded at range by severe enemies. Everybody else that turn had moved to total cover while he almost ended his turn out in the open because he didn't know what to do with his last action. I pointed out how his PC noticed the enemies couldn't target his allies, only him, and he finally got it, and was quite surprised that hey, that action I was about to toss away may make a difference. (A huge difference in fact.)
In most situations I wouldn't have been so generous, yet it was early in a one-shot w/ a new character. And I'll likely never play a campaign with that guy again because his PCs, however well built, simply can't hold their own when tactics matter.
This is potentially something that I would be interested in lending a hand with. I say potentially because it is Christmas and the world is just as busy (if not busier) as it was before Covid. I had done a 1 on 1 session with a player who ran a full group through some of his own experimental ideas, and it seemed to be successful enough. A quick 5 encounter adventure should be good for getting the hang of good habits.
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Back when I was playing a champion, a fellow player wanted to rebuild her monk as a fighter. She's not as system savvy as the rest of us are, so she wanted to do a test combat to get a hold on her abilities. I ended up doing an in-character duel with her, throwing out advice while doing it, and it helped her understand her character a lot more and we had fun doing it.
I can set up something a little more tailored after the holidays. If people are interested, I'll put together something for Roll20 and Discord. It would be something quick, maybe two to three hours. Only snag is that I'm in Japan's timezone, which could make scheduling a bit difficult for some.
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I'll keep an eye on the thread and set up a place as people become interested. Looking forward to it!
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This looks very worthy and interesting. Alas, living in France makes this pretty much the opposite of my timezone (not to mention language issues) .
But I now feel there would also be value in a tactics guide full of tips on how to use your actions in combat for best result, with advice specific to classes or even builds.
For example, both a Paladin and their teammates need to know that the Paladin must be in the thick of the melee with their fighting mates nearby. Not alone by themselves.
Or that most in-combat healing spells have a range of 30ft. And that ending up further than this from healers is a pretty big risk.
Really one of the biggest point is know your teammates' abilities (especially the ones they will use most often, be it Striking or casting) and help them make the most of it through delaying and positioning.
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Ok. This thread is amazing. So nice seeing so many people getting together for this!
I'll be keeping watch here. I sadly have not enough time contributing, but I'll be running the Beginner Box adventure for some friends during the holidays, only one has been following the system closely (he was a player in my Playtest group, along with one other that stopped following until there was more content), all are veterans of many other TTRPG systems.
I'll see how it goes, and take notes.
[EDIT] I have also GMed AoA for mostly new players and veterans that hadn't played for a while and saw that the two new players did indeed have better "PF2 tactics" than the others, but I was lucky and the others adapted very quickly (a sorcerer and a wizard, so there weren't in the fray anyway). The new players also use up their Hero point much more freely too. In the end, they basically destroyed encounters that are often warned as "high chance of TPK" by other GMs, even if one of them was actually scaled up by me (added more low-level enemies) because the combats seemed a bit too easy.
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I'm also interested - I'd say I'm fairly experienced, got the basics down.
Actually one of the things I enjoy most is running into trouble, realizing that the enemy has upped the game and it's time to evolve. Like when you start playing against flying enemies with reach and AoOs, and you need to have an answer to that, as a squishy caster or as a melee warrior that can't reach them in turn. Often the other players are calling the encounter unfair, and I'm taking notes thinking hey, here's a cool new challenge, how can I be more ready for this the next time?
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I used to use the Girallon in an example battle in 3.X/PF1.
I'd play one and the new player would play the other, starting out of reach. Inevitably, they'd move forward and attack (perhaps w/ me Delaying so they could go first). And my monster would shred theirs in one round (or maybe two after the Girallon's h.p. got buffed).
For the better game-wise, yet worse demo-wise, I don't think there are such clear cut examples in PF2. It'd practically take a whole script.
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So what's the next phase?
If talking basics, I'd think low-level naturally even if that excludes some of the spell tactics (i.e. Slow). And PFS because those are compact, notably easier than the modules/APs, and cheap too.
PFS leans heavy into humanoid enemies, which may not give the most diverse examples. (May as well fight mirror matches or PvP*). If there is such a beast I'd suggest an outdoor adventure because then there should be terrain, distance, & cover to consider as well as animals which always have cool abilities to account for (Grab, Trip, Sneak Attack, etc.)
That should be enough of a foundation, covering the bread-n'-butter tactics.
May even want to replay battles after discussion. The dice will fall differently, but I'd think there might be notable differences.
*PvP actually would be useful, especially if players use the same builds. Then tactics might stand out that much more.
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I dunno about PvP - NPCs are fundamentally not built the same as PCs, even though they might have a glossy PC class coating sprayed onto them. You don't add PC levels to a monster, you design a monster using the roadmap for a particular class to get the "look and feel" of the class.
But yeah, a sort of "running the gauntlet" challenge might be interesting. You can even set it up as an actual gauntlet that you have to run, with maybe a specified amount of healing in between challenges, and the goal is to pass as many challenges as you can before dropping and reloading.
So it really becomes a matter of not brute-forcing your way through challenges at the cost of a lot of HP, but using the lesson of that challenge to do it more easily. For example to get past the skeletons, using your fists to deal bludgeoning damage and easily drop them, vs. using your sword and only getting through if you roll high on damage.
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I do agree that PvP isn't a good way to learn tactics and strategies. I did build out a quick session last night and can start putting it together on roll20 (the only VTT I know well enough, sadly). I have planned to do running commentary during encounters, as well as creating a few helpful charts to sort of peek "behind the screen" so to speak. If you've seen some of my posts from the playtest to now, you may be familiar with them!
I have a lot less on my plate post-Christmas, but I'll get some Discord links out to people soonish (potentially after this weekend).
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PvP wouldn't explore the full range of monsters and their special abilities (i.e. oozes are just asking for a 3rd attack while bosses would be better to step away from if your PC's not built for defense.)
Yet PvP would allow more player involvement and less GM burden.
And if people are using the same basic builds (maybe specific Iconics), against their mirrors, then they're going to really want every advantage they can scrape up. ("Protect Kyra!")
Or players could run the monsters, get a glimpse behind the scenes.
Champions (part of the Hero System) had a suggested (nonlethal) encounter where you toss weaker villains at the superheroes, yet build those villains with synergy and give them the best tactics possible. The point was to demonstrate the tactics you wished your players would utilize. The loss would encourage reflection, which hopefully then leads to the heroes trouncing the same villains later.
It'd be interesting to formulate some combinations with synergy in PF2, though that may go beyond the scope of these first stages.
I think a gauntlet and attrition/time management might be the next level of learning too. Most published encounters have ample lull time available. Also, it's likely best to discuss a battle while the memory's fresh, maybe even replay it.
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Thinking back, my Pathfinder 2nd Edition campaign has had an exceptional number of discovery moments where luck or impulse teaches the players about the system.
For example, at 3rd level, my 5-member party was battling a 4th-level barbarian. They surrounded the barbarian so that the 2 rogues in the party had flanking and then discovered that the barbarian's Deny Advantage ability made him immune to flat-footedness from flanking and hiding. They realized that the nerf to 2 party member would make the fight long and damaging.
I was roleplaying the barbarian as wanting to particularly kill a friendly NPC who had stayed out of reach. And the party left no openings for him to go around. Instead, the barbarian attempted Shove against the ranger. He failed due to a low roll. He tried again and failed again.
The ranger was proud to have resisted the Shoves and responded with a combat maneuver of his own, swinging with his kukri for a Trip against the barbarian. And he succeeded. A prone character is flat-footed despite the Deny Advantage. The rogues got in their damage before the barbarian stood up and the fight ended quickly with the party in reasonable health.
Of course, I helped a little. When the barbarian was prone, I quickly checked conditions list and quoted that prone was flat-footed, too.
And the players remembered that some maneuvers can get around Deny Advantage. At 4th level, they lured a 7th-level rogue with Deny Advantage onto Uneven Ground to render him flat-footed.
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I really need to give the combat chapter a thorough re-read. So many actions other than striking, striding, or casting! (I almost feel like I made the simpler choice by playing a caster class, now....)
I presume that by "combat chapter" Nik Gervae means Chapter 10, Playing the Game, beginning on page 442 in the PF2 Core Rulebook. It begins the discussion of combat on page 446, with a description of Attack Rolls.
But the Skills chapter under Athletics beginning page 241 describes most of the special attacks: Force Open, Grapple, Shove, Trip, and Disarm (Disarm comes last because it requires trained Athletics). In addition, class feats offer special actions that modify the basic Strike action.
The Raise a Shield action is under Playing the Game on page 472, but the Shield Block is under Feats on page 266. Shield Blocking is a serious combat strategy but it is costly. The shield-based martial character gives up the heavier damage of two-handed weapons and has to use a Raise a Shield action. However, Raise a Shield is almost always better than a third Strike. A variant that works well for casters and archers is the Shield cantrip, page 368, one of the few spells that can be cast in a single action. The elf ranger in my campaign took Otherworldly Magic, elf ancestry feat 1, in order to gain the Shield cantrip.
I started talking about shields and ended up at an ancestry feat. The combat actions of PF2 are woven together beyond a single chapter.
Don't forget the ever useful Delay, Aid, Recall Knowledge, and plethora of skill actions in between! If I could bottle the feeling of my player using Quick Repair after breaking his pick against a pair of twin Remorhaz... Oof.
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I did this with two players who joined my Age of Ashes campaign at the start of book two (level 5). One player hadn't played an RPG for about thirty years, the other had never played one at all. I helped them create characters and then ran them through four small but increasingly difficult battles so they could get used to how combat plays out, as well as their character's abilities. it worked out well enough and when we played the campaign things went smoothly for the most part.
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I do agree that PvP isn't a good way to learn tactics and strategies. I did build out a quick session last night and can start putting it together on roll20 (the only VTT I know well enough, sadly). I have planned to do running commentary during encounters, as well as creating a few helpful charts to sort of peek "behind the screen" so to speak. If you've seen some of my posts from the playtest to now, you may be familiar with them!
I have a lot less on my plate post-Christmas, but I'll get some Discord links out to people soonish (potentially after this weekend).
Color me interested. I'm starting to draw up my own list of "things I want to teach" and maybe some situations that allow you to learn them.
The list is longer than I initially expected. This game has a lot of depth.
Also interesting, any GM who runs people through such a gauntlet is also getting schooled themselves into how to make encounters more varied.
It's actually a super fun exercise of encounter building!
It's actually a super fun exercise of encounter building!
It can even be a collaborative exercise. Many people can contribute individual encounters.
Over in the thread {url="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs4391e&page=3?Of-Structuring-and-Enco unters-A-discussion-on"]
Of Structuring and Encounters: A discussion on APs and how combat encounters in this edition impacts them[/url] I felt that Paizo needed to publish a new book on designing encounters, especially social encounters. It could start with some advice and then give examples of encounters. The NPCs in the encounters could also serve as an NPC Gallery like the one in Gamemastery Guide.
Here we are discussing encounters that would serve as training for players. The same encounters could serve both roles.
Currently we have one example, the Example of Play on pages 14 and 15 of the Core Rulebook. My own preference would be a story of the iconic characters with italic rubric text explaining the mechanics and the tactical choices between paragraphs of the story rather than a story of players. Paizo provided pregenerated characters sheets for the iconics at Community Use Package: PF2E Iconics Pregenerated Characters.
I can't write up an example today. I am snowed in and digging my way out.
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It would be really cool for any PF2 live play cast folks, if a GM started recording their GM prep time, talking out loud about how they expect things to go, then pairing it with the more common after session breakdown with the players or audience about how things actually went. It could be separate content. It would probably get a little less of a following, but if you have to prep anyway, it might not be an incredible amount of extra work to do a low key video focused on the VTT you are using as you prep, talking about what you are doing and why and how you expect the PCs to react. If that is happening out there, I'd love to see it.