|
IMO an encounter begins with awareness. If one party is aware and the other isn’t, even if the unaware party “wins” initiative, their action would be to continue to do whatever they were doing before the initiative were rolled. That takes us to the first person with awareness of the other. If that is the caster, then he casts his spell. YMMV
This does lead to the strange outcome (especially for PCs, where it'll be more noticeable) that rolling higher is a worse outcome. My players wouldn't be a huge fan of me saying 'I know you nat-20'd your initiative, but they're sneaking up on you, so you just act normally. Oh, person who nat-1'd? Yeah, the enemies have already acted, so you can spend your actions on relevant things in this combat' - not sure how to resolve this exactly.
IMO an encounter begins with awareness. If one party is aware and the other isn’t, even if the unaware party “wins” initiative, their action would be to continue to do whatever they were doing before the initiative were rolled. That takes us to the first person with awareness of the other. If that is the caster, then he casts his spell. YMMVThis does lead to the strange outcome (especially for PCs, where it'll be more noticeable) that rolling higher is a worse outcome. My players wouldn't be a huge fan of me saying 'I know you nat-20'd your initiative, but they're sneaking up on you, so you just act normally. Oh, person who nat-1'd? Yeah, the enemies have already acted, so you can spend your actions on relevant things in this combat' - not sure how to resolve this exactly.
I remember the good old 'surprise round' from first edition. A 'free round' when you're the one initiating contact before 'real' turns start. I think the 'use Stealth' idea is to avoid that sort of thing too.
That's why I handle it the way I handle it.
The initiative starts because the Wizard starts casting. So, no need of spider senses or anything to justify the fact that enemies can react faster.
I allow the Wizard to use Arcana and as such to get a high initiative, which both rewards him for surprising the enemies, which is logical because he initiates combat through spellcasting and as he is the one initiating combat he should be quite high on the initiative chart.
The result is:
- If the Wizard goes first, everything's fine, the story is logical.
- If some enemies react before the Wizard but the Wizard still casts his Fireball, it's fine. The story is logical.
- If some enemies react before the Wizard and the Wizard decides to cast another spell... Well, in that case, the story is a bit hurt, but not that much as the Wizard is still casting a spell.
- If some enemies react before the Wizard and the Wizard decides to completely forgo casting a spell. It's the only case that will lead to an illogical story. But, as the Wizard uses Arcana for initiative, he needs to roll quite low for this to happen. Also, most Wizards cast spells, especially at the first round of combat. So, this case should happen so rarely that it won't impact the story often.
Using Stealth would hurt the story way more, giving spider senses to the enemies would hurt the story way more, putting the Wizard on top of initiative would not be allowed per RAW (and would be kind of a surprise round). I haven't found another way of dealing with this case that would be more logical.
But if you just use stealth (for the party) vs perception (for the enemies) then it all makes sense.
If the enemy rolls higher it's because they detected the party, the PCs weren't stealthy enough. And then everything makes sense. No spidey sense.
I don't see why you think using stealth gives the enemy spidey sense, it simply means the enemy is more perceptive than the players are stealthy. The PCs tried to sneak up, and the enemy noticed before the players got into position to launch their attack.
Think about it like this, you ever been in a house in the basement. And you hear someone come in through the door. You're aware of their presence, even though you can't see them. So, you hide. They come down stairs looking for you. "Surprise, happy birthday!"
Even if they know you're in the basement, it plays out the same way. Only the person coming down the stairs is less surprised than they might have been.
If the enemy rolls higher it's because they detected the party, the PCs weren't stealthy enough. And then everything makes sense. No spidey sense.
What you describe is Avoid Notice. If the Wizard was avoiding notice, I would completely agree with you. He rolls Stealth, the enemy Perception, and the result of initiative determines who's first and who sees who.
But I'm handling the case where the PC is Unnoticed. So, basically the enemy has absolutely no idea there's a PC there and maybe even no way to detect it. If I roll initiative and an enemy beats the Wizard:
- Either I consider the enemy knows the Wizard's there because reasons and it's spider senses.
- Or the enemy plays his turn without even knowing it is in combat and I basically put the Wizard as first initiative.
So to avoid that I'm asking for an initiative check when the Wizard becomes detectable: When he starts casting.
|
not sure how to resolve this exactly.
There is really nothing to resolve. Initiative is not a magic tool that lets you know bad guys are near. A battle grid does not suddenly appear under your feat. It is merely a tool to organized chaotic combat. It’s just a convenience. Fantasy combat is an abstract representation not a replicant simulation. Even if the character is the most nimble person on the planet, unless they are aware of their enemy they is zero justification for them to change what they were doing seconds ago. It’s why there is strength in numbers and a party uses multiple exploration activities to widen their defense.
If everyone is looking for an ambush, then no one is watching out for hazards and you find them when you hit them. If everyone is focused on avoiding notice, then they aren’t focused on seeking out an ambush. That’s just how the rules are written. So, whether it’s the PCs or their enemies, if one successfully avoids notice of the other, you really only have two choices, (1) allow the undetected to act first, giving them a surprise round (which is not really supported by the 2E rules), or (2) have everyone roll initiative and continue to perform the actions they were already committed to before there was any awareness. Each GM has to decide what makes them comfortable and for me, the latter makes the most sense. It prevents wonkiness and supports all the exploration/encounter actions and activities. YMMV
If the enemy rolls higher it's because they detected the party, the PCs weren't stealthy enough. And then everything makes sense. No spidey sense.What you describe is Avoid Notice. If the Wizard was avoiding notice, I would completely agree with you. He rolls Stealth, the enemy Perception, and the result of initiative determines who's first and who sees who.
But I'm handling the case where the PC is Unnoticed. So, basically the enemy has absolutely no idea there's a PC there and maybe even no way to detect it. If I roll initiative and an enemy beats the Wizard:
- Either I consider the enemy knows the Wizard's there because reasons and it's spider senses.
- Or the enemy plays his turn without even knowing it is in combat and I basically put the Wizard as first initiative.So to avoid that I'm asking for an initiative check when the Wizard becomes detectable: When he starts casting.
I guess the problem (as I see it) is for the wizard to be unnoticed he has to be avoiding notice.
Unfortunately the rules don't really give enough guidance on when people who aren't hiding are noticed by someone else. All the old rules for distance and hearing through walls/doors are gone. So it's not clear at what point to say an enemy is aware of a creature that isn't using stealth to hide, but in general (in my opinion) if the party is close enough for melee fighters to be involved, its close enough for the enemy to notice you if you're not using stealth.
In my opinion you're basically giving the wizard an extra free exploration activity using your method.
IMO an encounter begins with awareness. If one party is aware and the other isn’t, even if the unaware party “wins” initiative, their action would be to continue to do whatever they were doing before the initiative were rolled. That takes us to the first person with awareness of the other. If that is the caster, then he casts his spell. YMMVThis does lead to the strange outcome (especially for PCs, where it'll be more noticeable) that rolling higher is a worse outcome. My players wouldn't be a huge fan of me saying 'I know you nat-20'd your initiative, but they're sneaking up on you, so you just act normally. Oh, person who nat-1'd? Yeah, the enemies have already acted, so you can spend your actions on relevant things in this combat' - not sure how to resolve this exactly.
You shouldn't have to "act normally" while you are in initiative. Something is up, even if you can't directly sense it. Does PF2 still have a delay action? If not, you can raise your shield, cast a defensive buff spell, or do any of a number of things to prepare for the combat that you are sure is coming. If you cannot plausibly explain what tipped you off that combat is about to start, then -- you were lucky and just happened to be in a good position to fight back when combat started.
The GMG suggests that if you win initiative but fail to spot the enemy you "sense something" but not enough to actually detect anyone. Sort of like in a video game where you make enough noise to make a guard suspicious but not enough to trigger an alert.
Although I'm not sure that's within the scope of the OP's example because it sounds like at no point was the spellcaster even attempting to avoid notice, which is why I think just rolling initiative normally is probably fine for that example. An enemy winning initiative just means they get to react before the Wizard does their thing, which makes sense.
I guess the problem (as I see it) is for the wizard to be unnoticed he has to be avoiding notice.
No. Avoid Notice is an exploration activity that allows you to roll Stealth for initiative. It doesn't allow to sneak past people or to be Undetected.
Unfortunately the rules don't really give enough guidance on when people who aren't hiding are noticed by someone else.
There are tons of cases where you can't detect someone. The Wizard with Fly, Silence and Invisibility can't be detected by a normal human. He doesn't have to roll stealth or anything, he is undetectable.
In my opinion you're basically giving the wizard an extra free exploration activity using your method.
No, I allow the Wizard to be Unnoticed. Either because he can't be detected or because he already rolled Stealth and succeeded. If I ask him to roll Stealth a second time it's not nice. He should roll Stealth only once. And if he is undetectable, the question is never raised. The enemy can't perceive him before he starts casting. So unless you bring spider senses, you have to wait for the spellcasting to start.
|
|
Something is up, even if you can't directly sense it.
IMO, and each to their own, but that’s ludicrous. Either you are aware of your enemy or you aren’t. If you are unaware of them, you would not suddenly and for no reason draw your sword, raise your shield, cast a spell, or anything else unless that is what you were already doing during exploration mode. Spider-sense or whatever you want to call it IS awareness. If you are avoiding notice with a successful stealth check then the thing to which you avoided notice should not get to prepare for you just because it rolled higher on initiative. Unless we are going to redefine what initiative represents. If my GM regularly allowed my enemy to act like it was aware of me despite not actually detected my presence, I wouldn’t be playing with them for very long. That’s just not a style I would enjoy, especially if the “bad guys” get to ambush me without my ability to sense them despite no success towards it. YMMV
Lets not forget that an invisible, silent, flying wizard is detectable. While the wizard usually is unnoticed by most standard humanoids, any creature with a precise sense of smell/scent can detect the wizard.
So that ivisible silent flying wizard can be detected by perception. Maybe it's the bat guano he's getting out to cast fireball.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lets not forget that an invisible, silent, flying wizard is detectable. While the wizard usually is unnoticed by most standard humanoids, any creature with a precise sense of smell/scent can detect the wizard.
So that invisible silent flying wizard can be detected by perception. Maybe it's the bat guano he's getting out to cast fireball.
This. An especially pungent wizard (who has time to bathe when you are studying the arcane underpinnings of the universe?) absolutely could be noticed even if silent and invisible--although using technical terminology, they would not actually be detected, merely noticed but Undetected. Which is a perfect example of a scenario where a foe has sneaked into your midst undetected but you 'notice' something with a high enough Perception initiative to be wary of potential danger.
Worth noting another way the wizard might be detected is by touch. Negate Aroma can rid the Wizard of the former problem, but I would not go so far as to suggest the wizard is completely impossible to notice. It remains entirely possible that the wizard brushes up against foliage or knocks over some rocks while flying about the area.
That said, for the cost of this many spells (including needing to multiclass to obtain at least one of them as Silence is not an Arcane spell) I may conceded that, at least to humans, this wizard is nearly completely undetectable... albeit not entirely unnoticeable, which is kind of more to the point.
If we're being clear, in the rather unusual case that you have rolled high enough Stealth to beat all opponents' Perception DCs but not high enough to act before them in combat, allowing a perceptive foe to notice 'something' amiss and begin Seeking or drawing weapons does not break anything. If you want to get into the weeds, there are a myriad of possible tells a creature might react to without knowing even the location or identity of their attackers. Perhaps they noticed a glint of light where a glint of light would not be had there not been a naked blade nearby. Perhaps a bird flew away suddenly. Perhaps a scattering of pebbles are dislodged. Perhaps the attacker eats onions and doesn't bathe frequently. Maybe there is a sound of creaking leather too faint to pinpoint.
... a drop of sweat, taking the breath (after silence ended) to speak the syllables of the spell, ...
Fundamentally, this question doesn't appear relevant to casting spells but to initiating combat or what initiates combat.
If you're not initiating combat, initiative isn't needed unless the action taken gives enemies the chance to detect you. So in this example, if the wizard wants to cast haste as a pre-buff, that's fine. If you want to cast slow on the enemies, that is no different from shooting them with an arrow. It calls for initiative.
If the wizard wanted to cast on the enemies first but lost initiative to their enemies, that's how the system works. Get better at stealth if you want to get the drop on people, or ask to use Arcana for initiative as was mentioned above. It wouldn't be fair to cast your spell and eliminate the potential for their Perception to detect you (a Legendary Perceptionist might suspect for example the presence of an invis/silenced caster by the air they moved as they flew in, who knows? But the initiative system gives them a chance.)
If the wizard wanted to cast on the enemies first, but their party won initiative and charged in before they could cast, that's been mentioned above, too. That's poor cooperation. It's unfair from a player perspective, but it's fair from a rules perspective. The wizard starts casting. The fast barbarian decides that's their cue and charges in (winning initiative) first.
One more note, acting ahead of folks' initiative is the Situation-Trigger-Scenario for several class abilities and feats. I think this is why there is no such thing in P2 as the surprise round. Like many rules, that one was hard for me to change my gameplay and accept, but once you realize a lot of abilities are built on that dynamic, it makes sense.
I guess the problem (as I see it) is for the wizard to be unnoticed he has to be avoiding notice.No. Avoid Notice is an exploration activity that allows you to roll Stealth for initiative. It doesn't allow to sneak past people or to be Undetected.
Unfortunately the rules don't really give enough guidance on when people who aren't hiding are noticed by someone else.There are tons of cases where you can't detect someone. The Wizard with Fly, Silence and Invisibility can't be detected by a normal human. He doesn't have to roll stealth or anything, he is undetectable.
In my opinion you're basically giving the wizard an extra free exploration activity using your method.No, I allow the Wizard to be Unnoticed. Either because he can't be detected or because he already rolled Stealth and succeeded. If I ask him to roll Stealth a second time it's not nice. He should roll Stealth only once. And if he is undetectable, the question is never raised. The enemy can't perceive him before he starts casting. So unless you bring spider senses, you have to wait for the spellcasting to start.
Okay, we can't even begin to agree on some basic fundamental concepts of the game here.
If you don't think that "Avoid Notice" is the activity you need to be taking in exploration mode to potentially avoid a combat encounter then I simply don't know how to respond.
No other exploration activities are going to do it. If you want to sneak around, or sneak up on someone, or get the drop on someone your using avoid notice. It's as simple as that to me.
If your wizard isn't using avoid notice, they're getting noticed.
And yes, that includes your flying, silent, invisible wizard. No stealth means "detected". They may not know precisely where, but they'll be aware "something in nearby".
It's the difference between the perception states of "Unaware" and "Undetected". Undetected doesn't mean the enemies don't know about you, it means they can't tell which 5ft square you're in.
Okay, we can't even begin to agree on some basic fundamental concepts of the game here.
Well, maybe we should drop it, then. I don't want to end up in a circular discussion. It looks like we have very different visions on how to handle this case. And I don't think any of us is not following the rules.
I think you're right.
Let's agree to disagree, agreeably.
I will point out that the spider sense doesn't need to just be a spider sense. It is entirely possible to hear the sound of movement but not know precisely where the sound came from, for example.
An especially pungent wizard (who has time to bathe when you are studying the arcane underpinnings of the universe?) absolutely could be noticed even if silent and invisible...
This isn't going to be an issue for any spellcaster possessing prestidigitation unless, for whatever reason, they made the choice to be pungent. That one common spell obviates the need for bathing or other hygiene practices and ensures that the caster is always immaculately clean.
There'd be nothing left to smell, but the wizard's natural pheromones.
I will point out that the spider sense doesn't need to just be a spider sense. It is entirely possible to hear the sound of movement but not know precisely where the sound came from, for example.
Sound of movement? Even an old woman's creaky old bones are inaudible to all be the most sensitive ears (which are well outside the human hearing range). Any sound "from movement" that you may be hearing isn't from movement itself, but from something colliding or rubbing against something else. Things like the layered fabric of a person's clothing rubbing against one another, or the patter of feet upon the floor, the pop of one joint against another, or the sound of one current of air/water moving against another. Movement alone is rarely enough to produce noticeable sound.
I will point out that the spider sense doesn't need to just be a spider sense. It is entirely possible to hear the sound of movement but not know precisely where the sound came from, for example.
Spider sense is the sense of danger. It activates when someone rolls initiative. Yes, you can find justification to spider sense, but you won't find one always and it doesn't matter anyway as the player knows it's the initiative roll that gave him away.
|
|
It is entirely possible to hear the sound of movement but not know precisely where the sound came from, for example.
Yes, we call that awareness. It fits perfectly within the stealth rules. If you hear that sound it means that either the person is not trying to be quiet or failed in their attempt. If they succeeded, you wouldn't hear that sound and they get to act first. Its the fundamental concept of stealth.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is entirely possible to hear the sound of movement but not know precisely where the sound came from, for example.Yes, we call that awareness. It fits perfectly within the stealth rules. If you hear that sound it means that either the person is not trying to be quiet or failed in their attempt. If they succeeded, you wouldn't hear that sound and they get to act first. Its the fundamental concept of stealth.
This is not an accurate description of how stealth works in 2e. In both cases, if they are not trying to be quiet or if they have failed in their attempt, the foe is Hidden (provided you can't also directly see them in the case of no cover or crit failed Sneak). This means that you do have enough audio information to pinpoint their location.
Captain Morgan was talking about a sound that is low or nonspecific enough to give away that there is something moving in the area without being able to tell precisely where it came from. In other words, the creature remains Undetected (as in the case of a successful Stealth check) but a fast reacting target may notice this sound with just enough time to react as their foes are incoming. This is rather explicitly the case for the GMG's guidelines.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Either you are aware of your enemy or you aren’t.
You can call it ludicrous but binary stealth is definitely not how PF2 is intended to function.
Either you are aware of your enemy or you aren’t.You can call it ludicrous but binary stealth is definitely not how PF2 is intended to function.
Quadinary stealth then?
Since there are four stages:
1. Unnoticed
2. Undetected
3. Hidden
4. Observed
;P
I mean, technically you are either aware of your enemy or not, but the term 'awareness' is not formally defined anywhere and the actual mechanics are rather deeper than that. Instead, as Ravingdork suggests, there are four stages of stealth. The latter three are explicit results of your Avoid Notice (Sneak) roll; Success (Undetected), Failure (Hidden), Crit Fail (Observed), and the former is a less mechanically rigorous judgment call based on whether a) you are Undetected, and b) your presence in the area is not even suspected.
The contention seems to lie in whether it's possible you can be noticed (and therefore lose the 'Unnoticed' tag) without being directly detected (i.e. while remaining Undetected). The text for vague senses do make explicit that this is possible, so the question then becomes whether it is likely in any given scenario.
For the rather uncommon case (16.5% at best to my math, significantly decreasing the more variables there are to consider) that you come upon an enemy undetected but they roll higher initiative, the GMG offers the solution that yes, it is likely enough that your especially alert foe takes a round of Seek actions to determine if and where there is actually anyone hiding out there. If they fail to detect you before your turn, you may still ambush them as normal (albeit their guard is now up for the purpose of surprise strike and similar abilities) or you may try to back out of the encounter and try again once their guard is down.
The rules of the GMG are not exactly speaking about spider sense, they handle a very rare case (due in my opinion to a bug in the rules) that should be so rare that we hardly care (a whole party sneaking and succeeding at their Stealth check against a monster who still beat all of them in initiative).
An example of spider sense would be:
I sneak into a room and succeed at the Stealth check against the monster Perception DC. I tell the DM I want to attack the monster, he asks me to roll Stealth and the monster rolls Perception and beat me to it. Then, when my turn comes, I step.
So, I've successfully stealthed and then stepped, per the rules I should be Unnoticed. Still, I'm not. Why? What gave me away? Rolling initiative...
It's what I call spider sense, when the monster detects the initiative roll, the thought of attacking it. The DM can come up with whatever justification he wants, I know it's my initiative roll that gave me away as I would still be Unnoticed without it.
What I wonder now is what the Wizard should have done to be sure that they would act first.
Insofar as I'm aware, there's no way to do this other than to be far away from any potential encounters (in this case, far enough away that there was no chance of hearing her spell cast). I even allowed her to take this option, changing her marching order to the back of the line (essentially putting her in the previous room) and THEN casting the spell, but she said "never mind" and cast the spell from her current position anyways.
|
|
Actually, I think it goes to the second Stealth check mentioned in the description of Avoid Notice : once someone has decided the encounter is going to take place (the Wizard in this case), PCs try their second Stealth check (for Initiative), while NPCs also roll for Initiative (usually with Perception) and everyone follows the results. If the Wizard is stealthy enough, she gets the drop on the NPCs.
The rules of the GMG are not exactly speaking about spider sense, they handle a very rare case (due in my opinion to a bug in the rules) that should be so rare that we hardly care (a whole party sneaking and succeeding at their Stealth check against a monster who still beat all of them in initiative).
An example of spider sense would be:
I sneak into a room and succeed at the Stealth check against the monster Perception DC. I tell the DM I want to attack the monster, he asks me to roll Stealth and the monster rolls Perception and beat me to it. Then, when my turn comes, I step.
So, I've successfully stealthed and then stepped, per the rules I should be Unnoticed. Still, I'm not. Why? What gave me away? Rolling initiative...It's what I call spider sense, when the monster detects the initiative roll, the thought of attacking it. The DM can come up with whatever justification he wants, I know it's my initiative roll that gave me away as I would still be Unnoticed without it.
In the case of a single wizard or anything attempting to get the drop on the foe, you are describing an entire party (of one) beating the foe's Perception while that foe is beating your initiative. If there were any other party members present who hadn't succeeded on Stealth, then it would be obvious what the foe is doing when they roll highest initiative. The only difference in these two scenarios is how many party members we are imagining to be present at the start of the encounter.
In any case, I don't think the GMG guidelines are legally binding, so if it just works better for your table to penalize a creature who rolled highest initiative but has no readily noticeable foes (including when this happens in the party's benefit) by forcing that creature to either delay or waste their round doing nothing until an ambusher chooses to reveal itself, that's entirely up to your group.
I still say rolling the skill check is the best way. Want to ambush, Stealth. Remember, the enemy's initiative roll is Perception. Your Stealth is two and their roll is twenty? Looks like they know you're there. Yours is twenty and theirs is two? Time for them to save versus ambush.
This would probably be a party roll too. Although it is funny when the barbarian makes the Stealth roll and the rogue doesn't.
I don't see how this is unfair. Frustrating when you've rolled a string of ones for Perception, but not unfair.
In any case, I don't think the GMG guidelines are legally binding, so if it just works better for your table to penalize a creature who rolled highest initiative but has no readily noticeable foes (including when this happens in the party's benefit) by forcing that creature to either delay or waste their round doing nothing until an ambusher chooses to reveal itself, that's entirely up to your group.
That's not what I do either. As TwilightKnight said, there is no point in rolling initiative when only one side is aware of the other. So, when the player tells me he wants to attack the monster, I answer "Go on!". Wanting to attack someone doesn't trigger initiative. But when he starts casting his Fireball, I stop him. Because the monster is now aware of him, I roll initiative. The player can roll Perception, Stealth or Arcana (because he is in the middle of casting a spell) and the fight starts with awareness from both sides, so no need for spider senses or giving the caster an undue advantage. And when the caster turns come, I allow him to cancel his Fireball without consequences (including spell slot expansion) because he started to cast for just a split second before realizing it was a bad idea.
In my opinion, it works better than all spider senses shenanigans. Because in the example above the GM can find a justification for spider senses, but if the caster is truly undetectable (like invisible and 500 feet away from his target), it becomes way to clear that there are spider senses involved.
|
|
I think being Invisible and 500 ft away would be enough to give a huge penalty to the Initiative/Perception check of the target that the caster will act first.
The encounter starts when one side decides to interact with the other IMO.
That is when I put the Initiative checks,because whatever the interaction is, it can be detected. Now special circumstances might make it extremely difficult to detect, but that is what the penalties to Perception are for.
I do not see anything about Spider sense there.
In fact it is the very reason why I prefer PF2 initiative being based on Perception than PF1 initiative coming out of pure reflexes. In PF1, I once ended up being first to act without having perceived anything, and thus could not do anything before the ambush started. Which is mighty frustrating.
Way I read PF2 rules, if I act first through my great Perception roll, it is because I did perceive something, to which I can react.
Wanting to attack someone doesn't trigger initiative.
I believe you may be in error, in this assessment, at least by RAW:
Transitioning from exploration to an encounter usually involves rolling for initiative. Call for initiative once a trap is triggered, as soon as two opposing groups come into contact, or when a creature on one side decides to take action against the other.
Interpretation may vary, and please, do as you like at your own table, however I believe there is rather solid evidence that wanting, or at the very least, deciding to attack someone, or otherwise take action even if it's not a direct attack, does indeed warrant an initiative roll.
That said, since our example seems to have moved back from the invisible wizard entering or standing outside a room and deciding to attack to one where the wizard now stands approximately 500' away, I have to note that I believe this is a good example where the normal method of determining awareness seems to break down. In the case that a combat is initiated from quite so far away, it's possible I might see fit to allow the offending party to unleash one spell upon their foes as the act which triggers the initiative roll--or, at the very least, agree that it is fair that any foes who would have acted before them, could not possibly foresee the attack coming unless the party happened to be standing on an open field and the victims had posted sentries or lookouts.
This seems like a reasonable scenario to ask the GM to make a judgement call as not terribly many of the combats I've played have begun with quite such an obvious advantage in range and awareness on one party (only one in the last two years, that I currently recall).