Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
After a TPK at the hermitage, everyone except the bard player opted to make new characters. More information on those circumstances can be found in the Obituary thread.
Circus act "team B" (aasimar human cleric, catfolk champion, hobgoblin alchemist [temporary, soon to be replaced by the old bard], kobold sorcerer, and tengu swashbuckler) have now shown up to the hermitage to rescue their companions. The players have made it pretty clear that they don't care about the leader of the hermits or the mayor's wishes. They're there to rescue their own.
Well, they found and slew several undead members of their circus, found one that had been chopped up into stew, and managed to rescue the nearly dead bard who had been captured and tortured. Now that they've discovered everyone's fate and have rescued the sole survivor, their number one priority is getting him out of Dodge.
Their nerves are seriously frayed by having experienced two TPKs in the same module. If it happens a third time, they've made it quite clear that's the end of the campaign. In any case, they have not yet found the McGuffin that will eventually lead them to the Erran tower and I fear that once they get to town, they're not going to want to go back to the hermitage.
What are some plausible ideas for getting them back on track, should they in fact decide not to return to the hermitage?
Maybe small consolation now that the party has always been generated but still, a good lesson for others to always remember:
The games master needs to actively make sure the party members are compatible with the story.
That is, if you want to run Extinction Curse without extensive remodeling, you need characters that can be motivated by "the ugly smelly troglodytes are here to invade our world and steal its lifegiving orbs".
Like it or not, that is essentially the pitch that lets you run the AP on the tracks provided.
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So, maybe this is too late for you Ravingdork, but I would totally have created rumors that their fallen friends were killed by strangely odorous humanoids. Remember, the hermitage and even Nemmia is essentially just a sidetrack that allows the heroes to stumble upon the Xulgath plans for the Aeon Towers. Nemmia --> Harlock -> The "Priestess" (Balenni)... it's all just breadcrumbs to the real start of the story, "Chapter 4, Xulgaths in the Tower". Then the story briefly sidetracks again (levels 5 and 8) before focusing wholly on the main story.
Since the party members care for the circus but not the town or the hermitage I'd make it clear its the Xulgaths that use dark magic and are responsible for these undead circus members. The town isn't important, the hermitage isn't important. The Xulgaths and their plans are.
Again, I must stress the whole campaign hinges on classic "hero behavior", namely to put your lives at risk for some nebulous threat to all mankind. I specifically mean that heroes can't JUST feel obligated to their circus, because the circus theme is after all only a secondary theme here, a diversion to provide a bit of enjoyment and roleplaying opportunities.
It isn't the main dish. The primary theme is and remains the xulgath threat. To enjoy Extinction Curse it really really helps if you can be motivated by revenge/disgust/whatever towards Xulgath.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Yeah, pretty much what Zapp said. This adventure does suffer a bit for trying to have its cake and eat it too, I think. It wants to do something different with the circus theme and encourages non-traditional PCs, but also uses a very traditional quest hook structure and pretty intense difficulty and danger.
One motivation angle that works especially well here is glory. People don't perform in the circus if they don't want to be praised for their talents. Still needs player buy in, but at least isn't alignment restricted.
That said, RD, your issue is probably more about player buy in than character buy in. The latter flows from the former. Your players have expressed a desire for an easier game. Maybe just try adding the weak template to all the enemies. That will also make this feel less suicidal to their characters.
Wowsers! That's really tough. Well, what the others said makes a lot of sense. I've read the obituaries and one of them, the abjurer... Lifted the bar that was blocking the door? Huh?
Can I suggest something a little more, hmmm, direct? Give your players some responsibility. Any time I run a campaign, pre-made or not, I make sure to let my players know that they are the ones responsible for following the premise of the story. That it's obviously okay to deviate and explore etc etc, but ultimately if we are playing a campaign whose premise is, uuuh, I dunno... To be andoranian corsairs in the inner sea, then that their characters shouldn't suddenly go make a trip to Brevoy.
Anyways, I know this is not what you're asking but I'd especially consider what Captain Morgan has said, too. This might be a player issue rather than a character issue. By the looks of your obituary post you guys have talked already, but... I dunno. How are you feeling about the campaign? Well, not necessarily about the AP itself but about player's moods and group dynamics. Info on that might help us formulate more answers!
They could be Circus Performers who head to the hermitage to figure out what happened to the performers that disappeared. Once they discover the horror occurring up there, they will want to avenge their fallen circus performers and continue on the quest to honor those that fell.
That's a tough one. Maybe hint about Balennis involvement somehow. Maybe your players can find "another one" of Nemmias camps with a journal or something like that (if they haven't found both the one in the forest and the one in the barn). This can give hints about Balennis role in the corruption and that she left "for some tower towards (direction of aeon tower)".
Revenge can be a decent motivator and Balennis corruption of Nemmia --> Nemmia murdering Myron in chpt 1 and subsequently hermitage demon corruption/infestation --> circus members were killed at hermitage --> It's all that Balennis fault we lost our people from the circus.
However, I don't know how your players feel about the idea of going to the tower since it's very clearly another dungeoncrawl, and they might think it's as hard as the hermitage (which imo is the most difficult chapter in the entire book, and the I don't think the corrupted trainers should have been lvl 2 creatures with their damage output). But that is a discussion you have to have with your players.
If you manage to get them to go and deal with the tower, but your players are still nervous about combat, Captain Morgans advice is good, about adding the weak template to creatures (or potentially cut some of the creatures in a encounter unless you play with XP instead of milestones).
The most important I would say is to keep an eye on the encounter threat-level and I would advice against adding encounters together unless the book says so (even if it would make more sense to add them together). As you mentioned in the obituary you added one of the wrecker demons to the Horba encounter which bumps that from moderate to near extreme threat level for a 4 PC party, and depending on who you add together that can easily happen again in some places in the tower.
I wish you and your players the best of luck. :)
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Travelling Sasha wrote: Wowsers! That's really tough. Well, what the others said makes a lot of sense. I've read the obituaries and one of them, the abjurer... Lifted the bar that was blocking the door? Huh? Yeah, we blame a lack of focus stemming from the game going late and people being tired. Not only did it not make sense to do that (other than to maybe let the goblin in), no one so much as attempted to warn or stop her.
Travelling Sasha wrote: Can I suggest something a little more, hmmm, direct? Give your players some responsibility. Any time I run a campaign, pre-made or not, I make sure to let my players know that they are the ones responsible for following the premise of the story. That it's obviously okay to deviate and explore etc etc, but ultimately if we are playing a campaign whose premise is, uuuh, I dunno... To be andoranian corsairs in the inner sea, then that their characters shouldn't suddenly go make a trip to Brevoy. The marketing for the adventure path billed it as a circus-themed adventure, not an endless dungeon crawl. That's also how I sold them on the idea and generated excitement for it because I too was mislead.
Is it really so odd that they want to get out of the dungeon and do more circus stuff than the module seems to allow for?
Travelling Sasha wrote: How are you feeling about the campaign? Well, not necessarily about the AP itself but about player's moods and group dynamics. Info on that might help us formulate more answers! Well, not great. I've got one player sowing dissension and no one seems terribly happy about the hermitage arc. (They've just been stuck in the same area for too long without any reward to show for it.)
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote: The marketing for the adventure path billed it as a circus-themed adventure, not an endless dungeon crawl. That's also how I sold them on the idea and generated excitement for it because I too was mislead.
Is it really so odd that they want to get out of the dungeon and do more circus stuff than the module seems to allow for?
Well, not great. I've got one player sowing dissension and no one seems terribly happy about the hermitage arc. (They've just been stuck in the same area for too long without any reward to show for it.)
I think I got lucky; I cut the whole tombs part from the Hermitage because I couldn't even figure out what the point was. The Hermitage, overall, took 2.5-3 sessions to get through (which was still too long); by the third session, I had at least one player already expressing frustration. I feel like the ending, where I basically did the Harlock's intro to Chapter 4, helped pick up the overall mood; tying the setting/mood material from the beginning (the dying crops, dust bowl feel along with Nemmia's attack) to something big and magical (the Aeon Tower) gave some direction to everything.
Now I'm looking at Chapter 4 now and looking at how I can cut out the majority of the tower/dungeon and add more non-dungeon content. We have at least one more circus show to do in Abberton, so there's that.
profounddark wrote: I think I got lucky; I cut the whole tombs part from the Hermitage because I couldn't even figure out what the point was. I think the point of all these "pointless" encounters is to make sure the PC's earn enough XP (or at least very close) to gain a level, and maybe the tombs was to mix things up between demons and corrupted retainers?
Overall I agree that it felt pretty pointless. If you're going with milestones it IS pointless, especially since their "loot" is just robbing the hermitage crypt which feels weird if your team is all good-aligned. In general the sheer amount of encounters per dungeon with 3/4 chapters of the entire book being dungeons, it's just tiresome if your players aren't into that (I've cut so many encounters already or made the "enemies" more willing to talk and/or make deals with the PC's).
I think the writers made a mistake having so much of the book be dungeon crawls, especially since the premise with the circus doesn't evoke the idea of dungeon crawls. I would have liked more performance battles or just more social encounters which there at least was some of in chapter 2.
Ravingdork wrote: The marketing for the adventure path billed it as a circus-themed adventure, not an endless dungeon crawl. That's also how I sold them on the idea and generated excitement for it because I too was mislead.
Is it really so odd that they want to get out of the dungeon and do more circus stuff than the module seems to allow for?
I would observe you might be better served with a city-based adventure, where there are fewer monster bash dungeons, and much more opportunities for non-violent interaction (what the kids call the "social" pillar ;)
In that vein, one crazy idea is to run the Agents of Edgewatch campaign instead (with circus-themed heroes)!
You would solve many things this way:
- Absalom is the perfect place for a circus, and can easily accommodate even a high-level circus: you would never run out of opportunities to hold circus shows
- While I'm sure it isn't exactly as easy as the AoE Player's Guide makes it out to be when it states
"Fortunately, it is a
relatively simple matter to remove the law enforcement
themes completely from this Adventure Path without
altering the story at its core."
...it still does say that.
- Actually, the way circus heroes can't hide behind the law might actually increase roleplaying opportunities (perhaps solving a lot of the hoolabaloo as regards law enforcement and killing and looting perpetrators)
- And what better motivation for circus folks is there than to save the biggest festival on earth?
As I said, a crazy idea that I'm just now coming up with, but still? :-)
"Simply" dump the EC scenarios and promptly have the circus travel to the capital, where they get involved in whatever scenario is appropriate for your party level.
Well, it might not be as easy to do, but it sure was easy to suggest ;-)
Ventura wrote: profounddark wrote: I think I got lucky; I cut the whole tombs part from the Hermitage because I couldn't even figure out what the point was. I think the point of all these "pointless" encounters is to make sure the PC's earn enough XP (or at least very close) to gain a level, and maybe the tombs was to mix things up between demons and corrupted retainers?
Overall I agree that it felt pretty pointless. If you're going with milestones it IS pointless, especially since their "loot" is just robbing the hermitage crypt which feels weird if your team is all good-aligned. As if we don't know that combat is meant as its own reward?
That is, Paizo APs are clearly written for the type of player who doesn't think too hard as long as there's another critter waiting to be killed.
And to its defense, Pathfinder 2 *does* provide fun challenging (hard even) combat encounters!
Just cautiously suggesting that if combat is "pointless" maybe just maybe PF2 isn't the right game for you...?
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
It's not *combat* that I have a problem with. It's more the notions that (a) entering the tomb doesn't relate to the stated goal of rescuing the Mayor or Harlock; (b) exploring the tomb doesn't seem to advance any goal or story; (c) removing the tomb has no impact on the rest of the Hermitage; and (d) the "treasures" collected in that section amount to grave-robbing.
From a narrative perspective, the only reason the PCs would go INTO the tomb is because the two bumbling Corrupted Retainers (Ebbern and Faldinor) trick them into believing Harlock is in there. It's worth pointing out that the adventure text makes it clear that their "deception" is extremely poor and that the PCs are unlikely to "fall for it." Yet, even if they DO enter the tomb, the only way out is the way they came. The solution to entering the tomb is "exit from the way you came in." There is no key or secret escape further in the tombs.
And then there's the grave-robbing... My players had already expressed concern that a fair amount of the treasures in Chapter 2 were essentially stolen. Now, in some cases, the items were from people who had died (Odlin's Orchard, Lindell Barn), so it's easier to justify. But, the Hawfton Mill? Simple burglary. The Crypt at the Goldenlaws Church? Grave-robbing. For my players, these were not acceptable sources of treasure, and I agree. So when I looked at the tombs, I realized we'd have the same concern. Which means that even as a source of treasure, the tomb didn't really work for me or my group.
To wit, the tombs were pointless. Just ghouls and grave-robbing.
I would suggest that either the entire Hermitage would have been better served by removing the tomb, enlarging the interior of the Hermitage, and having battles with the corrupted hermits and their minions. Even if the only purpose would be, "because they're in the way to the place we need to go" would have been thematically more engaging than the ghouls in the tombs.
Now, if your argument is that Pathfinder APs are just for killing monsters without purpose, I'm going to hard disagree. Combat is certainly important, but at least with PF2 adventures, there's a fair effort to justify why the PCs go to certain places and fight certain monsters.
Not sure what to say.
That catacomb part is a small part of a larger structure, and not all the parts need to have "purpose". In fact, having the players realize a certain path only took them down a risky optional road has value in itself.
The alternative is that everything runs on a railroad - the players can't take wrong turns, since everything always "relate to the stated goal".
And that's even before I return to my earlier argument, which I honestly has greater overall applicability.
Not sure if this is a good spot to post but it sort of comes off a similar situation.
However all the players survived so far in the hermitage. They have taken a long rest in F2 (set it up as a base camp). They are still yet to visit the following rooms (and they wish to clear out the corruption still):
F18 (any/all of them), F15, F22-F25 (animal pens).
Short story:
They got into the librarians cell (via the secret door) and found the key. They went to the the Main temple and got in using the key. Dispatched Threndel, lizards and Enkrisha quickly.
Now every corrupted priest they run into, they have been screaming your master is dead. I rolled a 3 d20's below 5 for Horba (who they eventually killed), Lessa and Bak (the party got fully involved in the argument and then blocked the door before leaving and are yet to return-see problem below).
As they have not been looting places for treasure, they tend to have poor finances (so not great weapons). I have been supplementing this via allowing them to run more circus performances (they ran a second performance already). I let them leave the treasure and allow them to run another circus which generally makes up for the lost materials by them respecting people (eg. not looting the Ringmasters caravan). Please note the party wish to run Circus performances. Basically the greater the heroic act they do the better the advertisement (ie I give them 1 anticipation for things like rescuing the mayor and fixing him up while still in combat, in other words the general public must witness their skills, but they still generally have 5 to 6 days between performances)
Problem: The Lessa and Bak argument is not resolved and I am trying to figure out how an argument that started about Harlock's room ended up about Circuses, could lead them to murdering the party. The party has convinced them they should join the circus as Gozreh clerics (extremely high deception and diplomacy here, 3 rolls of natural 20 with various party members).
So Lessa and Bak said they would wait for the party to return with Harlock (as they don't believe Threndel, Yoril and Enkrisha are dead). The party believe Lessa and Bak are trying to kidnap Harlock. This is why they killed Horba. How do I make them surrender without the party becoming suspicious that they will not hurt Harlock? Or must I just outright go for murder when there is no reason?
Please note: Celestial Menagery and Xulgarth Extremists (I made this up so that I can red herring them back on path, when they go to far AWOL from the adventure) are better then them according to Bak.
They are still trying to find the Sheriff of Abberton as they found her hat but failed to connect the dots and one of them actively wears the hat still.
Party makeup: Bard, Cleric (warpriest), Swashbuckler and Ranger.
This could lead to a TPK, when they technically have finished most what is needed to be done at the Hermitage. I had Harlock ask them to help finish removing the corrupted animals from the Hermitage. I had Harlock say not priests - Harlock told them he could convince them to come around, but the party refuse to go back to Harlock who is currently resting and waiting for them to come back.
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