As the pandemic and lock downs continue, and my players and I are forced into using virtual tabletops (VTTs) for our roleplaying experience, I've noticed a distinctive decrease in the amount of attention they give to the game, and worse, the amount of respect I'm given as the GM.
What are some tips and tricks, life hacks, or just some good old fashioned advice for keeping players interested, engaged, and in line while roleplaying in VTT?
TLDR: My longtime, awesome players have become total sh1ts in VTT.
Players aren't paying attention and are distracted.
"It's your turn Bueler. ...Bueler? Are you there Bueler? Hello? I said it's your turn." Then when the player finally takes their turn, they're like, "hold on, let me decide what I want to do." *2+ minutes of everyone waiting in painful silence silence* "I move here here and attack the (only) enemy." Or "One moment, I need to look up a rule/ability." *2+ minutes of everyone waiting in painful silence silence* It's become increasingly clear to me that players aren't paying attention or are distracted. They clearly aren't determining the course of their turn in advance while waiting on their turn. They clearly don't know how all of their own character abilities or basic rules work either. I suspect they are distracted by families video games or numerous other things outside the VTT environment.
Players aren't showing the GM the respect they would in real life.
I've made a number of rulings to facilitate better play and to get the players accustomed to certain rules. For example, after a long while of people forgetting to select their tokens while rolling initiative and having to manually correct the initiative tallies as a result, I ruled that if your forgot to select your token while rolling initiative, you would have to roll again, and that your tally would not be counted unless your token was selected. In the second game after implementation, I literally heard one player telling another player "just keep your original roll and change the initiative value." I've also had a player straight up tell me "I'm not playing by that rule" when I made another ruling.
Another example was when a paladin used his lay on hands and wanted to refocus so that he would have it ready. I told him that he was in a dangerous environment (in the middle of an enemy stronghold) and that he could refocus (as I consider opposing evil to be part of the "or do service toward [Iomedae's] causes" clause of the champion's Devotion Spells ability) but that there was a chance it could be interrupted if a wondering patrol happened upon him or something distracting like that. He said "Fine, then I'll leave the stronghold, refocus, and come back tomorrow." I reminded him that abandoning his companions in a time of need was anathema for him and that there would likely be consequences (there were captured NPCs AND PCs the party was trying to rescue, to say nothing of his companions who were hoping to continue onward with the quest rather than go back to town after one fight and one lay on hands). He threw a fit, claiming that I was "being an unreasonable jerk who wouldn't let him take advantage of his character abilities and that he didn't want to play the champion anymore in that case." All the while I'm like "Hey man, you chose your class deity and anathema, I'm just reminding you of that, and of what the rules say; if it's not what you hoped for, and don't want to play it anymore, that's fine." At least one other player was like "Alright fellas, let's calm down and get back to the game." Apparently this all stemmed from a fundamental misunderstanding of his abilities. He was under the impression that he had to refocus IMMEDITELY after using his focus point, or he would lose it for the whole day. Once we got that straightened out, things calmed down significantly and the game moved on.
Finally, while discussing scheduling for the next game, I literally had one player tell me "A new video game I'm excited about is being released that day, so while the rest of you are roleplaying, just be aware that I'm going to be playing that game TOO. Though the date worked for everyone else, we were forced to reschedule because there is no way I'm dealing with more of this split attention BS.
Players don't respect other players.
People are constantly talking over one another, making it difficult to understand what's going on. (Then I inevitably get blamed for "not listening.") Or worse, they don't talk at all. They either aren't paying attention, distracted by a side-project unrelated to the VTT, by their family, or something else; or they have stepped away without informing anyone. I'm sure at least two players play other games, one is constantly writing her new book, and two others have constant family issues to deal with.
Players will also openly complain about things during the game, such as an adventure path's perceived bad writing, rather than waiting until after the game or in between games to discuss such things. Though perfectly fine on its own, when done during a session this not only keeps everyone else from playing during the agreed-upon scheduled game time, it sours the mood of everyone present.
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Then, at the end of the game, I'm the one who gets sh1t upon because the game wasn't any fun, took forever to finish going late into the night, and myself and others made numerous mistakes (which made the game take longer) because we were all starting to get tired and cranky.
It's no wonder there are more players than GMs. At least in VTT, they have all the power. If I try and talk things out with them, they're sure to go on the defensive and rage quit or else lay the blame on me somehow. Sure I can kick them out, but then I have no players, there's no game. These are real life friends who, in real life in-person games, get along together quite well. It's the VTT experience that seems to have warped things.
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The VTT experience might have some (likely minor by itself) impact.
The pandemic situation with all the associated stress from the news, and pressure from completely upside-down work relations and family life, is likely the far bigger culprit IMO.
It inevitably affects all your players as well as yourself. Just as it affects us all.
Maybe sharing some videocall where everyone can see every other person's face can help strengthen the links between friends :-)
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So there's two lines of answer to this question in my eyes:
1. You ultimately set your own boundaries for what circumstances you're willing to GM in, so if a player is trying to just overrule you about something like they are in a lot of these, then you just enforce your boundaries and inform them that you are no longer willing to GM for them.
It might seem like a nuclear option, but really, you have to decide what kind of game you're comfortable with. Most of these would have me promptly inform them that I won't be GMing for them if they can't cope with my rules. I've done that, successfully, its also resulted in people leaving, but honestly, them leaving improved the game so...
2. I actually agree that most of these are disrespectful, but in some situations, its possible that we as GMs are being unreasonable, so consider the possibility of being wrong.
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But really, I sympathize, I've had even well-meaning players try to put their foot down and erode my boundaries regarding things like 'double gaming' (between you and me, I have a player or two that are responsible enough to actually do it, but the only reason I make that assessment is that they always know whats going on, are participating, their turns are like lightning, they still manage to run rules reference for me most of the time when someone else has a problem, and they cleared it with me because their ADHD requires something to do with their hands, like run in circles in World of Warcraft.)
I've had other people agree to boundaries in regards to attendance, only to try and take me to task later when they didn't respect those boundaries (I use a frequency metric, you can be missing, and for any reason, and all I really care about is how frequent your attendance was in the first place-- just want a break? sure thing, so long as you normally attend. Have 'real emergencies and important stuff' like 3+ times a month? Look, I don't blame you, but I don't think my game is a good fit for your life right now.)
At the end of the day, these things erode the amount of enjoyment you derive from GMing, and while some people will probably try and pressure you to lighten up, I think its important for you to maintain your boundaries and find players who aren't consistently disrespecting those boundaries.
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In my opinion, VTT is also very different from pen and paper. There's a big cut in roleplay and in out of game discussions (for good or bad).
Sometimes, the conclusion is that your group is not made for VTT. And I think it's more important to keep good relationships with friends than to play regularly. So, I would consider putting the campaign on hold and play with other people in the meantime if I was at your position.
I know that I far prefer pen and paper to VTT, even if VTT has its advantages (mostly the fact that we don't have to gather everyone so you gain transportation time). I only play in VTT because it's that or stop playing (and due to the pandemic, I don't have much to do besides playing).
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Uh, yeah, this kind of behavior is completely unacceptable to people who already played primarily on VTT and would be grounds for getting the boot if you were recruited into the game. Much harder to do that with preexisting friends, I know.
I guess people transitioning from pen and paper games aren't used to the social contracts that come with playing online. Bidi might be right that your group just isn't suited to the format, and you all might be happier if you put the game on hold.
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I won't lie, I've come to look at gaming on VTT as having a lot of similarity to running a PUG on an MMORPG - I tend to do a daily roulette on FF14, and while a lot of the experiences are fine, there are always the occasional one which makes me extremely annoyed. Good example for that is that I tend to run as a tank, and I've found that every now and then I'll stumble across a DPS who wants to take down a large group of enemies, so will charge ahead and pull an entire group. Because I'm running tank, I tend to get a sense of how much the healer can handle and manage the group's pulls accordingly, but telling a DPS player not to do this and let the tank manage the pace of the dungeon, more often than not nowadays, results in the DPS kicking off a round of insults and arguing about it.
To bring this back around to your topic, I do think that a lot of the ability to read one another, and the tone around the table, is lost when we're playing in our own isolation bubble. In my own games I've found some players are very attentive to the game they're playing, while others tend to get very distracted by the things going on around them. I have found that asking everyone to take a 15-minute break twice during a session tends to work well, as they're more pliable to giving the game their attention if they feel they can handle out-of-game stuff during a break.
As for your player's behaviour, I'm really sorry. They're not being fair to you, or to their fellows. Perhaps not being around one another, and having that dehumanising distance, really is souring their experience as well...
I am not sure it is really a table top thing. I think it is just a group thing. Also for the most part I feel every player is supposed to be able to refocus between combats except for VERY rare circumstances. I dont know the specific example though.
Also if someone is not following rules just explain the rule and things should be fine, they probably arent disrespected you they probably just forgot. People forget rules all the time.
There is 100% one issue with VTT in my opinion and that is talking over other players is very easy to happen on accident. Again I doubt it is on purpose or disrespectful. Just takes some getting used to. There are just so many factors that could be an issue like connection, multiple people talking on discord just doesnt work well. Also try to make sure everyone is close to the same volume otherwise the quieter people will be skipped on accident.
The distracted thing is definitely also a problem, I am sure everyone is guilty of it but our group pretty much always tales their turns quickly. Combat is the hardest to stay focused when you have 10+ minutes of nothing to do. Characters with reactions have to pay attention.
Overall VTT are different. There are some pros though, players can look up rules super easy, lots of trivial things (tracking monsters hp/player hp and skills is just harder).
I have played lots of 3-6 player games and largely prefer the 3-4 pc games since the distraction/talking over is less of an issue.
This is not me trying to be mean here: I think your players might just be jerks. I have never run a game in person nor played in one, but everything you've said sounds like things that can be done in meatspace as well?
If your players are, as you say, being mean and aggressive to you online but not in real life... they're probably just looking for an excuse to be mean and aggressive to you when you can't make a rebuttal. Get better friends.
I have never experienced anything like you've described, either as a player or GM online.
The pandemic situation with all the associated stress from the news, and pressure from completely upside-down work relations and family life, is likely the far bigger culprit IMO.
It inevitably affects all your players as well as yourself. Just as it affects us all.
Of that I'm sure there is little doubt.
Maybe sharing some videocall where everyone can see every other person's face can help strengthen the links between friends :-)
Well, that sure is fancy! You city-folk sure have some nice things to take for granted. ;P /jest
The thought has certainly occurred to me. Sadly, that's not going to work for us. We all live out in the boonies of the distant countryside, where internet is too slow to support reliable video to video communication with so many people. Even Discord voice chat with Roll20 cuts out from time to time or has moments where things can get a bit lagged.
They sound really antagonistic, I have just 1 player like that (out of 15) and I dont like playing with him
I have a couple of points
>You might be too hard on the rules. I say, kill them with love. Let them have it in the moment, and discuss it later. If a rule is complicated and the result depends on the GM, I usually give it to the players (The Game is hard enough)
>Never go late. In real life its tolerable, in VTT some players just disconnect themselves.
>I have players who can do 2 games at the same time, some can barely manage one (Worry about those ones)
If anything fails, just stop... and get new players. With real friends is hard, but just take a break, or explain that those arguments tire you up
Talk to your players about how you are feeling. If they don't listen then that is a personality problem that you need to choose how to best deal with outside of roleplaying (even if dealing with it means not playing online with the problem players)
I have no issues with online play and it actually increases focus and roleplaying with my groups. We get down to it and keep a solid pace never breaking from the game until it is over.
In person we joke and have all sorts of out of game conversations and derailments.
Both have their place, the players like both.
I lost dignity in going to a Virtual Tabletop (Roll20 and Discord to be precise) instead of my dining room table in March 2020. That loss is not because of the change of roleplaying medium. Rather, my two daughters joined the game when distance was no longer a factor. I was the kind of dad who crawled around on the floor with my toddlers and told bad dad jokes, so dignity was never part of our relationship. And since my wife and I started them on Dungeons & Dragons in 1993 before the younger daughter could read, they have decades of RPG experience. They created off-the-wall characters, a tailed goblin liberator champion with a velociraptor and a vine leshy fey-blooded sorcerer with Harmlessly Cute ancestry feat.
They grew up polite, so they don't disrespect people.
I won't lie, I've come to look at gaming on VTT as having a lot of similarity to running a PUG on an MMORPG - I tend to do a daily roulette on FF14, and while a lot of the experiences are fine, there are always the occasional one which makes me extremely annoyed. Good example for that is that I tend to run as a tank, and I've found that every now and then I'll stumble across a DPS who wants to take down a large group of enemies, so will charge ahead and pull an entire group. Because I'm running tank, I tend to get a sense of how much the healer can handle and manage the group's pulls accordingly, but telling a DPS player not to do this and let the tank manage the pace of the dungeon, more often than not nowadays, results in the DPS kicking off a round of insults and arguing about it.
The most recent addition to our campaign is a player from the MMORPG Elder Scrolls Online. One of my players, a guild leader in ESO, invited him to the game after he became interested in her stories of our campaign. He fits in fine, possibly because he was accustomed to socializing and coordinating over Discord. My wife hates PUG-ing (Pick-Up Game, meaning playing with randomly selected players) and relies on guild-organized events for dungeons and trials, so we have a stronger social connection to fellow players.
My group ran hybrid table and roll20 for many years. Distractions affect all types of play, but it's amplified online. We had some ground rules to try to establish an environment that was conducive to interaction:
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- You must have a solid, fast internet connection.
- You must have a hands free headset.
- You must have a webcam activated.
If you didn't have those things, you weren't allowed to participate. Those rules helped us stay more focused. We typically didn't have game-killing attention issues, but there is more pressure for the GM to keep everyone engaged. Seeing faces on video is helpful for addressing that in real time. In trying to make our game as close to table top as possible, seeing the faces of the folks you're roleplaying with feels pretty crucial, also.
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It’s only a peek at your players so we don’t really know,them, but what we do know they are kinda jerks. Life is too short to invest time and effort dealing with jerks. Have a conversation with the group. Tell them how you feel and get them to commit to the campaign. The other alternative is to find new players. If you are talking about org play, that’s easy, GM for other people. There are thousands who play online so they are easy to find. Run into a jerk, just ban them from your events. Pretty simple. If this is your “friends” from years of live play, they should be willing to do the right thing. Otherwise, I would find new players.
A fundamental issue is keeping players engaged; I think the respect issues you bring up often stem from engagement -- and I usually feel that worrying about a loss of respect/expecting respect is often a sign that some part of the social contract has already broken down in the group.
In combat, I'd work with people to get more efficient at their turns. When I play, I try to be able to complete my turtn in under a minute, I know my planned order of actions, I have a backup plan in case something unexpected happens, etc. This planning helps keep me engaged when its not my turn, and paying attention to what others are doing. And it also means I'm giving less time for others to choose to tune-out. Even more true as the GM with multiple opponents to control, you need to have done enough prep that you can play them quickly, adapting to the players, but you won't have as much time to plan while other players take their turn as they need your answers/judgments on things. A GM being slow at controlling the opponents, is one of the biggest things that leads to people zoning out.
Outside of combat, as a player, yes it can be tough when you're playing a combat-focused, low CHA character in a talky-section. But you need to find a way to stay engaged. Whether its by the GM throwing other things your way, observations on the room/environment or sometimes just non-verbal/typed roleplay descriptions of what your character is doing, etc. As the GM, online yes its harder to know when you're losing people's attention. try to check back in often -- if you haven't heard someone recently, try to fit something in, however small, to get them back in the moment.
TL;DR;
Work with the players to solve the 'why do people zone out' and hopefully that will address the 'respect' problems.
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My high school days spent playing MMOs actually gave me a lot of tools that I use in VTT (in fact, my first dming experience was on play by post and vtt platforms).
-So first, structure is important, even more in vtt than irl, but thankfully, pathfinder 2e actually has mechanics that do this for you. I'm gonna presume your party already, for the most part, understands that in combat, only the person who's turn it is, and anyone who might have relevant reactions, should be acting. Enforce this same logic to exploration mode. Explicitly enforce a turn order. The only people who should be talking are the player who's turn it is, and maybe someone who says "I aid them!' or offers up a spell or item to provide a bonus. In my table, side chatter must be done through text, or if the people are im the same room, they need to mute their mic.
-Second, know that the interaction with side distractions are actually both more and less harmful on vtt. If your player can read facebook or w/e and still pay attention to the game, it's actually less harmful on vtt because they can do it and no one else is none the wiser. Similarly, players can run music and the like without distracting anyone. That said, the temptation to play another game or for players who can't multitask, vtt is very much hard mode for distractions.
I would set ground rules for what is and isn't okay, and if people arent following them, talk with them out of game. For my table, music is fine, I'd rather people not look at social media, but won't through a stink about it if you do use it as long as you still pay attention in game, and playing any game that isn't like, an idle game or something is a hard no. If you and your players are new to vtt, remember to cut a little slack to start off with; in my experience, the facebook browsing and the like tends to stop once people get used to the setup.
-Third, keep as much of the original experience as you can. I just recently shifted from roll20 to just streaming webcam footage of a map thats set up in my living room and there was instant improvement on player engagement just by seeing minis again. If you trust your players not to cheat, let them roll their real dice instead of a virtual roller; my group really appreciates getting to use their beloved math rocks.
-And lastly, I touched on this earlier, but it bears repeating, be patient and understanding. A lot of people are new to vtt, but ultimately, these people are your friends, so they aren't being jerks just to be jerks. We are kinda programmed as a society to see computers as a tool that helps us multitask and such, and it takes time to unlearn that in the case of vtt. Don't be afraid to bring up behavior that obviously crosses a line (like the playing a new video game while also attending campaign), but just know that a lot of these rude behaviors are just the result of decades of our culture teaching us that computers are efficiency increasing tools, and it takes time to get over that notion for vtt
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Mostly, I agree with the other posters here. Out-of-game stresses this year are through the roof, that's certainly a contributing factor.
Here's what I can add:
I GM 2 games using VTT, and I play in one game. It is a vastly different experience GMing online than it is playing online.
As a GM, in person or online, you have a ton of things to keep tabs on and you can't help but be engaged 100% of the time. I haven't found that to be different when playing online. I do lack the direct feedback of an in-person game (we use video to see each other, which is something like being in the same room, but it's not the same).
As a player, I find it far, far easier to stay engaged when playing in person. Online, my attention starts fracturing around the 2 hour mark, tends to suffer greatly around the 3 hour mark, after which I usually rally, and I can hold it together for another 45 minutes or so, before finally it all crumbles around the 4 hour mark. I don't consider myself to be a "bad player," and I do try to maintain focus. But it's not easy.
On a completely different side, here, I can stay focused for hours on end in an MMORPG. But those are different experiences, they are designed from the ground up to be played virtually. The pacing is customized for that sort of thing, etc. Maybe some people have always approached Pathfinder virtually, but me? It's not what I signed up for. I want to play in person, I enjoy playing in person.
VTT is, to me, better than not playing at all. But it's hardly what I want to be doing. Hey, it's a pandemic, you don't get what you want all the time.
Bottom line, my advice is:
Give your players, whom you say are good friends in person, the benefit of the doubt. Talk with them, explain how things impact you, ask them how things impact them. Ask whether they are having fun. Tell them what makes you NOT have fun. Come up with solutions together. Realistically, we are at, or maybe a little beyond, the midpoint in this pandemic. It will go away, but not overnight. It's still a long haul, so we all need to be creative and empathetic in arriving at solutions for social problems caused by the pandemic.
Enforce this same logic to exploration mode. Explicitly enforce a turn order. The only people who should be talking are the player who's turn it is, and maybe someone who says "I aid them!' or offers up a spell or item to provide a bonus. In my table, side chatter must be done through text, or if the people are im the same room, they need to mute their mic.
I had a GM doing that often and it was pissing me so much I thought about leaving his tables. From my experience, when you ask a player "It's your turn, what do you do?" he will do something. And if he can't do something intelligent, he will do something completely stupid.
Every time this GM was saying we will act in turn, the result was the most nonsensical actions you can imagine, with Barbarians rolling Diplomacy checks, Wizards going first, etc...I've got a few decades of roleplaying game behind me and this stays one of my worst experiences.
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Enforce this same logic to exploration mode. Explicitly enforce a turn order. The only people who should be talking are the player who's turn it is, and maybe someone who says "I aid them!' or offers up a spell or item to provide a bonus. In my table, side chatter must be done through text, or if the people are im the same room, they need to mute their mic.I had a GM doing that often and it was pissing me so much I thought about leaving his tables. From my experience, when you ask a player "It's your turn, what do you do?" he will do something. And if he can't do something intelligent, he will do something completely stupid.
Every time this GM was saying we will act in turn, the result was the most nonsensical actions you can imagine, with Barbarians rolling Diplomacy checks, Wizards going first, etc...
I've got a few decades of roleplaying game behind me and this stays one of my worst experiences.
I left an otherwise superstar group, because the GM kept a turn order outside of combat. I was baffled, and it put me off so badly, I left the group. I hope this isn't a derailment from the thread topic, but I feel strongly against this tactic as well. Let the players work out what to do together naturally. If there's a problem with someone not getting spotlight time and wanting more, that's worth addressing, but turn orders outside of combat should not be the standard for play.
What are some tips and tricks, life hacks, or just some good old fashioned advice for keeping players interested, engaged, and in line while roleplaying in VTT?
My first tip would be to do the best job you can, and stop blaming your players - even (maybe especially) if they deserve blame.
You spent 2/3 of your post griping about your players, allegedly friends, on a public forum. Ask yourself how they would respond if they read that s+@$.
Stay away from "no wonder there's more players than GM" whining. If you don't want to GM any more, just tell them the adventure ends when they recover the Sacred Commode of Callipygia and let someone else take over. Don't post one side of the story, and then wallow in the pity party you've asked to be thrown.
Enforce this same logic to exploration mode. Explicitly enforce a turn order. The only people who should be talking are the player who's turn it is, and maybe someone who says "I aid them!' or offers up a spell or item to provide a bonus. In my table, side chatter must be done through text, or if the people are im the same room, they need to mute their mic.I had a GM doing that often and it was pissing me so much I thought about leaving his tables. From my experience, when you ask a player "It's your turn, what do you do?" he will do something. And if he can't do something intelligent, he will do something completely stupid.
Every time this GM was saying we will act in turn, the result was the most nonsensical actions you can imagine, with Barbarians rolling Diplomacy checks, Wizards going first, etc...
I've got a few decades of roleplaying game behind me and this stays one of my worst experiences.
Same experience here.
Plus, if one of the issues is people paying attention and not getting distracted, enforcing a rule that bars players from participating a majority of the time seems like it'll only compound that.
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Thanks for the help everyone. I've been talking it through with several (eventually all) of my players and we've made some progress towards mutual understanding I think.
I told them (individually) that I wanted to discuss ways we could make our games better. I said I had some ideas on why our games were going poorly lately, but before going into them, that I wanted to start off by asking them to explain, in their own words, any problems they've perceived lately and what they thought could or should be done to resolve them. I'd then listen to what they had to say, we'd work out some possible solutions to their problems together, and then I'd Segway into any other areas I wanted to discuss that weren't already covered. Much of what was said were things that I was expecting, but there were a few interesting new revelations as well. Overall, I think it's going rather well so far.
I did have one player get defensive and begin shouting at me when I brought up the idea of players suggesting when to reward hero points as one possible means of helping me remember to do so. I was told to "stop being a [part of the female anatomy] and that I should just do my [expletive] job as GM and remember them in the first place so they wouldn't all die again. That it's not their fault and that I shouldn't be putting the blame on them." I nearly hung up on him, but I suspected he misconstrued what I had said, and knew that disconnecting in anger would only make matters worse, so I stuck it out, let him have his three-minute vent session, then when he was calmer, continued talking to him calmly about how I intended to do what I could to make the game better, and how that would be impossible without everyone's cooperation. The subject soon changed to real world topics that made it abundantly clear that the stress caused by the pandemic and lockdowns are far more responsible for everyone's behavior than the VTT.
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What are some tips and tricks, life hacks, or just some good old fashioned advice for keeping players interested, engaged, and in line while roleplaying in VTT?
Just - just don't play with jerks.
You'll find new players quicker than they'll find a new GM.Any player that throws a fit like you described would be expelled from our games - friend or not.
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I did have one player get defensive and begin shouting at me when I brought up the idea of players suggesting when to reward hero points as one possible means of helping me remember to do so. I was told to "stop being a [part of the female anatomy] and that I should just do my [expletive] job as GM and remember them in the first place so they wouldn't all die again. That it's not their fault and that I shouldn't be putting the blame on them." I nearly hung up on him, but I suspected he misconstrued what I had said, and knew that disconnecting in anger would only make matters worse, so I stuck it out, let him have his three-minute vent session, then when he was calmer, continued talking to him calmly about how I intended to do what I could to make the game better, and how that would be impossible without everyone's cooperation. The subject soon changed to real world topics that made it abundantly clear that the stress caused by the pandemic and lockdowns are far more responsible for everyone's behavior than the VTT.
Why are you tolerating that person's behaviour? Whether it's related to gaming or not, that's a completely unacceptable way to behave, especially to someone who's meant to be a friend. Lots of people are stressed right now, but most of us can refrain from profanity-laden rants at our alleged friends over mechanics in roleplaying games. Life's too short to tolerate this kind of nonsense.
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As a GM, in person or online, you have a ton of things to keep tabs on and you can't help but be engaged 100% of the time. I haven't found that to be different when playing online. I do lack the direct feedback of an in-person game (we use video to see each other, which is something like being in the same room, but it's not the same).
As a player, I find it far, far easier to stay engaged when playing in person. Online, my attention starts fracturing around the 2 hour mark, tends to suffer greatly around the 3 hour mark, after which I usually rally, and I can hold it together for another 45 minutes or so, before finally it all crumbles around the 4 hour mark. I don't consider myself to be a "bad player," and I do try to maintain focus. But it's not easy.
Yeah. When I played in person, I used to think you needed 3 players plus GM and at least a 3 hour time block to make playing worth it. And that kind of made sense because playing I person requires a certain critical mass of player creativity and a commute.
Recently I began running Extinction Curse for two players, and it has been GREAT. The smaller group forces both players to stay dialed in, and makes it easier to spontaneously decide to play rather than require a dedicated time slot. Which also removes some pressure to get a lot done during the session, and thus makes playing a short game feel more ok.
The downside is you can't include as many people. But I'd suggest splitting your group and running two smaller games might be more fun and practical for all involved. Especially if players aren't super invested in the current game-- and yours have threatened to quit on you, so.
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Why are you tolerating that person's behaviour? Whether it's related to gaming or not, that's a completely unacceptable way to behave, especially to someone who's meant to be a friend. Lots of people are stressed right now, but most of us can refrain from profanity-laden rants at our alleged friends over mechanics in roleplaying games. Life's too short to tolerate this kind of nonsense.I did have one player get defensive and begin shouting at me when I brought up the idea of players suggesting when to reward hero points as one possible means of helping me remember to do so. I was told to "stop being a [part of the female anatomy] and that I should just do my [expletive] job as GM and remember them in the first place so they wouldn't all die again. That it's not their fault and that I shouldn't be putting the blame on them." I nearly hung up on him, but I suspected he misconstrued what I had said, and knew that disconnecting in anger would only make matters worse, so I stuck it out, let him have his three-minute vent session, then when he was calmer, continued talking to him calmly about how I intended to do what I could to make the game better, and how that would be impossible without everyone's cooperation. The subject soon changed to real world topics that made it abundantly clear that the stress caused by the pandemic and lockdowns are far more responsible for everyone's behavior than the VTT.
I wanted to respond to this because I had the exact opposite reaction... @Ravingdork, I'm impressed that you were able to do this for your friend. As you pointed out, it became clear outside factors were affecting things, you gave your friend some emotional space, and, not having allowed one attack, misconstrued or not, to define the conversation, you were able to find a positive end and work together to resolve the issue, for both the individual and the group.
That is excellent emotional intelligence and a great example of "being there" for someone. Obviously if this was the constant pattern of behavior this would have been a continuation of an unhealthy cycle, but in terms of handling the airing of concerns during a highly stressful period of time, I think it was great. Kudos from a random internet stranger.
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How old are your players, Ravingdork? My team has literally none of these issues online, but they're all middle-aged. If your team is young, you may just need to muddle through until they're a bit older.
Personally, I think VTT's are overrated and the software itself is a big distraction. My group talks over Discord and we use Google Slides for maps and images. It works great and keeps us focused on the story, not the machine.
I've just started GMing online and my experience is similar to Tarondor.
I'm using Discord and screen sharing my "handouts" document that has pictures I want to show them. I'm using Herolab Online for tracking rolls. Then we have Roll20 as a "dumb" tabletop. Serves exactly the same purpose a battlemat at the table would, just tracking relative positions.
Throughout most of the session we don't have any combat, so the VTT isn't even up. I'm doing what I would do at the table by cycling through people who haven't spoken recently to see what they're doing or thinking. Keeping everyone engaged.
When combat comes around I'm using my same notebook to track initiative and hp I use at the table, which I'm practiced with and goes faster than trying to muddle around with typing in fields and things. Everyone has access to every token just like at the table, so if someone wants to help someone else move they can (eg: Where is flanking?)
I trust my players so I let them use physical dice if they prefer, as I am also using physical dice. I could let them use paper character sheets if they wanted too, but hero lab is nice so I can help them find stuff on their sheets or whatever.
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I nearly hung up on him, but I suspected he misconstrued what I had said, and knew that disconnecting in anger would only make matters worse, so I stuck it out, let him have his three-minute vent session, then when he was calmer, continued talking to him calmly about how I intended to do what I could to make the game better, and how that would be impossible without everyone's cooperation. The subject soon changed to real world topics that made it abundantly clear that the stress caused by the pandemic and lockdowns are far more responsible for everyone's behavior than the VTT.
I'm proud of you Ravingdork. You've got a good head on your shoulders and heart in your chest.
I don't know what VTT you use. But in Fantasy Grounds, there's an option to play a bell noise when it gets to a player's turn. That helps me in letting people know when they need to go. Also, I ask them to please announce AFKs of more than a few seconds.
Taking a quick 5 minutes once an hour to refill drinks and potty might help, too.
Hmmm, I think a few people misconstrued my comment about turn order into something absolutely draconian!
When using non combat turn order, there's nothing wrong with planning with others. In fact, half my party discussed with other people about planning their turns. The main aspect to keep in mind is that you structure time to listen to each player individually; it's easy to talk over each other over voice chat, much more in real life, so it's especially important for the quiet members of your team to get lost in the noise. Also, nothing says you cant delay your action either; if you're a rogue waiting to sneak past the guards while the bard distracts them, you aren't SoL if your turn is before the bard, you just coordinate. Getting that strict is just silly.
I've just started GMing online and my experience is similar to Tarondor.
I'm using Discord and screen sharing my "handouts" document that has pictures I want to show them. I'm using Herolab Online for tracking rolls. Then we have Roll20 as a "dumb" tabletop. Serves exactly the same purpose a battlemat at the table would, just tracking relative positions.
Throughout most of the session we don't have any combat, so the VTT isn't even up. I'm doing what I would do at the table by cycling through people who haven't spoken recently to see what they're doing or thinking. Keeping everyone engaged.
When combat comes around I'm using my same notebook to track initiative and hp I use at the table, which I'm practiced with and goes faster than trying to muddle around with typing in fields and things. Everyone has access to every token just like at the table, so if someone wants to help someone else move they can (eg: Where is flanking?)
I trust my players so I let them use physical dice if they prefer, as I am also using physical dice. I could let them use paper character sheets if they wanted too, but hero lab is nice so I can help them find stuff on their sheets or whatever.
This seems like a good approach if your players are relatively savvy with simple addition. I think for a lot of folks the VTT rolling can be pretty useful, especially for high level play where dice pools get big.
On the other hand, using VTT will make those skills atrophy pretty hard if you had them on the first place, which I discovered when rolling dice for the first time in 8 months.
I nearly hung up on him, but I suspected he misconstrued what I had said, and knew that disconnecting in anger would only make matters worse, so I stuck it out, let him have his three-minute vent session, then when he was calmer, continued talking to him calmly about how I intended to do what I could to make the game better, and how that would be impossible without everyone's cooperation.
Like!
People are going to lash out when they're angry. If you have enough "water under the bridge," and keep communicating honestly, your group - and your friendships - will survive stuff like this.
If you feel like you're forgetting Hero Points because there are so many other things you need to track, you can bring that up. Perhaps there's something you're using mental bandwidth to track that the players don't appreciate. Off-load that onto them. For example, maybe getting everyone set up on VTT sucks up a lot of time, and someone more tech-savvy than you can help you out and free up some bandwidth. Sometimes these things are win-win: the tech-savvy friend is already annoyed because she can see you made a whole bunch of mistakes in the tech setup, and then gets annoyed because you spent all that time setting up that the game doesn't run to her satisfaction. You let her do the setup, and both complaints are simultaneously resolved.
And maybe sometimes you need a very light session with a nerfed combat so everyone can drink beer and shoot the breeze for 15 minutes after the session "ends." Not every session needs to be epic with lives at stake and the fate of the world in hand. If people are having a tough time in real life, maybe they just want to pound on a few APL-3 meat bags and call it a night, instead of using multiple Hero Points to reroll failed Will saves from the APL+3 spellcaster.
Hmmm, I think a few people misconstrued my comment about turn order into something absolutely draconian!
Not at all.
I don't say that you're doing it wrong or whatever, each table is different, each GM is different.I reacted because I got extremely bad experiences with turn order outside combat. And from the comments after mine it looks like I'm not alone.
Why is it working for you and isn't for me, I don't know. I reacted for you to consider that it's a technique that can affect negatively the mood of the game and as such not one that should be advised without restrictions.
I reacted for you to consider that it's a technique that can affect negatively the mood of the game and as such not one that should be advised without restrictions.
And I recommended it because at basically every single table I played at in which it was used, it drastically improved quality of life overall.
Like, you can say it's dangerous to enjoyment, but I can make the same argument about not having a turn order since it tends to result in whoever talks the loudest gets to do all the stuff, and the people who are quiet get talked over most of the time. Given that exploration mode is semi regimented anyways, using a turn order during it like I recommended isn't really much of a change
I reacted for you to consider that it's a technique that can affect negatively the mood of the game and as such not one that should be advised without restrictions.And I recommended it because at basically every single table I played at in which it was used, it drastically improved quality of life overall.
Like, you can say it's dangerous to enjoyment, but I can make the same argument about not having a turn order since it tends to result in whoever talks the loudest gets to do all the stuff, and the people who are quiet get talked over most of the time. Given that exploration mode is semi regimented anyways, using a turn order during it like I recommended isn't really much of a change
I would be very curious how this would feel. I am not sure I would like it in every conversation and players would definitely need a way to pass.
PFS a lot of GM do this for "non combat encounters"
My usual groups just do whoever talks, ends up talking out of combat. It is just hard to tell if other players want to chime in, especially on VTT.
The thing I like about your idea is players would actually have to pay attention for when their "turn" pops up. Rather than players tuning out if they dont like the conversation. It also helps that players all get equal chance to talk.
Main problems are some players might actually not like to talk much and if you force characters that are bad at "diplomacy" to do these checks they might not enjoy it.
Like, you can say it's dangerous to enjoyment, but I can make the same argument about not having a turn order
But I'm not recommending anything. I'm not saying you're wrong or whatever, just that this technique can be detrimental. Now, what are the reasons it works for you and not for me, I don't know. But without a proper description of how to do it well, I'm logically considering that it can be badly executed.
whoever talks the loudest gets to do all the stuff, and the people who are quiet get talked over most of the time.
In every group some people are leading more and others are following more. Why do you consider you have to do something to fight the group dynamic?
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I did have one player get defensive and begin shouting at me when I brought up the idea of players suggesting when to reward hero points as one possible means of helping me remember to do so. I was told to "stop being a [part of the female anatomy] and that I should just do my [expletive] job as GM and remember them in the first place so they wouldn't all die again. That it's not their fault and that I shouldn't be putting the blame on them." I nearly hung up on him, but I suspected he misconstrued what I had said, and knew that disconnecting in anger would only make matters worse, so I stuck it out, let him have his three-minute vent session, then when he was calmer, continued talking to him calmly about how I intended to do what I could to make the game better, and how that would be impossible without everyone's cooperation. The subject soon changed to real world topics that made it abundantly clear that the stress caused by the pandemic and lockdowns are far more responsible for everyone's behavior than the VTT.
Kudos for you having more patience than I do. The moment that happened, the conversation would have been over, the player would have been kicked from my game, and I wouldn't sit at another table with them until they sincerely apologized and swore to never do it again.
Kudos for you having more patience than I do.
You're only hearing one side of the story.
Sure, the player sounds pretty unreasonable from the literal one sentence posted. But I bet if they read what Ravingdork wrote about them, they would contest the characterization. Or they would put it in context, and it wouldn't look so clear cut.
That's why calls to kick the player out are really premature.
This could be the best man from Ravingdork's wedding, a guy who dragged him out of a burning building in Fallujah. If they have enough water under the bridge, they can handle it like adults.
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Well, when someone goes to the extent of quoting someone, I assume that's what was said. I don't need to hear or know the other side if the quote is accurate. If its not, then the poster is being dishonest whether intentional or accidental. Either way, I can only form my response based on the the information provided being factual. To assume otherwise, makes the entire discussion futile.
I really don't care if the person is my best man, my best friend, my brother, etc. I have plenty of friends and family that I love and respect but I wouldn't game with them. I would hang out with them, I would have dinner with them. I would invite them to my house to watch the game, but I wouldn't game with them. Personalities are what they are and sometimes they don't mesh. You are welcome to handle the situation however you'd like, but I'll handle my business my way. Thx.
And its not like this is out of the blue. If you have followed recently, Ravingdork has posted a number of issues with his gaming group which can at best be described as dysfunctional. It would be interesting to hear from some of the players, but absent that, I assume his descriptions are factual.
I can only form my response based on the the information provided being factual.
While true, nobody is preventing you from asking follow-up questions before you reccommend a course of action.
And its not like this is out of the blue. If you have followed recently, Ravingdork has posted a number of issues with his gaming group which can at best be described as dysfunctional. It would be interesting to hear from some of the players, but absent that, I assume his descriptions are factual.
This would have been a valid excuse, except that Ravingdork also posted in this very thread that when he let his friend vent for a bit, they got to some deeper issues and ...
The subject soon changed to real world topics that made it abundantly clear that the stress caused by the pandemic and lockdowns are far more responsible for everyone's behavior than the VTT.
... they ended up having a real, honest, adult discussion about it. His players clearly aren't the malicious imps that their isolated quotes make them out to be.
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before you reccommend a course of action
In this case, I didn't recommend a course of action. I said what I would do if it were me. I assume Ravingdork is taking feedback from all posters and making up his own mind what he will do.
His players clearly aren't the malicious imps that their isolated quotes make them out to be
That assumes his descriptions are accurate which you previously seemed to doubt. So why is he misleading when the description of the player's actions is poor, but he's accurate when he describes them as good? Either his descriptions are to be believed or they aren't. Absent of evidence, you cannot pick and chose.
Besides, as I said up thread, this is not an isolated instance. He has shared numerous comments regarding his players across a number of issues. IMO, there is enough evidence to demonstrate they are at least dysfunctional, and at worse openly hostile towards each other. He seems to demonstrate more patience than I, and I applaud him for that, cause I wouldn't tolerate what he has described.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you say to me or vice versa. The point is to address Ravingdork. So, why don't you stick to that, and I'll do the same and let him decide for himself
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My quotes are made largely from memory, which I admit isn't what it once was, but they are nevertheless made in good faith to the best of my ability.
I'm sure if any of my friends saw this thread, they would be quite cross with me, and it remains one of the great fears in the back of my mind that they should be made aware of it, so much so that a part of me wishes this thread would die and be lost. At the same time, though, I believe giving recent events a voice is helping me to cope and keep a higher level of tolerance and good spirit than I might otherwise.
This could be the best man from Ravingdork's wedding... If they have enough water under the bridge, they can handle it like adults.
Actually, I was the best man at his wedding. (I myself have never married.) We've known each other since the 2nd-grade and I, at least, consider him one of my best and oldest friends, quite rather like a brother I should say. And as with many such relationships, I suppose a history of traditional low-level abuse that can come with brotherhood.
That might literally be the only reason I've been this patient this far. I yet have a mind to kick him out! But for our history, I'm going to stick it out and see how the next couple games go first. Maybe it can be saved, maybe it will improve. If it continues as it has recently though, he'll soon have to find a new GM. Better to have no games at all than to have to deal with stressful games, after all.
Of my five players, his wife is counted among them, and another player might well be on even friendlier terms with him than I. Of the remaining two, one is brother to the friend (and so might well go with him) and the other is an online friend of the friend, whom I've never met and have no close relationship. In short, all of my players are in one way or another, closer to the one quoted than to me.
So to kick him out may well cause the entire 25+ year group to fracture entirely, perhaps with ramifications rippling beyond the table. That is but one of the many reasons I'm sticking to diplomacy first, even though he doesn't appear to be the least bit apologetic for his behavior at this time. Is it unbalanced? Hell yet it is! But that doesn't mean I'm without hope for another 25+ years of amazing games.
In every group some people are leading more and others are following more. Why do you consider you have to do something to fight the group dynamic?
"Leading' and "following" is not the dynamic of "those who talk over" and "those who are talked over". That dynamic is "Those who get to do things" and "those who don't get to do things".
Obviously all advice should be received in the context of "know your group and do what's best", but when one of the listed issues is "players aren't respecting each other", an easy solution is to set visible boundaries, since 9/10 times, the disrespect is totally accidental, and if the line is easier to see, people are more likely to heed it.
I myself rarely do turn orders for exploration mode in person unless the loud people are really loud because generally, the loud people can more easily see that they are talking over people and they pull back naturally. I do use them in VTT because it's harder for them to see it, and they tend to talk over the quiet people much more often because they can't as easily see that they are doing so
Having played in plenty of games with quiet people and sometimes playing quiet characters or being polite to let others have a go and seeing people and actions get ignored, I would prefer more people used turns in general. There's nothing stopping you on your turn, so long as time isn't an immediate threat, to ask other players what the plan is and how to proceed, or even to just pass if they don't think they have anything to contribute.
Even if your GM stops the group before doing something and asks what each person is doing. It's better to give quiet people a chance to pass the spotlight then risk them often being ignored or feeling like other, often louder, players are better or more important to listen too.
Also, as much as it often annoys me, sometimes someone making a bad choice when the spotlight is thrust on them can be an entertaining thing for the group.
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it doesn't matter what you say to me or vice versa. The point is to address Ravingdork. So, why don't you stick to that, and I'll do the same and let him decide for himself
Sure.
Ravingdork, ignore all the crap advice in this thread. 25 years of friendship is worth an abyss of a lot more than strangers on the internet.
These are friends whose marriage certificate you co-signed, perhaps you're even on a list to take care of their kids if they die in a car accident. Don't let the rate at which you hand out Hero Points be the death blow to this relationship.
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Don't let the rate at which you hand out Hero Points be the death blow to this relationship.
Hahaha. Hell no!
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With the group I'm playing with, we are forced to use a VTT since we are scattered across Europe.
I generally prefer pen and paper, and I could say that in my case (and many others, in this period) VTTs are a necessary evil. But actually, they also have some advantages.
Zergos made good points about them in general; I will add my perspective.
- Playing online is much slower, not only because people get distracted. Talking via chat has the additional problem of not knowing what the others are saying (or that they are actually saying something) while they type, so speech tends to overlap. This is a bit annoying and sometimes confusing.
- People do get distracted more easily, because they are less committed. I do too, at least as a player. It is not necessarily a major problem, but that depends on the specific players and the expectations you have. We have been playing via VTT for at least ten years now, and we are used to that: we know that things will go slow, and that we will occasionally have to wait because someone has been called by his wife or because his connection dropped. We also don't have anyone delaying play too much, or too regularly.
- In my opinion, voice chat helps a lot with both problems. It is not always possible (imagine playing on late evening with children sleeping nearby), and my group also likes to save logs of what happened, so all in-character speech should be typed anyway. Our first attempt to use voice for all the other things didn't work well, so we aren't doing that now; we also didn't actually try so hard. If it works for you, it's a thing that can speed up play a lot, and also limits players' distraction.
- VTTs can add a lot to the game. Being able to see the map, the aspect of a monster or an NPC, to visualize the place your character is going to, are things that mere descriptions can't match - unless the GM is really skilled, I guess. We are hopefully switching to Foundry soon, and I know I will enjoy perks like sound effects, dice rolling animations, the automatic scrambling of texts written in unknown languages. If your framework is good, you can also let it handle a lot of mechanical parts of the game and focus on playing your PC, while also avoiding many errors.
Edit: I forgot to add, one of my fellow players has some kind of superpower to find a pic or a video about the situations we are playing, with lightning speed. It's hilarious, and something he couldn't do if we were playing face to face.
One thing I do like about VTTs, tho, is the ability to deal with players one on one without the other players knowing about it.
If a character receives a secret letter, I can send it to just that player.
If a character fails a save and gets dominated, I can send them a private message, rather than say it out loud and listen to the other players try to justify why they are suddenly casting dispel magic on the other character because he's "acting funny (when he literally just failed his save one round ago).
Also, line of sight maps are great! In Fantasy Grounds Unity (and Foundry, and I'm sure others), instead of having to constantly uncover fog of war and all players seeing all uncovered parts of the map, each player only sees what their character sees.
One thing I do is, at the beginning of each session, I give a hero point to a player who can give me an accurate recap of last week's session. And I don't mind giving out more to other players who chime in.
Gives them incentive to pay attention.