Thematic choices; where flavor and mechanics intersect

[Sysryke]

I had a bit of an epiphany. I'm sure some of you will think "well duh", as maybe this was obvious to some of you. I've struck upon an aspect of character/class design that I think appeals to me and many others; though certainly not all.

The classes that I enjoy the most, and that I'm wondering if they actually see more play, are those with some kind of baked in thematic choices in the core build.

I'm thinking of Cleric (deities and domains), Fighter (specific weapon and style builds), Sorcerer/Bloodrager bloodlines, Wizard schools, Cavalier/Sammurai orders, Inquisitor inquisitions, Oracle mysteries, Summoner eidolons, Hunter companions, and Shaman spirits.

Classes that make you make choices about theme or identity at level 1 (maybe 2). It feels like these were archetypes before archetypes were even a thing. For players like myself, who try and play something that "feels" different with each character, it seems these choices offer more replay value to certain classes. Obviously, archetypes did a lot to help with this issue for most/all classes.

I should also give honorable mention to Druids, Rangers, and Shifters. They all have mechanics that help establish a theme; but with each there is some factor that makes it a bit less ideal (Druid fewer defining choices and too much power/versatility; Ranger to mechanically gimped by the favored choices being so nice; Shifter mechanically sub par).

Witches too could make the list, but I feel like the patrons don't come with enough mechanics tied to the flavor.

I just don't know the occult classes, but with all the rest not on my list, I feel there are one of two problems (for my character building process). Either the class has too much in the way of options/versatility, or the class as a whole already is one theme.

In the first case you have (most of) the remaining classes. Features like Rogue talents, Barbarian rage powers, Alchemist discoveries, and their ilk offer nearly endless customization. Mechanically this is great. Creatively it can also be good; but the lack of those defining thematic choices seems to lead too often to the same traditional, optimal, or familiar features selections. This with the Witch too.

The second problem comes from classes like the Vampire Hunter, the Vigilante, and maybe the Omdura. There is a strongly built in theme to the class as a whole. To be fair the Druid can have this problem too. Even Bards and Scalds have this issue somewhat. Strong mechanics and archetypes go a great way towards mitigating this issue, but those first three are still hard for me to get excited over.

Weirdly too, the Gunslinger manages to represent both problems/extremes to me, without being able to find its way into the happy middle of the original classes I listed.

I guess I'm just wondering how people feel about this. Are there features on some classes I'm overlooking that make them more theme friendly? Where do the various occult classes fall in this topic? Are there archetypes you feel really make this no big deal, or any classes that even archetypes don't help? (Keeping in mind this is not about mechanical optimization). Do you just not care about theme, or are you really good about making the thematic choice always mechanics be d*mned?

[Scott Wilhelm]

For me, the thematic character build tends to happen independently from the game-mechanic character build. Sometimes one leads to another. I found a really cool 3.5 Feat called Elusive Target that gives you a free Trip attempt whenever you Provoke an Attack of Opportunity by moving out of a Threatened Square. So I thought, what's a good weapon for that? I decided Halberd; that's a Tripping weapon. What people in history used Halberds? I thought the Swiss and the Highland Scots, but the Swiss fought in disciplined ranks and formations, running around, provoking attacks of opportunity suggested the more undisciplined Scottish style than the Swiss Pike Square. Also, I saw the party didn't have a skill monkey, so I took the Nymph's kiss Feat and intended to take some levels in Rogue and be a sort of fighter-engineer. There are a lot of famous Scottish engineers, so the character took shape. I wrote Nymph's Kiss into his back story. As a handsome youth, he was seduced by a nymph while he was supposed to be looking after the cattle, and that's how he got the Nymph's Kiss Feat.
But while he was in the fairy mound, a rival clan stole the herd. Rather than admit that he was dallying on the job, he made up a story of a war party, and that started off a whole clan war. His nymph lover spurned him when she found out she lied about him, and eventually, disgusted with endless wars, he left his clan and became an adventurer.

I know someone who found out she was born in the last Year of the Fire Horse. We found out that the Fire Horse is the most controversial sign in the Chinese Zodiac, and Hinoeuma women suffer discrimination all over the Far East, fated, they say to bring misery and disaster to any household they marry into. So a made a character named Yuki Hinoema, and she would say things like "I am an Hinoema woman, I bring misery to all men. My dowry is my sword." So I figured, a sword-and-board fighter. She should have an adamantine sword and take Sundering Feats, sometimes naming her sword Dowry, and sometimes naming it Homewrecker.

I put together a build around Thunder and Fang: Earthbreaker and Klar. I planned out all the game mechanics first, and it is a complex build dipping Ranger, Paladin, and/or Inquisitor, taking Shield Slam which gives free Bull Rushes, Greater Bull Rush, which gives allies Attacks of Opportunity, and Paired Opportunist which gives him AoOs, too. I like taking advantage of weapons made of unusual materials to bypass DR, so I figured Alchemal Silver Bludgeoning weapons don't take any penalties, so he wields and Alchemal Silver Earthbreaker. Uh, oh! a Silver Hammer! This character has to be named Maxwell after the Beatles' Song. He needs a last name, so I thought, Father MacKenzie, The character will have levels in Paladin or Inquisitor, so "Father" fits. Father Maxwell MacKenzie it is.

I had a friend who joked about naming his character Rocky Racoon. I told him if he did that, I would name my character Danny Kite, and we would get the other player to name her character Lil' Nancy McGill. I think he was going to chicken out on that, but then the Plague hit. I was going to make Danny Kite a ninja sniper who spammed Vanishing Trick and False Attacker and used a Wand of Scorching Ray, and then maybe some Grappling, or maybe make him an Arcane Trickster.

I have a character named after Lee Ann Hester the war hero, and another character named after a porn star.

[VoodistMonk]

Depends what I interested in building, honestly.

If I am building for a specific mechanic, then I will jumble together classes that support that mechanic... intended flavor be d@mned. However, I am often drawn to certain classes because I am looking to explore that specific flavor... mechanics be d@mned.

It's not hard to make a useful and even halfway effective character using almost any of mechanics available to just about every class. It's actually difficult to mess up a Longspear and Combat Reflexes.

But if you want deific boons or rage or Bloodlines, you look to the classes/archetypes that offer that specific flavor. It's hard to capture the essence of flying into a rage without rage (as an example).

Sometimes, I can't tell the difference between the two sides. With Variel, I just simply chose Panache as something I wanted to explore. Ok, that's a Swashbuckler thing... what else do they get? Opportune Parry & Riposte? What's this?! Well, this is neat. There's a combat style called Panther Parry and another called Crane Riposte? AND a Monk that can use both has access to Panache?!?! Get outa here. You're lying, right? Wait, there's a Ranger with Panache, too? Cool. And then I went Magus, to become the best Swashbuckler I possibly could be. Especially for only having one level of actual Swashbuckler. But I had a Panache Pool that could key off of Charisma, Intelligence... was interchangeable with the Ki Pool I also had, and I could use it [Panache] with my Rapier, Unarmed Strikes, and my Bow. Is it mechanically driven, or flavor? I don't know, but it was fun.

[Scavion]

Clerics(The spells you want to prepare are pretty much identical to anybody else's until 7th/9th class level) and Fighters are probably the worst example of diversity imo. For me, it comes down to how the character plays at the table. For the most part, every x-fighting style character is roughly the same. I.E Every Fighter using a ranged weapon will play almost identical. Every Two-Weapon Fighter will be very similar, etc. Whether your fighter uses a shortsword or longsword is irrelevant unless it does something more unique than does X damage. A whip user is identical to every other whip user.

Wizards have the same issue. Every Evoker(Or rather, every Evoker is an admixture specialist) looks very similar. Nobody plays Illusionist(lol). Archetypes help these issues a lot. A sin magic specialist is like an old school wizard.

90% of Cavaliers just don't exist in non-mount friendly games. The ones that do look very similar charging. Warpriests in particular have identity problems since they're already just a refined version of Battle Clerics. Inquisitors likewise look very similar in play to any Battle Cleric or Warpriest.

Two Occult classes have something they bring to the table which I can absolutely envision myself playing multiple times. The key driving factor for which is that they grant you access to story information that nobody else can really acquire. Object Reading from the Occultist and Haunt Channeler from the Medium. This would be despite the classes having similar playstyles to any other Occultist or Medium.

[gnoams]

Looking at your [The OP's] list, I'd say I'm nearly the polar opposite. I rarely play divine casters because of them being strongly stuck in someone else's defined theme and I want to make up my own. I love monks, rogues, barbarians, and alchemists because of their plethora of frequent choices of new powers that can potentially be used as the basis for defining my character around.

Most of my characters are something like: Dr Fielding of Leipidstadt University. Trained in all the modern sciences and latest medical techniques. I happened to use the "Rogue" class to build her, but she is a learned scholar and doctor, with high knowledges, able to treat any ailment, heal for massive amounts, and grant large amounts of temp hp for an hour. She does not skulk about, has no stealth, disable, would never steal anything, does not stab people in the back, and is in no way or sense of the word, a rogue.

If you were to play with Dr Fielding, you would have no idea what "class" she is unless I told you. That to me is a great class, because I can use it to build my own character, rather than be defined by the character of the class. I could play many different characters using that same class, and each character would be a completely different person, with a different story to explore. On the other hand I've played a druid once, because the flavor is so baked in that despite all the different mechanical options, there's only really slight variations on a single theme to explore there.

[Sysryke]

I agree with a lot of your all's points. I think once again I've managed to use too many words to explain my point, and confused the issue. I do appreciate the creativity and diversity of the less theme baked classes. I just find that the first dozen or so I listed from my original post help to strike a happy middle ground for me. Using sorcerer as a quick model; bloodline choice facilitates making a quick and clear thematic statement about your character, but then your other choices allow for making the character uniquely your own. Via spell, feat, race, trait choices etc. you could have dozens of very diverse draconic sorcerers for instance.

You may not have as much diversity/custimization as a rogue, but that thematic choice helps to set a base for the character concept. Its (for me, and not every single time) a happy compromise, and a useful backstory device. That was kind of my point I guess. I like the middle ground between infinite options and clear direction, between flavor and mechanics. That's what theme is for me.

Thanks all for you thoughts so far.

[VoodistMonk]

@gnoams... Variel was my dude trained in all things Panache. I thought it embodied the Swashbuckler as a whole, especially feeding off of the Opportune Parry & Riposte thing with Panther Parry and Crane Riposte. I figured expanding Panache was becoming a better Swashbuckler. And all the styles matching the very Swashbuckler Deed... Kensai Magus actually furthered the theme VERY well (dex, wis, int to AC, ki arcana interchangability... fun stuff)

He was an emissary from Kyonin, trained at the temple to correct a troubled youth (pirate and stuff)... absolutely had an reason tied into backstory... he started at level 9, so I had plenty of "time" to come up with a connecting backstory.

[gnoams]

VoodistMonk wrote:

@gnoams... Variel was my dude trained in all things Panache. I thought it embodied the Swashbuckler as a whole, especially feeding off of the Opportune Parry & Riposte thing with Panther Parry and Crane Riposte. I figured expanding Panache was becoming a better Swashbuckler. And all the styles matching the very Swashbuckler Deed... Kensai Magus actually furthered the theme VERY well (dex, wis, int to AC, ki arcana interchangability... fun stuff)

He was an emissary from Kyonin, trained at the temple to correct a troubled youth (pirate and stuff)... absolutely had an reason tied into backstory... he started at level 9, so I had plenty of "time" to come up with a connecting backstory.

I love doing builds like that too. I'll come across an archetype or feat or whatever and think, I wonder if I can make a build off of that. So then I use the search on Archives of Nethys to see if I can find interesting combinations.

Like I wondered if I could make a ranged sneak attacker with feint. So I searched feint, found ranged feint and sly draw. So I came up with an underground chemist with the fast getaway talent. The sleight of hand from drawing a weapon with sly draw procs fast getaway, letting you withdraw as a move action, then throw your chemical weapons at they guy you just sleight of hand feinted against. Throw in the concentrated splash feat and I've got a decent build.

Sometimes I find cool stuff that way, sometimes it's just a dead end. Like Shlomo the slow Psychic who slowly casts the slow spell using the pageantry discipline. That's all I could come up for slow.

[VoodistMonk]

Gnoams, Variel stomped F'ing @$$, it was ridiculously fun... fighting defensively, all the styles fused... untouchable! Actually SO untouchable, he had to go... it wasn't fun anymore.

I think I "perfected" Panache with Variel... I will fight you for the title! Can you Panache with a Rapier, Unarmed Strikes, and a Bow? Can you trade Ki and Arcana for Panache? Do you get Dex + Wis + Int to AC? Do you have...?

[Scavion]

Sysryke wrote:

Using sorcerer as a quick model; bloodline choice facilitates making a quick and clear thematic statement about your character, but then your other choices allow for making the character uniquely your own. Via spell, feat, race, trait choices etc. you could have dozens of very diverse draconic sorcerers for instance.

Those other choices however are quite frequently hamstrung by your bloodline choice. I'd actually say there are about 3 types of Draconic Sorcerers. The Blaster, The Dragon Disciple, and anyone who ignores their bloodline abilities is just like any other character who ignores their bloodline abilities.

Sysryke wrote:

You may not have as much diversity/custimization as a rogue, but that thematic choice helps to set a base for the character concept. Its (for me, and not every single time) a happy compromise, and a useful backstory device. That was kind of my point I guess. I like the middle ground between infinite options and clear direction, between flavor and mechanics. That's what theme is for me.

Unfortunately, having lots of choices doesn't mean anything if those choices aren't meaningful. Sorcerers don't make many choices, but the ones they do get to make are impactful. You could give Rogues twice the number of Rogue Talents and they wouldn't matter that much.

Well done thematic choices are both flavorful and impactful. Ghostslayer or Soulblade are simultaneously useful and thematic. Improved Initiative is very useful...but not very thematic.

[Sysryke]

Thank you Scavion. Your second part response more clearly made the point I was going for, in about a fourth of the words I used. I'm cursed to never be concise. Everyone, read/note Scavion's comment about thematic choice yes that are both flavorful and impactful. That's what I like, and what I think some classes achieve better than others.

Congrats Scavion, you win my thread :p

Still more than happy to see others thoughts and feedback.