Hi there,
I have a character concept I am working on and I am looking for some input.
The idea is to make a mad scientist, either a kobold or a ratfolk. He'd have two lives and be on the move constantly, carrying his alchemical lab inside a portable hole, wherever he goes. His main aim in life is to explore and expand the limits of the body, through grafts, magic items and alchemy. He has two completely separate identities. One for every day social life and one where he shows off his rather gruesome trade. I would RP him as obsessed with learning, at all costs but with no moral conviction to do this for good or evil, just for the advancement of his science. In the long term he would take the Fiendish Obedience feat, with Andirifkhu as his deity. She has an obedience that requires him to torture a living creature to death, this fits in nicely with his research as a Vivisectionist and gives an especially useful second boon.
On the ground before you is a metal circle, in the middle of this circle you see the face of a dragon carved into the metal plate. Its mouth is open and a dim light is shining through. Shigran hands you a potion and says, "If you are serious about getting this new arm, you are going to have to drink this." He grins at you as you drink the potion. Your body feels a bit weird and you shrink to his height.
"Alright then, follow me!" he says, and drinks a potion of his own. As he does so his body seems to become a little looser and flabby. His light brown Kobold scales seem to be made out of jello and he sits himself down in front of the dragon image mouth. "I find it easier to go feet first, but its up to you really." He sticks one leg in, and then the next, and without much effort at all seems to squeeze his whole body through a hole that it was never meant to fit. As you follow him through your body seems to ripple a bit as it forms and reforms to fit a hole no larger than half a dinner plate.
Once inside you are stunned to find a very small circular room, it is 6 feet in diameter and 4,5 feet high, if you were still medium sized you would have to stoop to stand. All the way along the circular wall are floor to ceiling book cases, filled with books, alchemical ingredients, bits of scrap paper and half-finished drawings. In front of these book cases, at ground level, is a circle of work tables, filled with vials, stills, other alchemical apparatus. There are glass pots filled with eye-balls and others with what seem to be pickled hands. In the center of room there is enough space for a medium sized person to lie down. Different light sources, clamps, tubes and pumps hang down from the ceiling.
But perhaps the most astounding thing is that everything is tiny sized. Just as you remark the size of these work benches and tools, does Shigran walk back up from what seems to be a basement level. He has shrunk in size as well! From his normal kobold self to the height of a small cat. In fact a cat could almost serve him for a mount right now. He skitter towards you and says "Aaah yes, there you are... Please take a seat!" And motions for a small sized stool that seems to also be a tiny sized dining table.
He keeps on running from one side of the room to the other as he gathers some things and says: "So before when we spoke, you mentioned that you want to get yourself a new arm. I have all sorts stored away, some are perfectly legal, others... hrmm... maybe not so much. I could regrow your old arm or replace it with something new. Maybe something a bit stronger like a lizardfolk? Or perhaps something with a bit more spice, like a demon? It all depends on what you want to do with it after we finish really. So, any ideas?"
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I can give more details on this alchemical lab, but I want to focus on the character for now.
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The build:
Rogue 2 / Vigilante 2 / Vivisectionist 16
** is unsure
Feats:
1 Sap Adept
2 Rogue Talent: Underhanded
3 **Craft Wondrous Items
5 **Master Craftsman
7 Sap Master (This and the previous could be switched for earlier combat effectiveness)
9 Fiendish Obedience
10 Vigilante Social Talent: Always Prepared (Ex) (To be extra useful to my party)
11 ** Fleshwarper - Vigilante Talent: Sure-Footed (full speed acrobatics and stealth, but I'm unsure if I should even take this level)
13 Diverse Obedience (For +2 HD and the ability to take Evangelist boons)
15 **Quick Draw (He will be using different kinds of (thrown) weapons and chugging potions)
17 **Extra Rogue Talent: Snap Shot
19 ??
I am thinking to go Str with this little guy. I plan on being in melee, after level 9 I will be able to cast my first Monstrous Physique spell, which I will use to get useful combat forms. Belt of Mighty Hurling would allow me to throw stuff. My low BAB will be fixed by Mutagens, my own magic items and size increases. I can craft my own Amulet of Might Fists with Merciful, which will allow me to be in my combat form and still use Sap Master if I can get my targets flatfooted.
So yeah I have a few questions:
1) If you were my DM, would you allow me to play such a character? Good party rogue/striker, possible Party Face and buff specialist by day (CG). Near-evil scientist by trade at night (CN, moving towards CE. Mostly for RP reasons).
2) I don't really know what I am doing with the feats or their order. I don't want combat feats that lock me into one attack form because of Monstrous Physique. I could be over specializing on that surprise round.
If I know the fight is coming I will end up having 23d6 SA dice, so 46d6 maximised = 264 + 46 (Sap Adept) = 310 Nonlethal damage in one shot. Just from SA damage (Sense Vitals and Halfling Vengeance + 2d6 from my deity).
3) Any other reliable ways to get enemies flatfooted (NOT denied their dex)? I am thinking maybe Grease?
Last question:
Andirifkhu gives a boon that allows me to sneak attack without my target becoming aware of me.
4) If my targets never become aware of me (stealth or imp invis combined with this boon), would that mean their flat-footed status never goes away? Or does it end when they first get to act? If I use Imp Invis, could I sneak attack on a full attack without them even becoming aware of me?
Kind regards,
Bram
Underhanded looks better than it is because getting the actions required to draw a concealed weapon during the surprise round isn't easy - you need the quick draw feat (which you don't have until level 15) and also a means of getting a move action during the surprise round like sandals of quick reaction. And you need to invest in the sleight of hand skill to conceal a weapon. On top of all that you need a bit of charisma, which will cost on an int-based alchemist who uses at least two of the physical stats too, and who probably isn't dumping wis.
Snap shot requires you to have a weapon out and ready, underhanded requires you to have a weapon concealed. You can't use these with the same weapon. I guess it works with one weapon in hand with which you use snap shot, one concealed to make the attack with underhanded.
You can't get craft wondrous items before master craftsman unless you're a spellcaster, unless you get the spell knowledge discovery - which you're not eligible for until alchemist level 4/character level 6.
As to whether I'd allow this concept, it depends on the game. I can't say more than that sorry. You'll need to talk to your GM.
There are a number of ways of making an enemy flat-footed, but they aren't easy one way or another. e.g. the shatter defences feat, or the distracting attack rogue talent.
Flat-footed status goes away when they get to act and you only get one round of surprise. Separately, greater invisibility will deny dex bonus (not make the enemy flat-footed) against all attacks in a full attack.
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No. I would not allow it. Your character is evil.
I mean "I'm not that concerned about what people think of me" is one thing but "there are no lines I won't cross" is an entirely other thing.
I'm also not really a big fan of the complete separation between two personalities; remember that the Jekyll and Hyde story is just a metaphor for alcohol abuse.
If your B persona does something, it's because your A persona wanted to do it but for whatever reason didn't think it would be a good idea (they didn't think they could get away with it, they though the consequences would be unpleasant, etc.)
As much as I love the Obedience feats, sometimes you have to be selective... I mean, the whole torturing something to death, every day... I wouldn't pal around with someone who did that. I can put up with A LOT, both as a player and a GM... some things, though.
Playing an evil character is whatever, they can work in certain situations... it's not THAT big of deal, honestly. It's easy enough to have long game plans that are never exposed in the entirety of the campaign. You can be evil and your party literally never knows.
Unless you worship a freaking demon that demands you torture something to death every freaking day. That's hard to hide, harder to justify, and literally nobody should be okay with it.
AVR pointed out some mechanical problems with the build that I would like to expamd on. If you are going to play Underhanded games, you are going to want Quickdraw about the same time... so delay Rogue/Underhanded, or take Quickdraw way sooner. Using the Rogue Talent to pick up Weapon Focus, and going down the Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses route might be better, though.
Yeah, Fiendish obedience makes you evil immediately. One of my favorite things about the second edition of Pathfinder is that it makes it abundantly clear that a demon lord, archdevil, daemon harbinger, or elder god granting power to a non-evil person is exceptionally rare, as most of those beings are about things that a non-evil person cannot stomach (like torture, so Andirifkhu is right out.)
I am thinking to split this topic into two, one about the alignment discussion and one about the character build. Because most of the posts in this thread are about the alignment, let me respond on the RP aspect of this character. Which is what caused me to write up this post in the first place:
Thanks for all the replies everyone! It is very much appreciated. I guess I should have expected that there would be some pushback on this concept, especially with the torturing and all that ;)
I like the idea of exploring 'grey' areas and moral dilemmas, and the concept of scientific discovery past all moral boundaries both intrigues and scares me. If we speak about modern day I am not only thinking about the Monsanto's of the world, taking over the food supply, but also the relatively new science of Biohacking using Crispr. Where people tinker with their own genome, or the genome of animals in their basement or garage.
As far as this character being of Evil alignment I would say that I had in mind to make it a kind of progression. Start off on the neutral side and as his discoveries and grafting take him into darker territories, shift his alignment over to evil. Fleshwarper has the outright requirement to be evil, so there is that. I wasn't under any illusion that the obedience wouldn't turn me evil. I also want to clear up that I didn't want to RP him as a split personality, but rather one public and one hidden personality. With the hidden personality doing what it does outside of the general table roleplaying. I guess I should have been much more clear on that.
I was mainly just hoping for some feedback on whether people would allow this at their table. I don't have a group to play with at this time and am just thinking up different kinds of characters, which I enjoy a lot and Pathfinder offers a perfect platform for.
I am now thinking that instead of taking him into this fleshgrafter/obedience direction I could make him a Vivisectionist / Homonuculist. Perhaps with the Promethean Disciple discovery as well. This would allow him to stay out of any evil territory, without changing the RP angle.
Your thoughts?
I will now edit out the character build parts and start a new thread. After that I will try to respond to people directly.
EDIT: Hmmm, I can't seem to edit the original post. I will just make a new thread then.
Seems like mechanics has been pretty handled, so I'll answer the big question:
Your character, even without the obedience, is clearly evil. Like, how is that even in question? Does an "evil" character need to twirl their mustache (regardless of race and gender) and rant about how much they enjoy being evil?
Not all evil characters see themselves as evil. But this guy has a high enough INT to be aware unless he's genuinely insane.
I mean, removing the direct worship of a demon lord of among other things, torture, and daily murders in the most horrible way possible - he still smacks of edgelord.
I'd make his alignments CE and CN.
Would I let you play him? Possibly, depending on the game. I sometimes run evil campaigns and evil leaning groups - he'd potentially fit there. Assuming he doesn't try to PVP, but the character seems like a potential team player.
But I'd defer strongly to the decision of your GM. This character will not fit most games.
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No I wouldn't allow it. Not because the character is evil but because I don't know you and there is nothing I (admittedly skim) read in the description that shows that you are thinking how the character will blend nicely into a normal campaign.
If you had said something along the lines of I want to play a NE or CE character who has a depraved fascination with sugically dismembering creatures to see how they work but who strives to keep it a secret from others and is otherwise a normal member of society then I would most likely allow it. That description would give me confidence that you wouldn't disrupt the campaign or create table disharmony 'because it's what my character would do'.
1. Unless running a specifically Evil campaign, no evil characters in my game.
2. Players who develop characters with certain strange traits, such as the torture of a living creature to death, will be asked to reconsider their character or no longer attend my game.
Graphic detail, should be minimal to non-existant.
This.
I think the key to playing a borderline non-evil character is that while your character has something they really, really want to do, a part of them has to realize that crossing that line is a bad idea and it should be avoided if doing so is reasonable.
I had two characters like this in 1e, both changelings. One had inherited her mother's taste for human flesh, and has indulged in the past, but decided "I will not become a monster" and swore to uphold a vegetarian diet. She also had a natural acumen for cooking as well as intimidation, and would sometimes attempt to freak people out by describing in detail to an enemy combatant how she would make them delicious, but she never partook. The other was a waker may changeling who had inherited her mother's predeliction for cruelty, and generally had the worst instincts in the world for "doing the right thing" but again had chosen to step back from that, and has learned to reflexively second guess every single idea she has, because about 66% of those first drafts would result in atrocities.
Which goes into my second point about playing borderline characters, there has to be a tension and an arc there. Like "you want to cross the line, you know you should not cross the line, you will not like the person you would become if you crossed that line again, but it is extremely tempting to cross the line nonetheless.
Like a creepy vivisectionist can work by asking the party "I call dibs on the body, no one else wants it, right?" after the party has killed something and then when you get weird looks respond with "What? It's for science, and it's not as though he's using that body anymore!". Which is going to cause tension with Pharasmans and polite society, but it at least doesn't make you a monster.
I call dibs on the body works for necromancers... not people intent on torturing something to death. The body is already dead, you can't torture it. And literally nobody should be okay with I call dibs on the wounded...
I call dibs on the body works for necromancers... not people intent on torturing something to death.
Sure, but if we excise the fiendish obedience, and just circle back to "creepy science obsessed alchemist who wants to cut things apart to see how they are put together" that can work. "I want to torture them to death" is not something I will *ever* allow at my table.
I call dibs on the body works for necromancers... not people intent on torturing something to death.Sure, but if we excise the fiendish obedience, and just circle back to "creepy science obsessed alchemist who wants to cut things apart to see how they are put together" that can work. "I want to torture them to death" is not something I will *ever* allow at my table.
I second this. Torture is not allowed at my table either. What you're talking about doing is serial-torture Ramsey Bolton-esque stuff, except you have a new Theon every day. I don't think many people are going to enjoy playing with you doing this every single session.
Wow, and the responses keep pouring in! :D So maybe I should explain my thought train a bit more with this character. I should have said this more clearly in the beginning but
1st) starting off he would just be a vivisectionist alchemist with an interest in crafting alchemical items. Yes he is focused on his craft, but he is not open to torture or anything like that. Maybe taking apart the bodies 'For Science!' like PossibleCabbage suggested. As the levels progress, this would turn into an obsession with how the body works and due to his 'research', alignment change.
2nd) This character would definitely be smart enough to understand he needs to keep his darker dealings hidden. Even performing vivisection on a living insect, frog or rat is considered horrible practice by some, and he would know that.
3rd) I understood from the beginning that this might be a borderline case, which is why I was looking for feedback. I am currently seeing how I can keep the same flavor but change it so that he doesn't enter into any evil stuff. The safest route I have found is through Vivisectionist / Toxicant. No obediences, no torturing, but an unhealthy interest in how poisons work. He might still claim the dead bodies and cause some fuss, but stay away from any demonic / torture stuff. I originally went with CN because I see that alignment as the quintessential 'I carve my own path, regardless of what others think'. But maybe True Neutral would fit much better, especially because like someone mentioned: the scientific method requires dedication and precision. Which are not exactly chaotic qualities..
4th) As I saw the character concept originally he would see the 'torture a creature to death every day' as part and parcel of scientific discovery. You know, 'vivisectionist' loosely translated means 'cuts into living things'. But now that I have discussed this a bit with you all it is obvious there is no two ways about this: Taking that obedience is an evil act and he would know that from the first time it was required of him. Thanks for the opportunity to sharpen my thoughts on this!
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Without the demon worshipping stuff, yeah. You're a morally grey, creepy science-guy. Full steam ahead, I say.
In one of my more recent games, we had an alchemist like this. High Int, low Wis and Cha represented an absurdly smart person who was also obsessive in her fields of interest and neglectful in everything else. She often went a couple days between meals, missed a lot of sleep and rarely bathed/groomed. She was an instantly understandable, engaging, and memorable character.
If you did decide to keep the other (obviously evil) stuff, I'd still give you the go-ahead in the right game. Some games handle more graphic or darker content than others. As long as the other players are on board, I'm fine with it. Revel in your evil. And maybe, when the righteous crusaders kick in the door to your laboratory, put some crossbow bolts in your head and burn your tower to the ground, you (the player) will be able to enjoy that on some level, too.
I really don't like saying "absolutely no X in my games", because it really just depends on the group. Some people were victims of emotional manipulation, and so aren't comfortable with charms/compulsions. Someone who lost family members in a fire, though they loved the escapism of fantasy ttrp's, are constantly sort of pre-braced for the inevitable fireball or red dragon to be described in too much detail. And then there are people who were targets of real-life physical violence, but who *want* to use the game to explore that trauma and hopefully achieve some kind of catharsis.
People are complicated. Talk with your players, specifically. Figure out a good communal comfort zone.
I would disallow it because:
A. The character is evil. No ‘borderline’, someone who tortures helpless victims for personal gain is evil, and not in a ‘tragic misunderstood’ way. Roleplaying that sort of stuff may be a buzz for you, but other people are likely to find it unpleasant to be around.
B. Any player who turns up at my table with a L1 character and has already decided their classes, feats, magic items etc etc for 15 levels down the line is pretty much saying “screw you GM, I have no interest in engaging with your campaign.” If you are not at least willing to accept that the plot might have some impact on the character’s development, then why bother playing?
In the game I run the characters are supposed to be the hero’s. This is the preference of the group I game with, and everyone is on board. One of the questions that every character has to ask in order to be played is what makes your character a hero. The vast majority of the characters are of good alignment, but an occasional neutral is acceptable. The neutral characters are not except from the question. In fact they need an even stronger motivation to be a hero, because they don’t have the alignment to fall back on. I don’t see any heroic motivation for this character so it would get the veto.
The main reason we have this rule is to make it easier on the GM to get the players involved. As a GM it is my responsibility to write an adventure. It is up to the players to figure out why their characters will participate. Before we came up with the rule we had occasional new players that wrote up characters with no heroic motivation getting them to go along with the adventure was often difficult. A lot of these players ended up a poor fit for the group, and did not stay long. A couple of them once they understood our play style were able to adjust. Now we are up front with any new players, and let them know in advance.
The build is always inconsequential as regards to the alignment. The only way any evil PC is allowed at the table is if they have valid reasons for wanting to work with and co-operate with the other party members. That means no stealing from the loot, no threatening another PC every five minutes because you're eeeeevil, and absolutely under no circumstances is PvP allowed.
The game is about the group. If you can't be a part of it without trying to destroy it, then you would be asked in no short order to take your evil self to another table.
