I have a question on the first two feats of the Dual-Weapon Warrior Archetype (APG p. 170):
DUAL-WEAPON WARRIOR DEDICATION (FEAT 2)
ARCHETYPE DEDICATION
You’re exceptional in your use of two weapons. You gain the Double Slice fighter feat (Core Rulebook 144). This serves as Double Slice for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.
Special: You can’t select another dedication feat until you gain two other feats from the dual-weapon warrior archetype.
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So the Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication feat grants me the fighter feat 'Double Slice':
DOUBLE SLICE [Two Actions] (FEAT 1)
FIGHTER
Requirements: You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand.
You lash out at your foe with both weapons. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty. Both Strikes must have the same target. If the second Strike is made with a weapon that doesn’t have the agile trait, it takes a –2 penalty.
If both attacks hit, combine their damage, and then add any other applicable effects from both weapons. You add any precision damage only once, to the attack of your choice. Combine the damage from both Strikes and apply resistances and weaknesses only once.
This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty.
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The second Dual-Weapon Warrior feat is:
DUAL THROWER (FEAT 4)
ARCHETYPE
Prerequisites: Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication
You know how to throw two weapons as easily as strike with them. Whenever a dual-weapon warrior feat allows you to make a melee Strike, you can instead make a ranged Strike with a thrown weapon or a one-handed ranged weapon you are wielding. Any effects from these feats that apply to one-handed melee weapons or melee Strikes also apply to one-handed ranged weapons and ranged Strikes.
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Since 'Dual Thrower' allows me to replace melee Strikes with thrown weapon strikes, does this mean that I can use Double Slice with two thrown weapons?
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Gary Bush wrote: I would say yes. OK yes makes sense. I just came across the level 14 feat of the Dual-Weapon Warrior and it specifically applies to Double Slice. So Double Slice should also work with thrown weapons on its own (with Dual Thrower).
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Official errata:
In the definition for the thrown weapon trait, change the first sentence to “You can throw this weapon as a ranged attack, and it is a ranged weapon when thrown.”
It is very clear that melee weapon feats such as Double Slice and Twin Takedown can't generally be used with thrown weapons.
It is equally clear Dual Thrower creates an exception to this rule, for feats in the Dual-Weapon Warrior archetype.
Now the problem.
While I think the intention is for Double Slice to be a dual-weapon warrior feat, it actually isn't. It's just a feat you gain when you take the Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication feat. (Its Nethys entry does not have the line "Archetype Dual-Weapon Warrior" for a reason)
So by RAW, I would feel compelled to say no.
That said, I would definitely allow it myself - and say yes, you can use Double Slice with two thrown weapons, since Double Slice should have been a dual-weapon warrior feat.
Just for comparison, you would still not be allowed to use Twin Takedown with thrown weapons, since that feat clearly isn't a dual-weapon warrior feat any way you look at it.
This should probably be brought to Mark Seifter's attention for future errata consideration.
You definitely bring up valid points here.
It surely would be weird if the only feats that profited from Dual Thrower were Flensing Slice and Dual-Weapon Blitz.
Then again, it would also be weird to be able to use Twin Parry with your two slings.
I agree, it should be clarified in a future errata. It should clearly state whether the Additional Dual-Weapon Warrior feats are compatible with Dual Thrower or not.
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I would say yes.
Technically speaking, the archetype doesn't explicitly say that feats that you gain from the archetype are archetype feats.
However, it's reasonable to think that it's intended to work, because otherwise the earliest you would actually be able to use your L4 Dual Thrower feat is when you take Flensing Slice as a L8 feat. That's absurd, therefore it's reasonable to conclude the opposite.
In general, unless something has gone badly wrong, feats can do something as soon as you take them. Also, there's the similarity in name - Double Slice, Dual Throw and of course their page proximity which all suggest that they're supposed to be used together.
I think you will be much happier if you try to apply common sense to a ruling rather than asking for an errata. Asking for errata for every ruling is a first edition thing.
As Ascalaphus points out, Dual Thrower does nothing if you assume that double slice is not a dual weapon feat. It never occurred to me that dual thrower wouldn't work with double slice.
Oh, you are right! Having to wait until Level 8 would make no sense at all.
Regarding not asking for errata: I just don't want to unbalance the game too much. Having feats with thrown weapons when they are not supposed to be used with thrown weapons could unbalance the game really badly, hence I find it important that it is an official rule.
But yeah, after reading Ascalaphus' post it really IS common sense that Dual Thrower works with the additional feats. Now there is no question about it anymore.
Thank you guys!!
Ascalaphus wrote: I would say yes.
Technically speaking, the archetype doesn't explicitly say that feats that you gain from the archetype are archetype feats.
However, it's reasonable to think that it's intended to work, because otherwise the earliest you would actually be able to use your L4 Dual Thrower feat is when you take Flensing Slice as a L8 feat. That's absurd, therefore it's reasonable to conclude the opposite.
In general, unless something has gone badly wrong, feats can do something as soon as you take them. Also, there's the similarity in name - Double Slice, Dual Throw and of course their page proximity which all suggest that they're supposed to be used together.
It appears we are in agreement.
Streuner wrote: Oh, you are right! Having to wait until Level 8 would make no sense at all.
Regarding not asking for errata: I just don't want to unbalance the game too much. Having feats with thrown weapons when they are not supposed to be used with thrown weapons could unbalance the game really badly, hence I find it important that it is an official rule.
But yeah, after reading Ascalaphus' post it really IS common sense that Dual Thrower works with the additional feats. Now there is no question about it anymore.
Thank you guys!!
There have been several posts pointing out that while it is not RAW to have Dual Thrower work with Dual Slice, it is likely RAI.
Thanks.
Ascalaphus wrote: I would say yes.
Technically speaking, the archetype doesn't explicitly say that feats that you gain from the archetype are archetype feats.
No, because it's a general rule.
AoN wrote: Additional Feats
Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 149
Some archetypes allow other feats beyond those in their entry. These are typically class feats, such as fighter feats that represent certain combat styles. The list of additional feats includes the feat's name, its level, and the page number where it appears. You can take the feat as an archetype feat of that level, meaning it counts toward the number of feats required by the archetype's dedication feat. When selected this way, a feat that normally has a class trait doesn't have that class trait.
True, Perpdepog, but not applicable in this case.
The list of such feats for the Dual-Weapon Warrior archetype (page 170) reads:
Additional Feats: 6th Twin Parry (Core Rulebook 147);
12th Twin Riposte (Core Rulebook 151); 16th Improved
Twin Riposte (Core Rulebook 153), Two-Weapon Flurry
(Core Rulebook 153); 18th Twinned Defense (Core
Rulebook 153)
Note how Dual Slice is not included.
So, again,
Zapp wrote: While I think the intention is for Double Slice to be a dual-weapon warrior feat, it actually isn't. It's just a feat you gain when you take the Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication feat. (Its Nethys entry does not have the line "Archetype Dual-Weapon Warrior" for a reason) This should probably be brought to Paizo's attention for future errata consideration.
Well it's a special case. If Double Slice was considered an archetype feat, then just by taking the dedication you've already got 2 out of the 3 feats needed before you're allowed to pick another dedication. That's probably not intended. On the other hand, you clearly are intended to use Dual Thrower with Double Slice.
So I think the best way to repair this is to just expand Dual Thrower to "archetype feats and Double Slice".
Ascalaphus wrote: Well it's a special case. If Double Slice was considered an archetype feat, then just by taking the dedication you've already got 2 out of the 3 feats needed before you're allowed to pick another dedication. That's probably not intended. On the other hand, you clearly are intended to use Dual Thrower with Double Slice.
So I think the best way to repair this is to just expand Dual Thrower to "archetype feats and Double Slice".
Again we seem in agreement. Of course, more errata could be a long time coming.
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