Are there any class features you would like as a replacement for medium(6th) casting?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Are there any class features you would like as a replacement for medium(6th) casting?
I think that anything expansive enough to replace 6th level casting would be very complicated. And to replicate that for each such class would be squaring that complication. I think that would go counter to what you are trying to accomplish.
I think I agree with Ghostwheel here. There are too many 6th level casting classes to go through them individually and their casting and martial abilities vary so greatly that there can't really be a blanket rule here.
It might be worth splitting this into a few threads or a few questions. Even just Arcane/Divine/Psychic/Alchemical would make it easier to go through.
For what it's worth I answered the 4th-level casters thread, but I can't think of anything good enough to replace 6th level casting.
A single class feature equivalency thread...
I would love to give up spells for the bard for much better bardic music, but that require a big overhaul.
What is this even about? Archetype design, where it's about a specific class? A homebrew setting, where all 6/9 casters get a replacement for their spellcasting?
In any case, losing spellcasting is a huge loss in flexibility and utility, no matter what it's replaced with. In order to the result not being a strict downgrade, the replacement option needs to be very powerful. That in turn risks both the class invalidating other classes, and creating characters that easily overshadow others.
Some of the classes outright stop working without spellcasting (Magus and Warpriest being the worst offenders).
Replacement options would mainly be abilities imitating spells. Wild Shape variants (the Metamorph Alchemist does exactly that), the Summon Monster SLA, stuff like that.
Something I can see is a Bard that selects from a list of effects that get added to specific Bardic Performances. Haste for all party members when using Inspire Courage, the Bard getting a fly speed as long as he's maintaining a performance, a Slow effect added to Fascinate that persists even if the fascinate is broken, things like that. A lot of Masterpieces could be retuooled into such options.
Yeah, that is what I was thinking, that a bard would get to pic a bardic music ability every level with a variety of abilities such granting energy resistance, damaging undead, Haste, extra energy damage with weapons, fasting healing, damaging constructs/objects, confusion, protection from disease/poison, etc. Most abilities would effect all allies or all enemies in the area with a few that are single target.
|
The thing is that 6 level spellcasting is balanced around 3/4bab and d8hd. Get rid of the spellcasting, and you should really be using d10hd and full bab as the class chassis.
I think a spell-less bard could be a cool class. I would write it as a ranger archetype that trades out ranger spells and most ranger class features for bardic music type stuff.
The thing is that 6 level spellcasting is balanced around 3/4bab and d8hd. Get rid of the spellcasting, and you should really be using d10hd and full bab as the class chassis.
I think a spell-less bard could be a cool class. I would write it as a ranger archetype that trades out ranger spells and most ranger class features for bardic music type stuff.
Or a Brawler archetype [Exemplar], or a Monk archetype [Sensei]...
I could have sworn there was already at least one bard archetype that loses spells. There's an Investigstor archetype that loses extracts. It's not ana amazing archetype but from memory it still makes a servocable class.
Anyway some basic assumptions about the game.
Full BAB = d10 hit dice (except Barbarain) = Good Fort Save (except Swashbuckler.
3/4 BAB = d8 hit dice
1/2 BAB = d6 hit dice = good Will saves = 9th level arcane/psychic caster
These are always true for base classes, but Prestige classes can change things.
(Except the Barbarians get bonus HP, and Swashbucklers lose out on their Fort Saves for some inexplicable reason.)
4th level casters have Full BAB and everything that goes with it (except Mediums, they're weird).
6th level casters always have 3/4 BAB and the hit doce to go with it. They aslo usually have more class features than other types of characters.
9th level Divine casters have 3/4 BAB and the hit dice to go with it.
EDIT: Oh and non-casters come in 3/4 BAB and Full BAB variants (and commoners), and come with the saves/etc listed above for their BAB.
EDIT: Oh 2 more things.
Skills come in 3 variants: Good (6+/level), Medium (4+/level) and Bad (2+/level). There doesn't seem to be much correlation to the other stats listed above except that 9th level casters don't get 6+/level, and INT-based casters usually get one step down compared to similar classes. Rogues get 8+ whoch is their special thing (which is also why Investigaters get 6+even though they're INT-based).
Saves come in 2 variants, Good (2 good saves, one bad save) and Bad (1 good save, 2 bad saves). I haven't worked out everything here but it seems that church-based divine casters (Cleric/Inquisitor/Warpriest/Paladon) all get good Fort and Will saves (which I assume is because they tend to fight undead?). There are other classes that get these saves, and I haven't really worked out any other patterns. Also Chained Monk gets 3 good saves as their special thing.
@Dragon78: Could you please answer my initial question(s)?
There's an Investigstor archetype that loses extracts.
A bunch of them, actually. Majordomo, Malice Binder, Sleuth, and Spiritualist, and all of them are horrible.
The aforementioned Alchemist archetype on the other hand is actually good, at least since the release of Bestiary 6. It's badly written, and of course the enormous loss of versatility makes it a downgrade all in all, but it's one of the best martials in the game. That's because unlike the Investigator archetypes, it gains something genuinly good and actually unique (a Wild Shape variant that uses Monstrous Physique, which is easily the best group of polymorph spells).
The psychic detective gives up extracts for psychic magic, love that archetype. Though I wish there were better options for trading off studied combat and studied strike.
Derklord, this is just about my curiosity and what others think about such things. It is always good to get different perspectives on things.
Derklord, this is just about my curiosity and what others think about such things. It is always good to get different perspectives on things.
But you haven't said what the "such things" are. Are we talking about potential archetypes? Class overhauls? A campaign without spellcasting? All these would result in fundamentally different answers. What might make a fun archetype could be horrible if it was the default for the class, and if you wanted to abolish spellcasting altogether, that would alter the scope of the answers.
None of the above, just out of curiosity. I am not currently DMing, I do not write any of these books, I am not home brewing/world building, etc. Also I have nothing against spell casting or magic in general.
|
|
@Dragon78: Could you please answer my initial question(s)?
There's an Investigstor archetype that loses extracts.A bunch of them, actually. Majordomo, Malice Binder, Sleuth, and Spiritualist, and all of them are horrible.
The aforementioned Alchemist archetype on the other hand is actually good, at least since the release of Bestiary 6. It's badly written, and of course the enormous loss of versatility makes it a downgrade all in all, but it's one of the best martials in the game. That's because unlike the Investigator archetypes, it gains something genuinly good and actually unique (a Wild Shape variant that uses Monstrous Physique, which is easily the best group of polymorph spells).
I played a barbarian/metamorph. It was seriously broken, I ended up retiring him at level 8 and making a new character. At one point around level 16, one of the other players made a comment, I wonder who would win in a fight, your current fighter or your retired guy? I was like well obviously this fighter who is twice the level. Then I looked at the numbers and went oh, no it'd be about a 50-50 who'd win.