TL;DR: How viable is Mountain Stance?
It allows a Monk to gain AC matching that of a Champion in heavy armor. And he can do this with little investment in Dexterity.
However, he's limited to using only the stance's Falling Stone Strikes. Those are decent but lack any kind of range. Switching to a ranged weapon or Wild Wind Stance ends Mountain Stance, lowering the monk's AC significantly. The same is true for any form of flying or the use of Flying Kick. Assuming the Monk doesn't boost his Dex over the Stance's cap, of course.
So how does this monk deal with Flying enemies in actual play?
Bonus question: How well does the stance work on another class? Like a Cloistered Cleric who picks up Mountain Stance via Martial Artist or something like that. The AC bonus is still good but is it enough when you're limited to trained/expert unarmed defense? It it worth the investment (feats and action to enter the stance) when you could just go Sentinel and have similar (and at some levels better) AC?
My only experience with it is GMing for a level 1 Mountain Monk. Her build was Human with Mountain and Tiger.
It made for a pretty flexible character. Against really nasty stuff she was a tank, but with an action she could flip over to Tiger to be a mobile Striker. She had 14 DEX I think so her AC wasn’t too awful in Tiger.
AnywYs dealing with Flying... I think any tanks character will struggle. What does a fighter or Champion do? Pull out a backup bow? That drops their AC due to not having a shield, and their damage goes way down due to not being their optimized melee weapon.
Or they get the spellcaster to cast Fly on them.
It’s not always about having your own solution to every problem. Sometimes it is about leaning on your team. Or buying the right potions/elixirs/etc.
You could also dip into Ki spells for a limited ranged capability.
As for multi class I can’t say from my own experience, but I have been noodling on a monk multiclassing into aberrant sorcerer to get the extendable arms........ sort of a Dalsim thing if you know old school Street Fighter 2!
You still want some Dex (perhaps through the 4 stat boosts/5 levels rather than immediately) if only for the Reflex saves.
So yeah, flyers suck for many builds and only gets more frequent so you gotta spend some resources there if they're a weakness or take the AC risk.
Bonus Question: Mountain Stance should work fine on any class that's already unarmed (and doesn't plan on flying for safety), though I'd measure the two class feats as too costly. As mentioned, you can't neglect Reflex saves so you can't neglect Dex completely anyway. I can only imagine the most esoteric builds needing 4 other stats more. So yeah, Sentinel for 1 feat/no actions/works before your turn is superior.
A Cloistered Cleric could use the AC, except why would they need AC so badly as to neglect Reflex (which will often hit them even behind an ally)? And if not neglecting Ref because they have some Dex, that lessens the value of the feats. So not worth it IMO, even for builds outside the box (unless you're aiming to pick up several other Monk/Martial Artist feats too as part of a package, though that'd be unusual and warrant second-guessing.)
Two class feats can also just get you sentinel or whatever for heavy armor proficiency. Full plate is probably a better deal in most cases.
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An other downside comes when you have to equip your character and you get the blacksmith's bill. Unless you're happy wearing non-enchanted regular kit.
You're going to be doing that any way that you build a monk or partial monk. Runes on handwraps and on explorer's clothing ir bracers of armor are a pretty important investment.
Yeah heavy armor costs only matter at low levels, before most could multiclass into mountain Stance anyway.
Thanks for all the feedback!
It's true that other melee characters also have trouble hitting flying enemies, but at least they don't need to basically unequip their armor if they want to use their sling.
Using Martial Artist on something like a Cleric still intrigues me. Mountain Stance is mostly there to reduce the MADness. The real appeal for me is Follow-Up Strike. Getting a second chance to make use of your highest attack bonus just seems really great for classes with low attack. The idea is basically Strike first, and if you miss use Follow-Up Strike. If the first Strike hits, use Grievous Blow instead. Because giving up that 3rd attack for a chance of higher damage on the second one is probably worth it. This all assumes I'm willing (and able) to spend all three action on attacks, of course.
The only good way to pull off a build with those two special attacks is probably an animal Barbarian. But I simply don't like the thought of playing a pure melee guy without much to do besides attacking.
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Thanks for all the feedback!
It's true that other melee characters also have trouble hitting flying enemies, but at least they don't need to basically unequip their armor if they want to use their sling.
Using Martial Artist on something like a Cleric still intrigues me. Mountain Stance is mostly there to reduce the MADness. The real appeal for me is Follow-Up Strike. Getting a second chance to make use of your highest attack bonus just seems really great for classes with low attack. The idea is basically Strike first, and if you miss use Follow-Up Strike. If the first Strike hits, use Grievous Blow instead. Because giving up that 3rd attack for a chance of higher damage on the second one is probably worth it. This all assumes I'm willing (and able) to spend all three action on attacks, of course.
The only good way to pull off a build with those two special attacks is probably an animal Barbarian. But I simply don't like the thought of playing a pure melee guy without much to do besides attacking.
Honestly, you should just get a cantrips for attacking at range. Get Ray of Frost through an ancestry feat. It will probably be better than a bow with no dex investment or investment. And it isn't a strike so it works in the stance.
Honestly many melee characters are better suited to a cantrips than a ranged weapon.
Except Cantrips require a secondary stat & some proficiency in a spell tradition to actually hit. Even a pure caster has lower odds than a martial at many levels. Monks, thankfully, can progress in either Occult or Divine proficiency except those have issues.
Occult has Telekinetic Projectile, which is great, but only goes 30' which makes it iffy you'll be within range if in a venue which suits flyers.
It's also not that great that you'd need Charisma for it as well, or perhaps Int w/ Witch, who gets less Cantrips and an extraneous pet.
(Probably best to go w/ an innate Cantrip if using Charisma.)
Divine uses Wisdom (yay!) (or Int/Cha), yet the worth of its Cantrips is circumstantial, i.e. if you fight fiends or undead mainly, then maybe.
Unless going w/ a major investment for more (like to pick up a great Focus Spell too or get the whole spell package), I would recommend avoiding Cantrips due to high miss chances. (Though getting Cantrips for Shield is certainly worthwhile!)
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Except Cantrips require a secondary stat & some proficiency in a spell tradition to actually hit. Even a pure caster has lower odds than a martial at many levels. Monks, thankfully, can progress in either Occult or Divine proficiency except those have issues.
Occult has Telekinetic Projectile, which is great, but only goes 30' which makes it iffy you'll be within range if in a venue which suits flyers.
It's also not that great that you'd need Charisma for it as well, or perhaps Int w/ Witch, who gets less Cantrips and an extraneous pet.
(Probably best to go w/ an innate Cantrip if using Charisma.)Divine uses Wisdom (yay!) (or Int/Cha), yet the worth of its Cantrips is circumstantial, i.e. if you fight fiends or undead mainly, then maybe.
Unless going w/ a major investment for more (like to pick up a great Focus Spell too or get the whole spell package), I would recommend avoiding Cantrips due to high miss chances. (Though getting Cantrips for Shield is certainly worthwhile!)
The Adapted Cantrip human ancestry feat allows one to make any cantrip a divine or occult cantrip.
The Adapted Cantrip human ancestry feat allows one to make any cantrip a divine or occult cantrip.Except Cantrips require a secondary stat & some proficiency in a spell tradition to actually hit. Even a pure caster has lower odds than a martial at many levels. Monks, thankfully, can progress in either Occult or Divine proficiency except those have issues.
Occult has Telekinetic Projectile, which is great, but only goes 30' which makes it iffy you'll be within range if in a venue which suits flyers.
It's also not that great that you'd need Charisma for it as well, or perhaps Int w/ Witch, who gets less Cantrips and an extraneous pet.
(Probably best to go w/ an innate Cantrip if using Charisma.)Divine uses Wisdom (yay!) (or Int/Cha), yet the worth of its Cantrips is circumstantial, i.e. if you fight fiends or undead mainly, then maybe.
Unless going w/ a major investment for more (like to pick up a great Focus Spell too or get the whole spell package), I would recommend avoiding Cantrips due to high miss chances. (Though getting Cantrips for Shield is certainly worthwhile!)
Yep. And multiclassing lets you pick up whatever. Now, you do need to invest in a mental stat, but you literally HAVE to put a boost in one of those every 5 levels. If you're Mountain Stance you are presumably leaving Dex really low, which frees up even more boosts. Even at trained proficiency you can keep your total bonus higher than your ranged attack bonus. Item bonuses can pull you ahead, but that's also an additional investment and monk ranged weapons are generally crap.
If you have dex investment and martial weapon proficiency you might as well use a bow, but there's a fair chunk of builds in full plate or who'd like to focus on intimidation and other mental skills who cantrips a would choice for. For example, it will take a dex 18 to eclipse the bulwark bonus for reflex saves. Champions might as well snag a cantrip rather than try and juggle ranged weapons. Have you ever seen someone with a weapon and shield in either hand try and pull out a bow? Because it's painful.
My build mindset is that the three save stats get boosted, at least until an 18 (unless going full plate re: Dex), so that casting mental stat IMO should be Wisdom w/ a Monk. (Having one's stats at that level also tightens the crit failure rate to only on a "1" for most enemies.)
If going w/ ample Charisma anyway (or can afford to like a full-plated Champion perhaps), then I'd go w/ innate spells, though that's still a bit long odds at hitting (even if better than one's ranged Strikes).
Not too keen on Adapted Cantrip, as it seems pricey for access to a Cantrip, yet giving no actual slot. And you need the spellcasting class feature, which you might not have at 1st, meaning you're spending a higher level feat. Maybe I'm stingy though.
I'm aware of the MCD options, yet disagree on their value for offense. Even though nearly all of my builds take a Dedication, it's not for casting offensively. Being behind in a stat and in proficiency seems too much IMO. Is it better than nothing? Yes, but it also doesn't come free.
A sword & shield warrior should likely be using javelins, not a bow (except maybe outside to begin), because yes, it'd be painful to swap (and then they may decide to close into melee range just to mess with you, especially if they have AoOs.)
Multiclass for a cantrip @ level 2, ancestral paragon for Adapted Cantrip @ level 3. That’s how I’d build it, at least.
Multiclass for a cantrip @ level 2, ancestral paragon for Adapted Cantrip @ level 3. That’s how I’d build it, at least.
Would you?
Not saying it isn't a route to do what's being talked about here, but rather asking if you'd want to pay that cost? I know I wouldn't (and in some ways that makes Mountain Stance unattractive to me).
My build mindset is that the three save stats get boosted, at least until an 18 (unless going full plate re: Dex), so that casting mental stat IMO should be Wisdom w/ a Monk. (Having one's stats at that level also tightens the crit failure rate to only on a "1" for most enemies.)
While I certainly agree having dexterity is usually optimal, we are talking about a build that is specifically designed to dump in this thread.
If going w/ ample Charisma anyway (or can afford to like a full-plated Champion perhaps), then I'd go w/ innate spells, though that's still a bit long odds at hitting (even if better than one's ranged Strikes).
Well, yeah. It's never gonna be GREAT. But it is pretty good.
A sword & shield warrior should likely be using javelins, not a bow (except maybe outside to begin), because yes, it'd be painful to swap (and then they may decide to close into melee range just to mess with you, especially if they have AoOs.)
I don't think the additional action cost (1 for each attack) justifies it. Javelins take penalties against creatures more than 30 feet away which are going to make you even worse at something you're already bad at. If something is within 30 feet you can usually reach it in melee. Even flyers with a little bit of terrain use.
I'm aware of the MCD options, yet disagree on their value for offense. Even though nearly all of my builds take a Dedication, it's not for casting offensively. Being behind in a stat and in proficiency seems too much IMO. Is it better than nothing? Yes, but it also doesn't come free.
Well, there are other ways to hit fliers and such. But those also take investment and have pretty strict limits. A 1st level ancestry feat or 2nd level dedication are pretty dang cheap. You can get by with javelins or whatever at low levels, but by mid to high levels you are going to start seeing dragons and demons and such that can rain down spells from 100+ feet above you. Even if you get flight, flying upwards is difficult terrain and monsters often have much better fly speeds.
In the case of Mountain Stance, it kind of feels like the ONLY viable option.