I debated what forum this should go into, chose this one...sorry if it belonged in rules or advice
Are the Aldori Sword Feats any good? seriously looking at a lot of them I feel like I can get the same effect somehow else without the penalties. Example +2 Damage when using combat Expertise or +2 Damage period. Am I missing the obvious?
Our GM asked us to make two characters for kingmaker, my secondary is a swordsman with an Aldori dueling blade (and a weird relationship with Pharaasma). Level 1 I rushed to be able to do Dex damage with it (Bravado Swashbuckler, Weapon focus, slaashing Grace). As I look at things to take I see a few of these, but most I feel I can get elsewhere cheaper...Am I wrong?
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I like Alex Agunas’ take on it.
I think, at heart, you have to go all in: feats, archetype, PrC, gear...
Thank you for that, interesting read.
I'm still thinking a lot of them are done better by other feats...
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Are the Aldori Sword Feats any good?
Nope. (Except Redistributed Might)
As you've noticed they're all overshadowed by better feats. But without throwing too much shade on the designers, it feels as if whoever wrote those feats lacked understanding of the game's actual mechanics. There's a constant push to include sub-optimal mechanical choices to emulate the flavor of a "master swordsman".
Which is how you get feats such as Falling Water Gambit that forces you to feint an opponent to get the feat's actual benefit. None of the previous feats in the seven feat long feat path has anything to do with feinting, but it's still there because feinting "felt cool". It's the actual intention of the designers that you spend at least two additional feats for Improved Feint and spend your move action to improve your threat range by 1 to 18-20.
So you must succeed on a skill check every turn while refraining from full-attacking to get the fantastic benefit of getting half of Improved Critical. And it doesn't stack with Improved Critical. And you could have just used a Rapier to have a 18-20 crit range to begin with.
I'm still thinking a lot of them are done better by other feats...
Yup.
That's the main problem with all Aldori content. Other options are superior and you're actively nerfing yourself by wielding a Dueling Sword instead of better weapons. (Mainly because all Aldori Content forces you to wield it one-handed.) Alex Aguna's build is essentially just "have big AC", which can be replicated in a hundred ways. With a better weapon and the exact same playstyle, too.
The only truly unique Aldori content is Dueling Cloak Adept (trait), Disarming Strike (Aldori Defender class feature), and Redistributed Might (feat). And two of those don't even require you to actually wield the Aldori Sword.
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The aldori feats, prc, and archetypes desperately wish for there to be a more mechanically and lorewise fleshed out dueling system integrated into the game.
Its a build for campaigns aimed at martials with low to no magic and even there half the feats are no good.
I see two that might be worth my charater taking
+2 Init / +2 shield (especially if I use a bonus feat, so I cna give it back later if I start using a buckler)
and extra precision damage after a feint
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+2 Init / +2 shield (especially if I use a bonus feat, so I cna give it back later if I start using a buckler)
If you start using a buckler? A MWK Buckler only costs 155 GP and would provide no penalty in return for a +1 Shield Bonus. Even if you lack proficiency with it.
Aldori Dueling Mastery is a dumb feat because it has the feat tax of Quick Draw that is incompatible with the Initiative bonus. You only get the Initiative bonus if you started combat with the sword in hand. Which means you have no need for Quick Draw as you walked around with the weapon in hand before combat began.
and extra precision damage after a feint
Feinting takes actions to do. Even with the Rostland Bravo Swashbuckler's lv 7 ability to feint as a swift action you still need to spend Panache to do so and must succeed on a skill check. If you instead used the Precise Strike ability to double the damage for one attack you'd get equal or superior damage.
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The fact that the feats basically hold no synergy with either the fighter archetype or prestige class makes me think they're in existence solely to splash aldori flavor into other martials.
Like the archetypes and prestige class fit together well, and even if its not the best TACTICAL choice, mechanically its a functional if unexceptional dex "tank".
I feel like the feats are intended to be taken by a rogue or something. At least there's incentive to invest in feinting.
Edit: never mind, just read that last sentence that had no reason to exist in there. does not stack with sneak attack.
Just the worst feat series. Just terrible.
Glad to see it was not my imagination. I still think that the 2 I mentioned are the best of a bad bunch. but I think Ryan might be right about adding flavor. My problem is the first RPG I got into had a real separation of crunch to flavor (Hero System aka Champions) so I naturally do so...
+2 Init / +2 shield (especially if I use a bonus feat, so I cna give it back later if I start using a buckler)If you start using a buckler? A MWK Buckler only costs 155 GP and would provide no penalty in return for a +1 Shield Bonus. Even if you lack proficiency with it.
Aldori Dueling Mastery is a dumb feat because it has the feat tax of Quick Draw that is incompatible with the Initiative bonus. You only get the Initiative bonus if you started combat with the sword in hand. Which means you have no need for Quick Draw as you walked around with the weapon in hand before combat began.
and extra precision damage after a feintFeinting takes actions to do. Even with the Rostland Bravo Swashbuckler's lv 7 ability to feint as a swift action you still need to spend Panache to do so and must succeed on a skill check. If you instead used the Precise Strike ability to double the damage for one attack you'd get equal or superior damage.
Couple issues with buckler (at low levels) my STR is not great and encumbrance is an issue (less when I buy some mitheral). When I posted that I had to double check my level 1 build that I knew flavor text talked about not using one and mechanically took away the proficiency (which I will get back at level 2) or if there was other mechanical issues
Couple issues with buckler (at low levels) my STR is not great and encumbrance is an issue (less when I buy some mitheral).
Ah, I see. The tribulations of a Str-dumped character. But since you'd get Aldori Dueling Mastery at level 4 (the earliest) you should be able to afford your mithral armor by then.
When I posted that I had to double check my level 1 build that I knew flavor text talked about not using one and mechanically took away the proficiency (which I will get back at level 2) or if there was other mechanical issues
Being nonproficient with armor or shields only means that you apply the ACP to attack rolls. If the ACP is 0, there's no need for proficiency at all and you'd still get the Shield bonus.
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Are the Aldori Sword Feats any good? seriously looking at a lot of them I feel like I can get the same effect somehow else without the penalties. Example +2 Damage when using combat Expertise or +2 Damage period. Am I missing the obvious?
Not obvious but what you might be missing:
1) The Aldori Swordlord (fighter archetype + prestige class) was probably the best high AC/good damage martial build. In 2012. Some of these feats made for nice additional bonuses to that build. But then came the swashbuckler in 2014. . .
2) Some of the Aldori feats are good - if you are already heavily committed to the Aldori path. For example, the Aldori style feat you mention above: a swordlord can eventually get to having no penalty when fighting defensively (and a huge bonus to AC), so they will always be fighting defensively.
3) Aldori Style in particular is a prereq for Aldori Style Aegis which. . . lets you do something a swashbuckler can do. Again, not that great but good if you're invested in being an Aldori Swordlord.
4) As several people have pointed out, the Aldori Swordlord is really focused on a "one-on-one non-magical duel" mentality. And if you pit a well-built Swordlord against a well-built swashbuckler, it's close to a toss-up. Probably a slight edge for the swordlord, especially if you are using the dueling and performance combat rules. But if you are in an adventuring party and run into a bunch of creatures in the woods, the swashbuckler is a far better choice.
2) Some of the Aldori feats are good - if you are already heavily committed to the Aldori path. For example, the Aldori style feat you mention above: a swordlord can eventually get to having no penalty when fighting defensively (and a huge bonus to AC), so they will always be fighting defensively.
The thing about those feats is that even in the absolute best scenario they're just equal to other feats but with more restrictions.
Aldori Style forces you to use a specific (suboptimal) weapon, use it one-handed with nothing else, and take certain combat actions to get the benefit. It doesn't reward you for jumping through all these hoops, so there's no reason to take Aldori Style in place of Weapon Specialization if you had the choice.
3) Aldori Style in particular is a prereq for Aldori Style Aegis which. . . lets you do something a swashbuckler can do. Again, not that great but good if you're invested in being an Aldori Swordlord.
It's actually one of the worst Aldori feats of them all. Everything requires swift actions so you can only parry once every two turns, and not in the first round because it's part of a style feat path. And since you're Fighting Defensively/using Combat Expertise your AC is higher and your attack bonus is lower. Which means you'll probably hit below your AC with the parry, making it completely redundant.
First round: Swift action to enter style.
Second round: Swift action to designate a focused target which lasts for 1 round. You take a -2 penalty to AC against all other opponents.
-Immediate action to parry if the focused target attacks you-
Third round: No swift action because you used an immediate between turns.
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The best "Aldori build" imo is someone using the Crane Style path and the Stylish Riposte Weapon Trick. You attack two-handed during your turn and switch to one hand at the end to trigger all the "must have one hand free" conditions when enemies attack you. It's very straightforward and makes use of the unique* property of the Dueling Sword.
*(before Effortless Lace at least)
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2) Some of the Aldori feats are good - if you are already heavily committed to the Aldori path. For example, the Aldori style feat you mention above: a swordlord can eventually get to having no penalty when fighting defensively (and a huge bonus to AC), so they will always be fighting defensively.The thing about those feats is that even in the absolute best scenario they're just equal to other feats but with more restrictions.
Aldori Style forces you to use a specific (suboptimal) weapon, use it one-handed with nothing else, and take certain combat actions to get the benefit. It doesn't reward you for jumping through all these hoops, so there's no reason to take Aldori Style in place of Weapon Specialization if you had the choice.
I go back to the first part of my point: "some of the Aldori feats are good if you are already heavily committed to the Aldori path." A swordlord (archetype and/or prestige class) is already going to be using the weapon one-handed with nothing else. Should a Savage Barbarian take this feat? Of course not. But if you're already an Aldori swordlord, you can take this AND Weapon Specialization.
And I also go back to my last point: the Aldori Swordlord is really a class built around non-magical duels. The defenses are supposed to make duels take many rounds. I absolutely agree that there are many more effective builds for an adventurer. But there like many, many feats, abilities, and items in Pathfinder; there are a few circumstances where a player might want to use them.
As the GM said: "Well, you won. But they're probably not going to invite you back because it was so boring for the spectators."
I go back to the first part of my point: "some of the Aldori feats are good if you are already heavily committed to the Aldori path." A swordlord (archetype and/or prestige class) is already going to be using the weapon one-handed with nothing else. Should a Savage Barbarian take this feat? Of course not. But if you're already an Aldori swordlord, you can take this AND Weapon Specialization.
I get what you're saying but my gripe is with the usage of "good". Aldori Style doesn't become "good" for giving the exact same bonus as a mediocre feat (with less restrictions). For characters who fulfill all those penalizing restrictions, Aldori Style should go above and beyond the normal feats to compensate.
For example giving a +4 dmg bonus instead of +2.
