Its not particularly glamorous, or exciting, but when you really need to remember which damage type it is that ISNT going to cause the Ochre jelly to split while suffering no damage, its a great mitigation to rolling poorly on your first roll.So it is not "interesting" then?
I find it interesting?
Not simply because its fairly unique - no one else gets to try a lot of things a second time at no additional time cost - but also because it presents interesting narrative options and story points where the Summoner and Eidolon might make unique contributions to a scene (such as one knowing something the other does not).
Theres a lot to be said for having mundane utility that allows for the class to accomplish or attempt things which may be simple or "boring", but impossible for others.
Just having the "guaranteed" aid from having an equally trained Eidolon for all your skills is worth considering when looking at how good you are at various skills, at some point.
TBH I get the feeling that you will love WHATEVER paizo comes out with.Well, for some classes, it can be a real benefit: like a mastermind rogue or investigator with Known Weaknesses that get extra stuff for it. Now I agree if it's JUST the amazing ability to roll a normal check without anything extra attached, yeah that's pretty lackluster....When players start falling back on the Recall Knowledge defense, just run away. You know the class is bad when Recall Knowledge becomes the argument as to why they are decent.A second roll on a check that both -
Can't be repeated on a normal failure
And
Provides incomplete information a success, and becomes harder with each successful roll
Is not a negligible benefit.
Its not particularly glamorous, or exciting, but when you really need to remember which damage type it is that ISNT going to cause the Ochre jelly to split while suffering no damage, its a great mitigation to rolling poorly on your first roll.
I dont love the Alchemist (its innately flawed and overcrippled), I loathe the new version of the Oracle and how it plays, and the Magus seems unnecessarily clunky in how it actually plays.
The Bard is the worst sort of unfixably OP, because it overinteracts with the numbers of the system and hyperinflatesthe power of the entire party outside of reason, but does it in a way that makes everyone else feel better, so its hard to want to nerf it. While being boring for many people to play.
I've also called out a number of flaws in the current version of the Summoner playtest.
You can try and subtly imply fanboyism all you like, but its also entirely possible people other than yourself could like something based on legitimate merit that you don't agree about.
I do have a lot of faith in Paizo, because by and large have made an amazing system... but you're making a lot of assumptions here.
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So you qualify an ability that is not "glamorous or exciting" as "interesting", but a flying creature that can retrieve things at a distance, "caw" twice if it sees something ahead from 100ft up, or any other number of things is not "interesting"?
Interesting is subjective in general, but I'm really struggling to see how an Eidolon that can talk/act intelligently (at the cost of the Summoner's actions mind you) is not diminishing returns.
You didn't "gain" anything just because the Eidolon can talk and use skills because the Eidolon costs the Summoner actions to do so and the Summoner can still do that.
Would I rather be able to say "I can recall knowledge twice!" or "I can tell my parakeet to find my friend and then fly back here" with a note on the bird's leg that says "follow the bird".
If you're not making Animal Companions interesting, that sounds like a conceptual problem of the person using the Animal Companion.
And before there's any whining about the above scenario, Crows recognize people's faces, Animal Companions are smarter than normal animals, and the above scenario isn't even remotely complex command (find X return to me).
And guess what, the Eidolon can't even do that because of the 100ft restriction unless they get Untethered...
So you qualify an ability that is not "glamorous or exciting" as "interesting", but a flying creature that can retrieve things at a distance, "caw" twice if it sees something ahead from 100ft up, or any other number of things is not "interesting"?
I think you're assuming I'm more down on Animal Companions than im implying.
Also, I'm well aware of the freaky intelligence of Corvidae in general ;)
Animal Companions are, and should be, pretty cool.
What I'm saying though, is that if youplay down the advantages an Eidolon gets and ignore the massive gap in capability between a animal and what is essentially a "human being"... you are absolutely going to perceive the Eidolon as worse than it is supposed to be. Being a "person" instead of an animal is one of their biggest advantages.
I love my cat and every dog I've ever had, but it would take way more than doubling their intelligence and providing a lot of training to let them even approach the same range of capacity as a human.
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So I don't like the eidolon because it doesn't excel at anything, it's not ineffective but it doesnt shine as a class.
The main benefits KrispyXIV seems to seem in the eidolon are they have two PCs have twice as much spot light time which is very quick way to irritate the people your playing with.
Seriously?
I've been quite clear about this being an issue in other discussions and condemning it. It was the main flaw with the class in 1e, other than it being associated with min maxing.
Its the main reason you need to Share Actions and HP.
Having two characters does not need to mean double the spotlight time, but it can be an interesting opportunity and hook.
That said, the class is about having two characters, meaning that where it excels should reflect that while being restricted enough not to cause issues. Restricting it to the capability of one player, while simulating the advantages of two characters.
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I've yet to see any advantages that you have stated that don't fall into the "Okay, but why not just have the Summoner do that? Wouldn't the Summoner be better at doing that than the Eidolon?"
To which your answer seems to be "Well the Summoner can't in my made up scenario, because reasons".
I am not downplaying the value of speech, skills, or using any combination of that and intelligence to accomplish things.
What I am saying is that the Eidolon being able to do those things helps the player none, because any instance where the Eidolon could do it, the Summoner could likely do it and the Summoner is going to have a lot more opportunities for success at those things than the Eidolon simply by their nature of having Skill increases, Skill Feats, and Spells other than cantrips.
Again, if the Summoner didn't have to be within 100ft, awake, and also spend their actions (if they have them at all ala stunned) to act, then you would have a point.
But until that changes, it really isn't the advantage you claim it to be.
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A second roll on a check that both -
Can't be repeated on a normal failure
And
Provides incomplete information a success, and becomes harder with each successful roll
Is not a negligible benefit.
A second roll that has a greater chance to gain you incorrect information as your mental stats is lower and it doesn't work with any skill feats or abilities you might have. It's something but but as you said it isn't "exciting" or something to hold up as a great benefit. Myself, I'd rather not improve my chances of getting incorrect info.
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What I am saying is that the Eidolon being able to do those things helps the player none, because any instance where the Eidolon could do it, the Summoner could likely do it and the Summoner is going to have a lot more opportunities for success at those things than the Eidolon simply by their nature of having Skill increases, Skill Feats, and Spells other than cantrips.
Eidolons get exactly the same skill increases as their Summoner - and that allows the pair of them to more effectively cover the full range of skills with a more diverse range of ability scores.
A Summoner + Eidolon can increase both Athletics and Diplomacy and essentially be equally as good at both in skill challenges/obstacles.
And rolling twice for a lot of things is being seriously undersold.
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So the things you are arguing as strength (which doesn't so much apply to combat) is that you can be in two places at once doing two different things. I can't think of a better example of twice the spot light than that.
Its a problem with literally all minion classes.
And there's no hypothetical version of Summoner that isn't a minion class.
They've done a lot of good work to minimized this issue, without completely crippling the associated feel of it.
I'm not sure what the class looks like without an intelligent minion.
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And rolling twice for a lot of things is being seriously undersold.
And rolling twice for a lot of things is being seriously oversold. It means greater chances failures and crit failures which are worse that just waiting to make single rolls with the better chance. More doesn't equal better.
And rolling twice for a lot of things is being seriously undersold.And rolling twice for a lot of things is being seriously oversold. It means greater chances failures and crit failures which are worse that just waiting to make single rolls with the better chance. More doesn't equal better.
It is almost never true that your chance for critical failure increases by more than your increased chance for success, especially since you aren't committed to a second roll if the first succeeds.
For most at level checks, Trained is sufficient to avoid a critical failure on anything but a 1 and succeed 35+% of the time.
This is a non-issue.
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What I am saying is that the Eidolon being able to do those things helps the player none, because any instance where the Eidolon could do it, the Summoner could likely do it and the Summoner is going to have a lot more opportunities for success at those things than the Eidolon simply by their nature of having Skill increases, Skill Feats, and Spells other than cantrips.
Eidolons get exactly the same skill increases as their Summoner - and that allows the pair of them to more effectively cover the full range of skills with a more diverse range of ability scores.
A Summoner + Eidolon can increase both Athletics and Diplomacy and essentially be equally as good at both in skill challenges/obstacles.
And rolling twice for a lot of things is being seriously undersold.
As Graystone points out, being marginally effective at those things is great when there are no potentials for failure.
But that's not the case.
And again, I am asking you, show me the scenarios you're talking about.
You say Athletics, okay, let's evaluate it:
- You retain your MAP for Trip/Grapple/etc. so no benefit really at all
How about Diplomacy:
- Gather Information is out without Untethered, and honestly, there a Skill Feats that serve widespread gathering of info better
- Request/Make An Impression generally you can't request more than one thing and you can't Make an Impression twice, and generally there are consequences for failures and multiple occurences for both (critical failures are just one point of contention).
So while having multiple increases across two of them is great, considering the Eidolon's strengths and limitations based on the Skill Feats it has available and that its stats are relatively confined to the physical stats (you're not beating on level checks in CHA/INT as an Eidolon), we're talking about minimal coverage.
The best one is probably Demoralize, but again, CHA based and no Skill Feats makes that a tough thing to be good at as an Eidolon.
You're placing a lot of values on vague scenarios that you haven't really been able to produce examples of IMO.
And lets not forget the crux of the argument, which was that you said this makes the more interesting than an Animal Companion.
When we've established that Eidolons don't add anything new they basically allow rolling twice on skills.
Whereas the Bird, Wolf, etc. all offer unique mechanics that more often than not the Character class itself cannot do on its own.
Lest we forget that Specialized Companions are a thing, Speak with Animals is a thing, Wild Empathy is a thing, etc.
If you're looking for the "oh!" moment where I decide this very marginal and limited window of utility value is going to suddenly dawn on me, then it probably won't.
You're not going to convince me that permanent flight, scent, and echolocation (all level 1 choices for any AC user) are less valuable narratively or tactically for a player when the Eidolon, as you say, double dips in all the same ponds as the Summoner.
And again, I am asking you, show me the scenarios you're talking about.
You say Athletics, okay, let's evaluate it:
- You retain your MAP for Trip/Grapple/etc. so no benefit really at all
You never run into Obstacles overcome by Athletics outside of combat? Its the primary fallback for opening doors after thievery, breaking objects, and removing or navigating barriers.
Its one of the more broadly useful Encounter Mode skills, and Eidolons can use it with the best outside of combat.
How about Diplomacy:- Gather Information is out without Untethered, and honestly, there a Skill Feats that serve widespread gathering of info better
- Request/Make An Impression generally you can't request more than one thing and you can't Make an Impression twice, and generally there are consequences for failures and multiple occurences for both (critical failures are just one point of contention).
If its a difficult test, then Summoners are the Charisma based class with a guaranteed assist that doesnt require another players commitment.
That is not nothing.
So while having multiple increases across two of them is great, considering the Eidolon's strengths and limitations based on the Skill Feats it has available and that its stats are relatively confined to the physical stats (you're not beating on level checks in CHA/INT as an Eidolon), we're talking about minimal coverage.
Moderate gains, and reasonable advantages.
Expecting a Summon to beat a rogue in skills is unreasonable. Summoners gaining marginal bonuses that let them do skills with advantages over individuals working alone is appropriate.
You seem to be looking for some groundbreaking, massive advantage here... and that's all in Evolution Surge or Evolution feats.
The Summoner + Eidolon has unique, marginal advantages on skills and Encounter mode that make them unique without invalidating classes that specialize in skills.
I'm not saying they're the new rogue. I'm saying they make reasonable and unique contributions others can't, by virtue of having an extra "Exploration" action.
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Let's say you roll once. DC is say 17. You have a +7 to your roll at level 1.
17 is not a typical DC at level 1.
15 is, and significantly changes the number in your example away from favoring critical failures.
And I can confirm from experience that published adventure examples stick pretty close to the DC by level chart, except with Hazards which typically are opposed by Perception - which there are no penalties for critical failure on.
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Let's say you roll once. DC is say 17. You have a +7 to your roll at level 1.17 is not a typical DC at level 1.
15 is, and significantly changes the number in your example away from favoring critical failures.
And I can confirm from experience that published adventure examples stick pretty close to the DC by level chart, except with Hazards which typically are opposed by Perception - which there are no penalties for critical failure on.
Even at 15, you're more likely to fail and crit fail...
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You never run into Obstacles overcome by Athletics outside of combat? Its the primary fallback for opening doors after thievery, breaking objects, and removing or navigating barriers.
Its one of the more broadly useful Encounter Mode skills, and Eidolons can use it with the best outside of combat.
Uh, what obstacles are you referring to that somehow making "two checks" helps?
Climb? You had to make two checks anyways, because you do have separate bodies unless you unmanifest the Eidolon.
If the Eidolon could manifest you then it would be good that either of you could, but that's not the case.
Care to provide an actual scenario where this "two roll" athletics check is "super beneficial"? You know, an example like I've been asking for and not just criteria that makes it seem good.
So while having multiple increases across two of them is great, If its a difficult test, then Summoners are the Charisma based class with a guaranteed assist that doesnt require another players commitment.
Lol wut? How is it a guaranteed assist? We just established they are unlikely to succeed and they aren't adding anything new.
And again, you said "more interesting", and assist isn't more interesting (and honestly some Animal Companions do have the ability to assist, even if not explicitly on the skill check.
I'm not saying they're the new rogue. I'm saying they make reasonable and unique contributions others can't, by virtue of having an extra "Exploration" action.
Of course not.
But they're not even better at most skills than an AC would be for helping their respective player succeed at the original skill.
And even if all that were true, and the Summoner was good at handling Skills for the Summoner, it still wouldn't be providing any new narrative opportunities because the Summoner can already do all those things.
An Animal Companion can use scent to help track, use flight to scout for water, where to hide, or if enemies are coming. Echolocation to hear enemies from inside a room. Actually have a Mount at level 1. Heck some of them have unique support benefits like Cover or decreased critical failures on Athletics checks.
Those abilities are not something the Druid/Summoner can do on their own.
Rerolling knowledge at the lower bonus is about the equivalent of Dubious Knowledge Skill Feat at best, and I'd argue it's worse because at least you're guaranteed to succeed at least in part on DK.
Let's just drop it. I do not agree that narratively the Summoner's Eidolon presents anything novel or even remotely valuable.
Combat wise, I actually think they're not that far off in some respects, but narratively? Absolutely less interesting than an Animal Companion to me.
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And to add to what someone else mentioned earlier, if the only benefit the Eidolon is providing is another party roll on RK, Make an Impression, etc. you are taking more of the spotlight.
And in the case of diminishing returns, and I play RK to be really powerful (I give literal numeric values and allow general request attachments), in a lot of these cases another Party member would be far suited to take over if the Summoner failed at something.
And out of combat, there's not really the "action limitation" aspect for things like Make an Impression to merit not just asking the Party Bard to try instead or the Barbarian to Coerce or any number of other alternatives.
That is sort of a spotlight hog, especially if its one of the only narrative ways for an Eidolon to derive "value".
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Honestly, i was against it for most of the early playtest but the more and more i see people's feedback, the more i start to think that Eidolons simply being stronger Animal Companions would make more sense.
Here's what I think could work:
1. You keep Act Together and have it apply only to the Eidolon Companion (but I could see Summoner's that want to focus Summoning get it for anything with the Minion trait too).
2. You make an "Eidolon Evolution" at level 1 that completely alters the base AC in terms of look, appearance, but keeps the base statistics across the board. This is your "Eidolon Evolution Template" (Angel, Dragon, Beast, Ghost) which grants the appropriate scaling benefits for its form.
3. Give them automatic progression on Action Economy Feats (Mature Companion, etc.)
4. Keep the same Skills/Intellect level as is current
5. Suddenly we've solved the AC + Eidolon power issue, which if we're being honest, I thought it was WAY too good to have both and pretty disruptive in terms of length of turns.
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Now we've dealt with the two people suffer from action taxing issue, we've dealt with the customization issue, we didn't introduce a new system to do it, we did differentiate these Animal Companions as objectively stronger and more narratively influential, and suddenly Eidolon Evolutions look a LOT sweeter.
Amphibious sounds bad right? Well sure, until you combine it with Echolocation and Flight, and now its kinda like "hmmm, ya know, that's kinda interesting".
The idea might need some work, but to me I think choosing a Dragon could be really cool for instance.
A Dragon "Wolf" and a Dragon "Snake" and a Dragon "Bird" could be a Linnorm vs. Sovereign Dragon vs. True Dragon.
That already adds a lot of variation on the types of those things.
The tricky part is the humanoid like options (ghost and angel), but not that problematic to me to discount it as an idea.