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I've had some experiences with the Magus, to which you can find the reports here
[Actual Play] So I got to play a Magus and it felt awkward..., here
Richienvh's actual play - round 2 and here (as a GM)
PFS Quest 08 - Shadows of the Black Sovereign Playtest Report
This report is a continuation of the first. I am in a campaign in which I used to play a Wizard with Fighter MCD whose main routine was to spam true strike and shocking grasps. I tried to emulate the Magus concept as best as I could, so, naturally and with my GM's blessing, converted my character.
We're currently in a desert-themed adventure set in our homebrew world. We were wading this huge desert in search of a Hamunaptra-like city. The only sign of its existence was a distant ember, which some said was a large ruby, that appeared in the horizon (Return of the Mummy feelings). We were looking for the evil Stone of Tut-Kareth to bribe a demoness to let us take a sappling of the World Tree from her garden.
We play once every two weeks and, during the last session, we had faced a Purple Worm. My Magus played poorly and I did not enjoy trying to port the Shocking Grasp routine to the new class' chassis.
So I read these forums, got some very interesting insights on tactics, playstyles, items and even some much needed clarifications on what types of Strikes could be used to deliver Striking Spell.
Hence, with my GM's blessing, I rebuilt my Magus as follows:
Human (Versatile), Artisan, Level 12 Magus
Synthesis: Sustaining Steel (changed from slide because I favored using a
Bastard Sword in a two-handed fashion and, during my first playthrough, I overlooked the free-hand requirement for the Slide Magus)
Ability Scores: STR 20, DEX 16, CON 18, INT 18, WIS 10, CHA 10.
AC 33 (with a +2 Studded Leather Armor)
Weapon: I used to wield a +2 greater striking shocking bastard sword. We got to a mirage-like town inbetween tables and the GM let me sell it. I used the money along with some savings to get a +1 shifting staff of divination.
Other gear: Even before my conversion, my character had a Ring of Wizardry (type III) and a Bandolier with a few potions of quickness.
Ancestry Feats: Natural Ambition, Clever Improviser, Multi-talented
Skill Feats: Crafter's Appraisal, Quick Repair, Improvise Tool, Specialty Crafting (from Background), Impeccable Crafter, Bon Mot and Courtly Graces
General Feats: Fleet, Additional Lore (Academia Lore), Toughness (from Versatile)
Magus Feats:Combat Assessment (Natural Ambition) Cantrip Expansion, Bespell Strikes, Martial Caster, Standby Spell and Runic Impression
Archetypes: Fighter Dedication (Multi-talented)
Archetype Feats: Basic Maneuver (Snagging Strike). I know I was going to use the sword two-handed, but I thought I could add some versatility by having these one-handed Strikes I could combine with something like produce flame.
Cantrips: Chill Touch, Daze, Electric Arc, Produce Flame, Telekinetic Projectile, Detect Magic, Mage Hand
Spells: True Strike (from staff of Divination), Mirror Image (Ring), Slow (Ring), Paralyze (Ring), Phantasmal Killer (lvl. 5), Vampiric Touch (lvl. 5), Flesh to Stone (lvl. 6), Teleport (lvl. 6 - my party really likes me to move them around). Sudden Bolt was my Standby Spell.
A minor nitpick I was really disappointed to discover Brutish Shove had the press trait. It would be so awesome if we had an attack inducing maneuver like snagging strike that worked with two-handed weapons, but that's not a problem.
How it played We arrived at the temple, found a secret entrance thanks to my use of detect magic and got to a barely lit corridor.
The GM asked for Perception checks and the Ranger heard a faint hum as they touched their ear to the wall. Something was in the other side of it. The Ranger pulled their Onyx Dog Wondrous Figurine and the dog darted toward a corner that would lead to an entrance said room (we assumed). The dog enters the room with us trailing it, there is a cracking sound and the dog starts barking, then whining.
We draw our weapons and we have a hilarious moment where everybody was ready to go and my Magus started chugging the potion of quickness and casting Potency and Runic Impression - the other players had not seen me do that in the previous session - they were like 'dude, the dog's there!'
The first encounter was a low threat encounter against three lvl 9 giant mosquitoes that had been reanimated from statues - our GM adapted them with the monster creation rules.
I cast Produce Flame, wield the sword two-handed and Stride in, engaging with Mosquito 1. I hit with the Melee Strike for 20 something damage and hit with the Produce Flame for another 20.
Mosquito 2 hits Champion with its proboscis attack and grabs them. Champion makes the save against Septic Malaria. then, the mosquito Blood Drains the Champion. Mosquito 3 Strides toward the Ranger, hits them once with Proboscis, does not Grab and Ranger succeeds at their roll against Malaria. Third action is a Strike that misses.
Mosquito 1 hits and grabs me once. I too make my save.
Ranger Strides away from the Mosquito 3, commands Vulture to attack, hitting, and hunted shoots it (rules oversight since they were hunting Mosquito 1) with two hits.
Champion raises shield and keeps lioning Mosquito 2.
Having thought that the insect would suffer from fire and found it had no such weaknesses, I decide to use Telekinetic Projectile, succeed on my flat-check and hit with the weapon and the spell, finishing Mosquito 1. I then Stride toward the Champion and Mosquito 2 (the GM had some high rolls and the Champion was not struggling but had lost the most HP between us)
Mosquito 3 hits Vulture once, Vulture makes their save, then Strides towards Ranger and hits them once. They fail their save and become sickened 1.
Mosquito 2 keeps blood draining champion (our GM ruled that it could do that, but the drained 1 never got worse)
Ranger disengages from Mosquito 3, commands Vulture to engage and attack and hunted shoots it once more, critting once and killing it.
Champion raises shield and casts Lay on Hands on themselves. Attempts to break from the grab, but fails.
I imbue produce flame and crit with my weapon Strike due to getting a flank. The spell attack is also a Nat 20 and the Mosquito is looking bad. I Strike with my last action and kill it.
Onyx dog's alive, so we keep exploring, reaching a room that has this large well filled with water. We study some hieroglyphs, inffer something about a being wanting to return to its master and carry on towards another chamber where there are two Giang Slugs and two Deadly Mantises(Moderate, according to the GM)
Ranger starts by Hunting Slug 1 and shooting it thrice for three hits. I drink another potion (had 8 on me), Potency+Rune myself and engage with Slug 2. Slugs 1 and 2 use trample to our dismay. We roll badly, suffer 30 from 40 damage each and are left in their Mucus trail. Mantis 2 leaps, grabs ranger and flings them toward the Champion!, Mantis 1 comes towards us but was too far away to make it this round.
Champion throws the torch at the middle of the room, draws warhammer and Strides toward Mantis 1.
Ranger, commands Vulture to attack Slug 1 and then shoots it some more. They hit with every Strike.
I Stride toward Slug 2, cast 5th level Sudden Bolt and crit with it, killing Slug 2 in one take. We have this description of how I made an electric chainsaw out of my sword and cut it in half.
Slug 1 keeps trampling away. At this point, Champion is struggling a bit (forgot to use Lay on Hands during the second exploration phase) Mantis 1 leaps, takes champion and flings them at ranger. Mantis 2 does the same with ranger and the champion.
Champion Strides and Strikes Mantis 1 once, then burns 1 focus point for Lay on Hands on themselves.
Ranger keeps chipping at Slug 1 and kills it. However, they are very near Mantis 2.
I become desperate and cast Flesh to Stone, striding toward Mantis 1, flanking and hitting it with a crit (nat 20) Mantis one critically fails their save (nat 1 - roll20 shannenigans) and becomes slowed 2
Mantis 2 leaps and flings ranger at champion. Mantis one hits and crits me. Succeeds at first Fort save and becomes slowed one instead.
Champion raises shield and attempts to get in the way of Mantis 2 and the Ranger.
Ranger starts chipping at Mantis 2.
I decide to leave Mantis 1 be, Stride and cast Electric Arc on both Mantises. Do half damage, then I strike at Mantis 2 and miss.
Mantis 1 leaps and grabs me, then crit fails their fort save (another nat 1) and becomes stone.
Mantis 2 is really castigating the Ranger. Champion manages to hit it twice
Ranger then finishes Mantis 2 off.
We explore some more and meet the ghost of the high priest from that temple. He tells us of a Phoenix that is attop the builiding, mentioning that he and his acolytes attempted to corrupt it. They managed to do so, but the Phoenix killed them in the process. Now, it rages on, the stone of Tut-Kareth embedded in its chest and tormenting it forever.
Thus, we ascend, make it through a very complicate puzzle and meet the phoenix.
The Phoenix (Extreme)
I will say that I managed to hit the Phoenix with a 6th level Sudden Bolt (bye bye teleport) which just got through due to True Strike. No crits this time around.
Would have been taken out, if not for Mirror Image, which I also precast.Made the mistake of attempting to cast Phantasmal Killer, which the Phoenix just crit-succeeded against. Were it not for the fact that it was Evil due to the stone and that our Champion dealt a lot of Good damage to it via Blade of Justice, we would have TPK'ed.
The Phoenix got ressurrected and we got our stone, heading on.
My impressions:
- The Magus played really well against the lower-leveled foes up to the point that it did not need to flank to get its routine going. The class really shone, damage-wise, especially in comparison to the other two.
- Although it was a painful separation, there just wasn't any point to not favoring Sudden Bolt over Shocking Grasp. An extra die, the possibility of causing half damage and the fact that it is a save spell make it arguably a better alternative to those wishing o recreate the good ol' electric blade Magus.
- I still struggled against the lvl+ enemy. I thought that, with the lower-levelled enemies, I was hitting as much as the others and outdamaging them. With the lvl+ enemy, I still kept hitting (martially) as much as the others, but my damage really lagged behind theirs due to the fact that the crit mechanic was so much harder to achieve.
- The fact that I was forced to spend two of my slotted spells during the previous fight, and that produce flame didn't work on the phoenix could have contributed to that.
- The accuracy gap we have discussed so much was only felt in the level+ encounter. I don't know if that was the intention. My impression was that I was this minion detroyer from hell and when I got to the big baddie, we all struggled, but I kind of felt like being slowed 2. Did not think folding the two rolls was a need per se. Kept wondering if I wouldn't have been just fine if the spell attack was made with the same proficiency bonus as the weapon.
- That said, I didn't feel as frustrated as the other time around. Replacing attack spells with save spells is the way to go..
- Part of me really wished for our witch to cast Heroism on me. Tried Bon Mot, but the Will DC was just very very high.
- Still, the phoenix didn't fly a lot and I'm pretty sure we saw huge waves of benevolence from our GM. We were able to flank, though.
- Those temp HP on Sustaining Steel really helped.
- Things that helped over my previous experience True Strike and the Quickened condition allowed me to stay mobile, so I did not feel much difference between going from Slide to Sustaining Steel
- Snagging Strike helped me during the phoenix combat. I remember using it to set up two Telekinetic Strikes, one which hit. Would be nice for Magus to get access to low level combat maneuvers like this without needing an archetype, although, I don't know if that would work.
- Mirror Image saved my life, so I feel that having space for such spells, either in the form of limited slots, or martial caster-like feats, like some people have pointed out, could be beneficial.
I hope to get one more playthrough before the playtest is over and am considering having Illusory Creature for my own personal flanker.
I was under the effects of haste during all encounters, so what I’m describing is:
1st action Stride
2nd and 3rd Cast
4th Strike to deliver spell
I had a bandolier with eight potions of quickness. Drunk one before encounter 1, one before encounter 3 and one during 1st round of encounter 2
That said, I apologize if I got an order of actions wrong. My notes were scribbled by hand during the playthrough and then I compiled them here, which is why I didn’t have many details on encounter 3 (was really tired/tense with the encounter). I tried to remain as accurate as possible, though
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Man, I really hope we get confirmation about staves being usable by magi and staves being usable while shifted.
Sure! I just liberality went with it!
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I still feel uneasy about haste and staves feeling so mandatory for the Magus.
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I still feel uneasy about haste and staves feeling so mandatory for the Magus.
Yeah, if haste/true strike are mandatory then I'll just write off the class altogether.
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I still feel uneasy about haste and staves feeling so mandatory for the Magus.Yeah, if haste/true strike are mandatory then I'll just write off the class altogether.
The fact that haste exists, is always going to make a gish a character that chooses to use it better off than one that doesn't. The same is vaguely true for true strike, especially because the divination staff is such a reasonably priced and easy to pick up item, but a crit fishing fighter is just as likely to pick one up and use it for their killer pick build as the magus is, so neither of theses spells are unique to the magus in their utility to a martial character with access to magic, either through spell slots or items.
The only reason that the true strike thing is particularly unique to the magus is because the magus, with their whole combine a spell and a weapon strike into one action, is always going to massively benefit from anything they can do to make that attack as accurate as possible. It is only the splitting the rolls in two that keep single attack accuracy boosting from being an even greater requirement of the class. So then the option becomes to give the striking spell activity some form of the fortune trait, to take away the spell that feels like its entire existence is predicated on finding ways to focus attacks into a single attack roll, which would be tricky without turning striking spell into a single multi-action activity, and killing its versatility, or to keep the mechanic so that the true strike spell is beneficial, but costly to employ, so that it is only really worth it on attacks where you are expending significant resources in boosting your damage.
It doesn't sound like the developers are in love with either option either, but it is pretty clear that the benefits of haste were so obvious to the class that they built in a way for the magus to have access to it in every combat if they couldn't find another way to access it. It is hard to imagine a version of the magus that won't be looking to haste every encounter.
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Striking Spell needs to either be 2 actions or if it remains effectively 3 actions, then it needs a mini version of the Slide Synthesis. Either you can Step as part of Striking Spell or can Stride up to half your speed (Slide allowing you to move the full distance). Otherwise, Sustaining Steel and any other melee synthesis will heavily rely on quicken effects in order to do their class feature. That isn't great for early level Magus that don't have access to Haste or gold to spend on plenty of quicken consumables.
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The fact that haste exists, is always going to make a gish a character that chooses to use it better off than one that doesn't.
I don't mind if it's there and feels like a boost: I don't like how it is currently where it can feel like a necessity instead of a nice bonus when possible. Same with true strike: cool if you can have it but have it not feel required instead of having to look for every hoop to jump through for a staff and every consumable you can find to tape onto your weapon just to feel on par with other martials.
One sounds fine and the other sounds really un-fun and unsatisfying.
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As graystone said. As of now it still feels like until you get haste (and maybe to a lesser extent spammable true strike, that one depending if you're usually lucky or not) your class is barely functionning.
To be honest, I only used True Strike during encounter 3.
With Haste, I felt the need was there, especially since I had the potions, which gave me an improved Hasted Assault due to the Bandolier.
I feel that the experience would not have been so satisfying had I not been quickened. I’d probably lag a turn behind the others and, since we were all rolling well, my participation would have been diminished.
Don’t know what that means for the class as a whole because my Wizard/Fighter routine already relied on Haste to get True Strike + Shocking Grasp + Strike
I also kept wondering how the class would do in lower levels (1, 2) during which these tools were not readly available
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I also kept wondering how the class would do in lower levels (1, 2) during which these tools were not readly available
I'm playing a 3rd level Magus (was 2nd level last session). Without being a Slide Magus, I'm not sure if I would have ever gotten Striking Spell off. Enemies move around so much in 2e. If you're facing enemies with reach, it gets even tricker. Slide let me constantly get in position, especially flanking position, to get off Striking Spell.
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Nice write up, thanks for sharing!
I also kept wondering how the class would do in lower levels (1, 2) during which these tools were not readly availableI'm playing a 3rd level Magus (was 2nd level last session). Without being a Slide Magus, I'm not sure if I would have ever gotten Striking Spell off. Enemies move around so much in 2e. If you're facing enemies with reach, it gets even tricker. Slide let me constantly get in position, especially flanking position, to get off Striking Spell.
With Sustaining Steel, my move rounds are Striking Spell + Message to get my temp hp and then smash something with my maul. In general 2 straight maul hits are better than Striking Spell with a damage cantrip so most times it's message or a spell slot spell for me.
Shooting Star of course doesn't have to move as much but really doesn't have much reason to use Striking Spell: why do that when you can strike then cast an electric arc 2 creatures?
I also kept wondering how the class would do in lower levels (1, 2) during which these tools were not readly availableI'm playing a 3rd level Magus (was 2nd level last session). Without being a Slide Magus, I'm not sure if I would have ever gotten Striking Spell off. Enemies move around so much in 2e. If you're facing enemies with reach, it gets even tricker. Slide let me constantly get in position, especially flanking position, to get off Striking Spell.
Yeah. I felt that especially during my second encounter, in which the enemies had abilities that triggered as part of their movement.
I know this may sound like a strange idea, but maybe the Magus having a way to get Attack of Opportunity like the Barbarian and Champ (or even investing in it through a Fighter Dedication) could help in that regard.
I mean, non-hasted turn would be something like Stride, Striking Spell then Cast then the Magus would get a chance to deliver if the enemy got away from them.
With Sustaining Steel, my move rounds are Striking Spell + Message to get my temp hp and then smash something with my maul. In general 2 straight maul hits are better than Striking Spell with a damage cantrip so most times it's message or a spell slot spell for me.
Shooting Star of course doesn't have to move as much but really doesn't have much reason to use Striking Spell: why do that when you can strike then cast an electric arc 2 creatures?
I remember seeing you post this idea but had forgotten about it. Nice one!
Shooting Star is in a strange situation that they're essentially a quick magic ammunition crafter. I had a player that combined it with Eldritch Archer during some test encounters. They only ever used Striking Spell for specific debuffs
I also kept wondering how the class would do in lower levels (1, 2) during which these tools were not readly availableI'm playing a 3rd level Magus (was 2nd level last session). Without being a Slide Magus, I'm not sure if I would have ever gotten Striking Spell off. Enemies move around so much in 2e. If you're facing enemies with reach, it gets even tricker. Slide let me constantly get in position, especially flanking position, to get off Striking Spell.With Sustaining Steel, my move rounds are Striking Spell + Message to get my temp hp and then smash something with my maul. In general 2 straight maul hits are better than Striking Spell with a damage cantrip so most times it's message or a spell slot spell for me.
Shooting Star of course doesn't have to move as much but really doesn't have much reason to use Striking Spell: why do that when you can strike then cast an electric arc 2 creatures?
Message is a strange choice, not sure if my DM would be ok with it. But I'm hoping in the new book, we get some 1 action cantrips that make Sustaining Steel Magus less clunky. Right now, my big issue with the Magus is how clunky Striking Spell is, but new cantrips could help with that.
At 3rd level, cantrips are actually decent. My longsword is dealing 1d8+4 (avg 8.5) and my cantrips deal 2d4+3 (avg 8), so Spell Strike is about the same as two strikes for my Magus. However, I don't have to deal with MAP, and I have that crit benefit of Striking Spell (helped me crit on Produce Flame). Also cantrips deal magical damage which can help bypass resistances. Also the crit effects of cantrips are nice like Produce Flame's persistent fire damage.
What do you mean by that? Bandolier doesn't do anything to improve potion use, it's still 2 actions. So it would be: Free Action to let go of the two-handed weapon with one hand, Interact action to take the potion from the bandolier, Interact action to drink it, Interact action to re-grip the weapon with both hands. 3 actions in total.To be honest, I only used True Strike during encounter 3.
With Haste, I felt the need was there, especially since I had the potions, which gave me an improved Hasted Assault due to the Bandolier.
My bad then. Thought it allowed me to draw the item as part of the Interact action required to use it, but I see now that that only applies to tools. Have to admit Interact actions are not my forte.
Still, it only slightly alters my first turn in the second encounter, since I drunk the other potions while in exploration mode.
Message is a strange choice, not sure if my DM would be ok with it.
I'm not sure why a DM would disallow it as it " can target one creature or object": damage/negative effects aren't a requirement. You could cast Heal if you wanted to. ;)
But I'm hoping in the new book, we get some 1 action cantrips that make Sustaining Steel Magus less clunky. Right now, my big issue with the Magus is how clunky Striking Spell is, but new cantrips could help with that.
Yep, I agree: either some 1 action cantrips [like int elemental damage] would be great or they could roll the strike into the spellstrike spell but something should be done to make action costs more reasonable.
At 3rd level, cantrips are actually decent. My longsword is dealing 1d8+4 (avg 8.5) and my cantrips deal 2d4+3 (avg 8), so Spell Strike is about the same as two strikes for my Magus.
Sure with a longsword: try it with a maul. 1d12+4 is doing more consistently with a second strike. And with a longsword and it gets worse the larger the weapon die goes, especially when you start multiplying dice for runes.
However, I don't have to deal with MAPSure if you cast a save spell but then why not just cast it? Say electric arc and hit 2 people?
and I have that crit benefit of Striking Spell
Which is only a benefit if you're crit fishing which holds 0% interest for me.
Also cantrips deal magical damage which can help bypass resistances.Doesn't require spellstrike to do.
Also the crit effects of cantrips are nice like Produce Flame's persistent fire damage.
As a spell attack roll you have a worse chance to hit AND MAP's to deal with so at best the chance of getting a crit first offsets the greater chance to fail so it's a push.
''
I don't disagree with a lot of what you said, but at low levels, I'm not seeing many of those problems (yet). And yes, I could use a Maul for higher damage, but longsword lets me use Slide Synthesis, which IMO is the best Synthesis action economy wise. I understand you can use Message, but that's not really exciting for me and seems cheesy. So with the current 2 action damage cantrips, Sustaining Steel is too restricting.
In terms of damage, my cantrips will stay competitive with my longsword damage. By 20th level, longsword does 4d8+6 and my cantrips deal 10d4+5, which on average is 24 vs 27 (cantrip deals slightly more damage). Yeah, a maul deals more (average 32), but I like Slide Synthesis too much. A normal caster/martial uses 3 actions to cast a cantrip and strike, but has no actions to move. My Magus can Striking Spell to do the same but also get a free Stride. That alone makes my Magus better at casting and slashing every round.
Overall, my experience so far with the Magus has been surprisingly positive. I desperately wanted to play a gish in 2e, but none of the previous options were satisfying. Wizard/Fighter or Fighter/Wizard both have their own sets of problems. With Magus, I get decent HP, good armor/weapon proficiency, good number of cantrips, and some slot spells right away.
I think the base class is decent and gives you what you need right away to be a gish, but there definitely are some problems with Striking Spell's clunkiness, underwhelming feat choices, and lack of decent focus spells outside of the mini haste one.
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Sustaining Steel is too restricting.
I can understand you thinking things are competitive if you're limiting yourself to 1d8 weapons but IMO things change once you start looking at other weapons with higher damage dice. And while you don't like message, it allows what you find missing: the movement. In addition, you can attack, get temp hp AND do another action: you can Recall, Demoralize, cast a Shield, ect. IMO, using message with spellstrike give much more flexibility than anything Slide does as there are MANY rounds I found no need to move so the extra move went to waste.
Overall, my experience so far with the Magus has been surprisingly positive.
For myself, Sustaining Steel was the only one I'd call positive. Slide and Shooting just left me wondering 'why am I not doing these separately'.
Sustaining Steel is too restricting.I can understand you thinking things are competitive if you're limiting yourself to 1d8 weapons but IMO things change once you start looking at other weapons with higher damage dice. And while you don't like message, it allows what you find missing: the movement. In addition, you can attack, get temp hp AND do another action: you can Recall, Demoralize, cast a Shield, ect. IMO, using message with spellstrike give much more flexibility than anything Slide does as there are MANY rounds I found no need to move so the extra move went to waste.
Overall, my experience so far with the Magus has been surprisingly positive.For myself, Sustaining Steel was the only one I'd call positive. Slide and Shooting just left me wondering 'why am I not doing these separately'.
I mean slide lets you do 4 actions for the cost of 3 actions, so the benefit is very apparent. A normal gish character (martial/caster MCD) can't do that, which is a huge plus for the Sliding Magus.
Sustaining Steel is only decent if you have Haste or 1 action cantrips. Message cheese aside, if we get new 1 action cantrips, then Sustaining Steel is a better option. But message isn't that great of an option as you are trading an action for a handful of temp HP. Now a 1 action damaging cantrip would be really nice, because then you're getting temp HP and extra damage for 1 action.
I mean slide lets you do 4 actions for the cost of 3 actions, so the benefit is very apparent.
No, it only gives you the POSSIBILITY for 4 actions, 1 of which is locked. If you don't have to move, it's a completely wasted action. For myself, I found that more rounds than not it went to waste.
A normal gish character (martial/caster MCD) can't do that, which is a huge plus for the Sliding Magus.
They can, but the spells they can do it with is limited: for instance I can magic missile, move and Strike.
Sustaining Steel is only decent if you have Haste or 1 action cantrips.
Only if you force yourself into using a damaging spell with Spellstrike: with message you do better damage or can move and strike. Or strike and a skill.
Message cheese aside, if we get new 1 action cantrips, then Sustaining Steel is a better option.
Don't disagree.
But message isn't that great of an option as you are trading an action for a handful of temp HP.
It's your max spell slots level per round which adds up quite a bit. It's something you aren't getting with a 2 action cantrip let alone a single action one. [even shield used to block is only 1/10 min]
Now a 1 action damaging cantrip would be really nice, because then you're getting temp HP and extra damage for 1 action.
Oh I 100%, but I think you're underestimation how much those temp hp add to up over time.
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Getting temporary hp is an activity that many players would consider worth spending an action on. Maybe it is not quite as valuable as a shield raise action, but it can be pretty close, and it is almost always valuable. There can be many times where movement is not a necessary or even useful action.
Now I still think slide is very interesting and might make for a fun build, but there is an issue built into the magus as far as weapon selection goes, and that is there is very little feat support for doing anything other than choosing the best weapon for making single attack actions a turn. This makes very few weapons have much value to magi, and it makes 2 handed weapons significantly more powerful that one handed weapons.
A magus really benefits from reach and the largest damage dice possible because they will be keeping up with the highest level striking runes and they almost never make multiple attacks in a round, so some of the more traditional weapon traits that work in other martial class builds are often made useless.
The flick mace is a pretty decent one-handed weapon given these factors, but otherwise there are not many of them that do much for you.
No, it only gives you the POSSIBILITY for 4 actions, 1 of which is locked. If you don't have to move, it's a completely wasted action. For myself, I found that more rounds than not it went to waste.
Perhaps you're right as I only played my Magus once. However so far, movement is crucial. From what I've played in Pathfinder in general, characters and enemies rarely stand still, especially melee combatants. Plus ensuring you flank your enemy for the flat-footed benefit is crucial for this iteration of the Magus to crit fish. Even without Striking Spell's crit ability, flanking is always great anyway.
They can, but the spells they can do it with is limited: for instance I can magic missile, move and Strike.
Of course, but I'm talking about 2 action cantrips/spells, which are far more common. In that regard, the Magus in general is superior to regular caster/marial MCD as Magus get something extra when using 3 actions to cast and strike.
However so far, movement is crucial. From what I've played in Pathfinder in general, characters and enemies rarely stand still, especially melee combatants.
Movement is very dependent on Dm, adventure and type of creature.
Plus ensuring you flank your enemy for the flat-footed benefit is crucial for this iteration of the Magus to crit fish. Even without Striking Spell's crit ability, flanking is always great anyway.
For me, most times intelligent creatures move only when it benefits them: they don't randomly for no reason. Generally once everyone has a good position, unless something changes it's better to stay there from my experience. Once you get a good flank are YOU going to move out of it without reason?
Secondly, I hope that they just drop the crit fishing mechanic and make spellstriking better instead.
Of course, but I'm talking about 2 action cantrips/spells, which are far more common.
But IMO, 2 action cantrips just do not compete with a good 1d12 weapon strike. If you're looking to trigger vulnerabilities, you're generally better just casting it. Higher level spells can do a lot more than damage so it's generally not a big deal if you do not strike + spell.
In that regard, the Magus in general is superior to regular caster/marial MCD as Magus get something extra when using 3 actions to cast and strike.
We'll just have to agree to disagree here. I'll pick a either a wizard/fighter or a fighter wizard over a sliding magus pretty much every time. Heck, I'd take Eldritch Archer + just about anything over the sliding magus. The only magus that appealed to me at all was Sustaining Steel.
Now I still think slide is very interesting and might make for a fun build, but there is an issue built into the magus as far as weapon selection goes, and that is there is very little feat support for doing anything other than choosing the best weapon for making single attack actions a turn.
Hmmm... Especially if Hasted (but not just, including 2nd turns after missing Spellstrike), you may enjoy chance for 2nd weapon strike (or more on 2nd turn). If you miss 1st weapon strike, an Agile weapon gives better chances to trigger Spellstrike held spell... As well as just doing "weapon full attack" well, when it's situationally optimal with or without spellcasting. A benefit of any 1H weapon with free hand is that free hand can make Agile Unarmed/Gauntlet strikes. Obviously Bastard Sword kind of gives best of both worlds (minus Reach and Versatile S/P) but needs Fighter Feats for Dual Handed Assault.
In terms of Feat support there is the Tome Feat (off hand), Arcane Fist, Bespell (+1d6 benefits more attacks not big attacks), Spirit Sheathe (free action draw 2nd 1 Bulk weapon), Spell Parry (free hand), Spell Swipe (uses Sweep weapon trait), and I think I missed some more 1H/free hand Feats. 1H weapons have by far the most Feat support, countering the "normal" inclination for single big hit weapons.
However so far, movement is crucial. From what I've played in Pathfinder in general, characters and enemies rarely stand still, especially melee combatants.Movement is very dependent on Dm, adventure and type of creature.
Plus ensuring you flank your enemy for the flat-footed benefit is crucial for this iteration of the Magus to crit fish. Even without Striking Spell's crit ability, flanking is always great anyway.For me, most times intelligent creatures move only when it benefits them: they don't randomly for no reason. Generally once everyone has a good position, unless something changes it's better to stay there from my experience. Once you get a good flank are YOU going to move out of it without reason?
Secondly, I hope that they just drop the crit fishing mechanic and make spellstriking better instead.
Of course, but I'm talking about 2 action cantrips/spells, which are far more common.But IMO, 2 action cantrips just do not compete with a good 1d12 weapon strike. If you're looking to trigger vulnerabilities, you're generally better just casting it. Higher level spells can do a lot more than damage so it's generally not a big deal if you do not strike + spell.
In that regard, the Magus in general is superior to regular caster/marial MCD as Magus get something extra when using 3 actions to cast and strike.We'll just have to agree to disagree here. I'll pick a either a wizard/fighter or a fighter wizard over a sliding magus pretty much every time. Heck, I'd take Eldritch Archer + just about anything over the sliding magus. The only magus that appealed to me at all was Sustaining Steel.
We will have to agree to disagree. The fact that my level 3 Magus has 3 spell slots, 5 cantrips, medium armor proficiency, and martial weapon proficiency makes me way happier than when I tried building him as a fighter/wizard or wizard/fighter. Wizard/fighter is squishier and lacks armor and has poorer weapon proficiency. Fighter/wizard only gets 2 cantrips and doesn't get a single spell slot until 4th level. Both have to devote class feats for these additional features, which I can do with a Magus to get better fighting (fighter MCD) or more spells (wizard/witch MCD). Unless I'm starting a campaign at a high level, I don't see a real reason to pick fighter/wizard over a Magus. You gain spells just so slowly with only 3rd level spells until 12th level!
Also will have to agree to disagree on movement. One of the things I like about 2e is that the battlefield is constantly changing. Coming from D&D 5e, people run up to the enemy and whack them, and then don't move unless the enemy moves. In 2e, with the removal of Opportunity Attacks from most characters/monsters, movement is encouraged, not discouraged. Monsters hit really hard too. Paizo did an excellent job of encouraging dynamic combat that doesn't revolve around moving to point A and standing at point A attacking the whole encounter.
We will have to agree to disagree. The fact that my level 3 Magus has 3 spell slots, 5 cantrips, medium armor proficiency, and martial weapon proficiency makes me way happier than when I tried building him as a fighter/wizard or wizard/fighter. Wizard/fighter is squishier and...However so far, movement is crucial. From what I've played in Pathfinder in general, characters and enemies rarely stand still, especially melee combatants.Movement is very dependent on Dm, adventure and type of creature.
Plus ensuring you flank your enemy for the flat-footed benefit is crucial for this iteration of the Magus to crit fish. Even without Striking Spell's crit ability, flanking is always great anyway.For me, most times intelligent creatures move only when it benefits them: they don't randomly for no reason. Generally once everyone has a good position, unless something changes it's better to stay there from my experience. Once you get a good flank are YOU going to move out of it without reason?
Secondly, I hope that they just drop the crit fishing mechanic and make spellstriking better instead.
Of course, but I'm talking about 2 action cantrips/spells, which are far more common.But IMO, 2 action cantrips just do not compete with a good 1d12 weapon strike. If you're looking to trigger vulnerabilities, you're generally better just casting it. Higher level spells can do a lot more than damage so it's generally not a big deal if you do not strike + spell.
In that regard, the Magus in general is superior to regular caster/marial MCD as Magus get something extra when using 3 actions to cast and strike.We'll just have to agree to disagree here. I'll pick a either a wizard/fighter or a fighter wizard over a sliding magus pretty much every time. Heck, I'd take Eldritch Archer + just about anything over the sliding magus. The only magus that appealed to me at all was Sustaining Steel.
I tend to agree with you. To me, Magus seems superior to MCD, especially due to the fact that it can be combined with MCD. Really hope your experiences with Striking Spell turn out better than mine! Even if it had no Striking Spell, I could favor it, but may be wrong.
Out of curiosity, I just checked reddit and saw you had a very popular HB Magus archetype that used a two action one roll activity as the basis for spellstrike . Do you find current Magus to play better than it?
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Hoping they address spell strike better release
I also kept wondering how the class would do in lower levels (1, 2) during which these tools were not readly availableI'm playing a 3rd level Magus (was 2nd level last session). Without being a Slide Magus, I'm not sure if I would have ever gotten Striking Spell off. Enemies move around so much in 2e. If you're facing enemies with reach, it gets even tricker. Slide let me constantly get in position, especially flanking position, to get off Striking Spell.With Sustaining Steel, my move rounds are Striking Spell + Message to get my temp hp and then smash something with my maul. In general 2 straight maul hits are better than Striking Spell with a damage cantrip so most times it's message or a spell slot spell for me.
Shooting Star of course doesn't have to move as much but really doesn't have much reason to use Striking Spell: why do that when you can strike then cast an electric arc 2 creatures?
ok ok ok but the important thing. Is your message a taunt sent to your opponent?
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ok ok ok but the important thing. Is your message a taunt sent to your opponent?I also kept wondering how the class would do in lower levels (1, 2) during which these tools were not readly availableI'm playing a 3rd level Magus (was 2nd level last session). Without being a Slide Magus, I'm not sure if I would have ever gotten Striking Spell off. Enemies move around so much in 2e. If you're facing enemies with reach, it gets even tricker. Slide let me constantly get in position, especially flanking position, to get off Striking Spell.With Sustaining Steel, my move rounds are Striking Spell + Message to get my temp hp and then smash something with my maul. In general 2 straight maul hits are better than Striking Spell with a damage cantrip so most times it's message or a spell slot spell for me.
Shooting Star of course doesn't have to move as much but really doesn't have much reason to use Striking Spell: why do that when you can strike then cast an electric arc 2 creatures?
No, it's pieces of your tragic backstory.
This makes me think of the message spell strike mechanic as a final fantasy thing that lets you survive longer as you reveal your whole tragic backstory in pieces to every enemy your fight.
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This makes me think of the message spell strike mechanic as a final fantasy thing that lets you survive longer as you reveal your whole tragic backstory in pieces to every enemy your fight.
Was thinking more of Naruto or Demon Slayer but yeah.
Tbh I find using message very hard to justify in roleplay. For ONE character it's fine but I doubt every magus does it.
I know grey stone likes it, but even at high levels it is barely the equivalent protection as raising a shield, and sustaining steel is the only synthesis where spending an action just to get the effect is remotely worth it, so there is not really a threat of millions of Magi running around casting message just to trigger their synthesis.
With my sustaining steel Magi, On the first round, I typically cast a cantrip and then did runic impression on my first round. Then I would kick off energize strikes, move and then attack. I would always be at the front of the party and with a bard, a cleric and a liberator champion, it made sense to stick together, rather than running up on the enemy.
As far as Haste goes, unless I was able to cast it in advance, (like when we came to a door and heard trouble on the other side), haste was too much of a hassle to even mess with, as I only had it on scroll (level 13 play experience) and even if you had your scroll out and your two handed weapon in one hand at the start of combat, you were casting the spell then regripping your weapon the first round, then having to cast your attack spell, energize strikes and then still move on the second round, meaning you didn't really get started until the 3rd round of combat. Haste was nice when I cast it in advance, but I always had a debilitating spell on scroll striked to my weapon instead of haste. Maybe it would have been better to put haste there, but you still run into the reality that casting haste basically kills off a whole round without getting energizing strikes going. By round 2 or 3 having to move a lot is not a big issue and thus haste is rarely for more than an extra strike at a -5 or for true striking, but I really only did that when I started a round with a spell still active, so about 10-25% of the time.
Really the problem with haste is that it doesn't trigger energizing strike so you have to spend two rounds of casting before getting your weapon going. I guess that is what the focus power is for, but I like runic impressions a lot and without a way to get 2 focus points back, I'm not sure I would prioritize haste over the ability to put a greater elemental rune on my weapon. Greater elemental runes are hard to justify buying, but their crit effects stack incredibly well with the magus accuracy focus and throwing around 2d10 persistent damage, or a DC 34 slow or permanent deafness effect at level 13 is really cool.
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even at high levels it is barely the equivalent protection as raising a shield
It's an action you can use every round that doesn't require a free hand or extra equipment. Given that a two handed weapon user isn't likely to have a way to use a shield and Shield has a 10 min cooldown, it's protection that's hard to come by for that style of fighting.
sustaining steel is the only synthesis where spending an action just to get the effect is remotely worth it
Well, Shooting Star doesn't really DO anything so of course that gets ignored. As to sliding, it's tied into the assumption of you using all your actions on Striking Spell/cast/strike. If we get more 1 action cantrips for the class it too looks less tempting. [if you can do your thing and move without the synthesis it feels less of a requirement]
ok ok ok but the important thing. Is your message a taunt sent to your opponent?
'Your momma's so fat' jokes. Cryptic voice offering Faustian pacts. Goblin 'songs'. Scathing commentary on their fashion sense. Good old fashion evil villain laughter. 'hey look over there' or 'OMG what is THAT'. "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
I tend to agree with you. To me, Magus seems superior to MCD, especially due to the fact that it can be combined with MCD. Really hope your experiences with Striking Spell turn out better than mine! Even if it had no Striking Spell, I could favor it, but may be wrong.
Out of curiosity, I just checked reddit and saw you had a very popular HB Magus archetype that used a two action one roll activity as the basis for spellstrike . Do you find current Magus to play better than it?
Yeah, I think the base Magus is decent as it does the job of letting you play a good gish character right away. No weird lack of proficiencies (no armor for wizard/fighter) or super delayed casting (fighter/wizard).
In regards to my Magus Wizard Archetype, I haven't had the chance to personally playtest it as I was finishing up a long term 5e campaign when I made the homebrew. My group is now going through Ruins of Azlant (converted to 2e) but we are avoiding homebrew at the moment.
I personally prefer my Spell Strike version, which was inspired by a NPC magus from AoA. However, its a 6th level feat as opposed to Striking Spell being a 1st level class feature. In terms of my Wizard Magus vs Paizo's Magus, my homebrew is more caster than martial as it has War Priest martial progression (only expert in weapons). I like how martial Paizo's Magus is personally. I would prefer a Spell Strike that either was one roll and applies some bonus for saving throw spells. The current crit mechanic is fun when you crit, but its not consistent, and I can see why people would get frustrated with it.
Oh hey Fanatic, was wondering when I'd see you there
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I’m almost certain there will be another one action equivalent spells so message will become less emphasized.
Could be wrong, but this may be in anticipation of that.
...Haste was nice when I cast it in advance, but I always had a debilitating spell on scroll striked to my weapon instead of haste. Maybe it would have been better to put haste there, but you still run into the reality that casting haste basically kills off a whole round without getting energizing strikes going... I guess that is what the focus power is for, but I like runic impressions a lot and without a way to get 2 focus points back, I'm not sure I would prioritize haste over the ability to put a greater elemental rune on my weapon.
This reminds me of how I feel Striker's Scroll "Can only cast with Spellstrike" restriction seems too harsh. Given the Feat has global limit of one weapon/scroll at a time, and you aren't likely to trigger Energize Strikes with spells that aren't appropriate for Spellstrike, I feel like it's not too much too allow the scroll to be cast "normally" off the weapon (not using Spellstrike), which is most impactful for 2H weapon users action economy on scrolls.
One thing that incentivizes actually casting spell yourself (slot, focus, or scroll), as opposed to using Potions of Quickness (1-action if already held), is School Shroud. In the case of Haste (Transumation) it adds +30' speed for ~1.5 rounds, which could save you a further action moving (or set up Flanking etc). Also nice effect for when you really just want increased speed for a round or 2 more than Haste as such.
I love the school theme of Spell Shroud tying into the Magus' origin as Wizard style caster (only caster that emphasizes magic schools ala School Specialists). If anything, I'd like to see that expanded upon elsewhere in the class itself or Feat options.
school shroud is an interesting feat. I wonder if there isn't a similar feat being considered for the wizard in the secrets of magic book. People have been complaining for a long time that wizards don't feel tied enough to their schools.
I think it is not seeing a lot of playtesting because people are so focused on hasted assault though. It is possible that part of the reason people feel the Magus is so action deprived is not just that they want to be using striking spell every round, but that the class has so many strong buff options and that players feel like they could spend three rounds worth of actions before getting into the meat of their combat damage routine.
In that regard I think school shroud is more useful to the magus than it might seem. Getting fire shield every time you cast runic impression is pretty cool for a summoning steel magus as well.
Although looking at it again, School shroud needs to be more clear about what level the spell is cast at. For the sake of getting see invisibility, and especially for the spell deprived magus, I hope that it scales to the magus' highest spell level.
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school shroud is an interesting feat. I wonder if there isn't a similar feat being considered for the wizard in the secrets of magic book. People have been complaining for a long time that wizards don't feel tied enough to their schools.
Yeah, that's what's bothering me about that feat. Reskin that so it triggers off "casting a spell from your school, here's the bonus" and it would feel very Wizard-y.
Oh hey Fanatic, was wondering when I'd see you there
Hey Kalaam, nice to see a friendly face here from reddit. I appreciate your feedback back when I was homebrewing my Magus archetypes.
On topic, I think School Shroud is a really cool feat. In general, the Magus feats are on the underwhelming side, and I would love to see more feats like Spell Shroud that are flavorful and powerful.
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Could be nice if school shroud could be expanded upon. Maybe a feat that let you pick between two spells of each school