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The stairs on the first map (A. Entrance) are misplaced in the map file. According to the scenario they should be to the far left in the upper corner.
The map files "2-03 Map 2" for "B Research Rooms" and "2-03 Map 3" for "C Depths" appear to be too large to import to Roll20. They exceed the 10MB max. The other two files imported just fine.
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Also, if the intent was to provide these maps to make importing them into VTTs such as Roll20 easier, could you (Paizo) please include any added features, i.e. furniture, bone heaps, etc., like the pawns from the Traps & Treasures Collection directly in the map file, not as seperate icons (maybe excluding the rare case where these would be intended to be moved)?!
What we really need is essentially the map as displayed in the adventure, just without annotations, as a single picture file. Otherwise it's still a major cut, copy, paste nuisance.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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P. 17 there seems to be a skill missing For obstacle 4 - Urexhl's Fiery Wrath. Is this because the intent was to remove the skill and force only Thievery, or should there be a missing skill that was not caught during the finishing process?
In my draft, for Urxehl's Fiery Wrath I had:
Associated skills: Thievery (to deftly swat the sparks aside), Survival (to protect yourself from the sparks and smoke).I do not know if the devs intended to change this. The fact that its missing makes me believe they wanted to substitute Survival for something else.
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The stairs on the first map (A. Entrance) are misplaced in the map file. According to the scenario they should be to the far left in the upper corner.
The map files "2-03 Map 2" for "B Research Rooms" and "2-03 Map 3" for "C Depths" appear to be too large to import to Roll20. They exceed the 10MB max. The other two files imported just fine.
This question might sound daft - is there an extra map file?
I downloaded yesterday without a map file. I noticed there was an update (today) for the pdf. Also if I personalize it it is 45 MB (compared to 4 MB I had earlier) - but whatever I try - I get the original pdf back. That is on Chrome. Possibly it has some old 'memory' ? I tried an incognito window as that often solves web problems - but same result.
I tried Edge browser but can't log in with that one at all to my account.
I have done the map already - but that was 43 individual files to get done. On the bonus side - my crates and barrels are moveable objects - not that I assume someone will want to use them / build a stack of them.
But it would matter for my write-up / rating if this is the most VTT unfriendly scenario so far or if I just jumped the gun.
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A more urgent issue:
Page 28 - scaling - it says
ZOMBIE BRUTE CREATURE 2
It also says
19–22 Challenge Points: Add one zombie brute to the
encounter, as the body animates as well.
23–27 Challenge Points: Add one zombie brute to the
encounter and add 15 Hit Points to both enemies.
Comparing the wording and having done a token table for tier 1-2 I'm convinced correct is
ZOMBIE BRUTE (0) CREATURE 2
The difference
16 AP 1 Crawling hand, zero zombie brutes
19-22 1 crawling hand, 1 zombie brute
vs
16 AP 1 Crawling hand, one zombie brutes
19-22 1 crawling hand, 2 zombie brutes
Maybe this is already corrected?
Edit:
Page 29 could have the same issue if I compare tier 1-2 with 3-4 - in this case I'm less sure what is correct and what is wrong. Without page 28 I wouldn't even question this one.
LESSER SKELETAL CYCLOPS CREATURE 1
Should this be
LESSER SKELETAL CYCLOPS (0) CREATURE 1
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@Lau - Thanks - I did some vigorous shaking and it did work.
The map files "2-03 Map 2" for "B Research Rooms" and "2-03 Map 3" for "C Depths" appear to be too large to import to Roll20. They exceed the 10MB max. The other two files imported just fine.
There is a very simple fix
The map sizes are
Map 1 and 4: 18x12 squares
Map 2 and 3: 18x24 squares
Typical resolutions:
Flipmap from a scenario pdf (earlier scenarios) ca 44 pixel/square
Flipmap from a pdf (Thornkeep) ca 150 pixel/square
Maps from this map folder ca 300 pixel/square
Roll20 recommended resolution for publishers - 140 pixel/square
I did some testing previously in regard to resolution (speed / optical difference). I noticed that it depends on the scale (zoom in/out). Below 70% resolution the Flipmap from a pack (Thornkeep) or a pdf were undistinguishable.
Same results for my map of scenario 15 compared to the official roll20 one.
You did notice a more detailed texture above 70%.It is more crisp - but you need to have it side by side to notice. It doesn't matter for normal play.
These maps here are >2 times the recommended resolution of roll20. I used a calculator and paint and resized to the roll20 recommendation:
Map 1 and 4: 1680x2520 pixel
Map 2 and 3: 3360x2520 pixel
(do not keep the ratio - it is off by a few pixel and roll20 otherwise will force it to this resolution (or a multiple of it) anyhow.
This reduced the size to 1.1 - 2.1 MB for the files
I doubt you will notice any difference between maps - unless you have a very large screen with a very large resolution.
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Also, if the intent was to provide these maps to make importing them into VTTs such as Roll20 easier, could you (Paizo) please include any added features, i.e. furniture, bone heaps, etc., like the pawns from the Traps & Treasures Collection directly in the map file, not as seperate icons (maybe excluding the rare case where these would be intended to be moved)?!
What we really need is essentially the map as displayed in the adventure, just without annotations, as a single picture file. Otherwise it's still a major cut, copy, paste nuisance.
These are early days - and I can only say how huge a difference it is to have the map ready available. I downloaded early and it took me 2 hours to generate 43 files and arrange 69 instances of these.
But it can't be underestimated how important all the extra bits are.
To add to this - cut&paste doesn't work as you lose the transparency of the extra icons. Everything will get a black border - like the throne on the map in the pdf. I'm told some professional Adobe Suite fixes that - but have no access.
There are tools out there including batch tools that extract the images as well as the mask - and then assemble them back together to a single file with transparency. But you need to know what you do - and at least the one I use filters out small images by default to keep the number of images small. So you need to change some .bat files to circumvent that and I'm therefore not advertise these tools here. Maybe someone has a simpler solution - but I'm not aware of one despite spending some extensive research to come up with my own solution.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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A more urgent issue:
Page 28 - scaling - it says
ZOMBIE BRUTE CREATURE 2
It also says
19–22 Challenge Points: Add one zombie brute to the
encounter, as the body animates as well.
23–27 Challenge Points: Add one zombie brute to the
encounter and add 15 Hit Points to both enemies.Comparing the wording and having done a token table for tier 1-2 I'm convinced correct is
ZOMBIE BRUTE (0) CREATURE 2
The difference
16 AP 1 Crawling hand, zero zombie brutes
19-22 1 crawling hand, 1 zombie brute
vs
16 AP 1 Crawling hand, one zombie brutes
19-22 1 crawling hand, 2 zombie brutes
Maybe this is already corrected?
Edit:
Page 29 could have the same issue if I compare tier 1-2 with 3-4 - in this case I'm less sure what is correct and what is wrong. Without page 28 I wouldn't even question this one.LESSER SKELETAL CYCLOPS CREATURE 1
Should this be
LESSER SKELETAL CYCLOPS (0) CREATURE 1
Let me get back to you once I'm done with work. Then I can compare my draft to the PDF.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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So there were a few tweaks between my final draft and what made it into the scenario. Ignoring the HP tweaks.
My intention was:
16< Crawling hand
10-22 Crawling hand + 1 zombie brute
23-27 crawling hand + 1 zombie brute (zombie is buffed)
28-32 crawling hand + 1 zombie brute (both buffed)
33-42 crawling hand + 1 zombie brute (both buffed more)
As I read it in the scenario, the number of enemies should remain the same. One hand. One zombie. Just that both get stronger.
With page 29, the intention is to start with 2 skeletal cyclopes, nothing more or less. Just start adding in lesser skellies for CP 20, 24, 28, 32 and 36.
So at CP 20 you have 2 skeletal cyclopes and one lesser skeletal cyclops.
At 24 CP you have 2 skeletal cyclopes and two lesser skeletal cyclops.
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So there were a few tweaks between my final draft and what made it into the scenario. Ignoring the HP tweaks.
My intention was:
16< Crawling hand
10-22 Crawling hand + 1 zombie brute
23-27 crawling hand + 1 zombie brute (zombie is buffed)
28-32 crawling hand + 1 zombie brute (both buffed)
33-42 crawling hand + 1 zombie brute (both buffed more)As I read it in the scenario, the number of enemies should remain the same. One hand. One zombie. Just that both get stronger.
With page 29, the intention is to start with 2 skeletal cyclopes, nothing more or less. Just start adding in lesser skellies for CP 20, 24, 28, 32 and 36.
So at CP 20 you have 2 skeletal cyclopes and one lesser skeletal cyclops.
At 24 CP you have 2 skeletal cyclopes and two lesser skeletal cyclops.
Thanks for the answer - that is what I expected. It is great if an author looks out on these boards here when a scenario comes out and replies quickly - was in time for my game.
I just did a run with 21 CP and took down all but 1 Char and 1 Companion in this fight (hot dice). I used crawling hand +1 zombie. But strictly speaking the default if no bracket is between Monster Name and Creature is (1) and not (0).
Tier 1-2: EXPLODING SKELETON GUARD (0) CREATURE –1 - correct
Tier 3-4: ZOMBIE BRUTE CREATURE 2 - wrong as it would add an extra zombie brute to all your numbers.
PS: I (and my players) truly enjoyed it. More when I'm more awake again.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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Something I've noticed:
The mutated trollhound in the high tier has the same to hit and damage as the low tier.
I had submitted this as: jaws +14, Damage 2d12+3 piercing plus Knockdown. I do not know if it was intended to adjust this and was accidentally substituted with the low tier.
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I did run it a second time yesterday. A few observations - both runs higher tier, 21 CP
Fight 1: There is only a ledge for Cavefisher 1 - or should I say a lower area. Didn't realize it first time. Both groups struggled a lot to get going with this one.
Memorable moment - we had 4 darkvision, only 1 light source - so healer with lightsource goes to help character caught by cavefisher 2 while the swashbuckler gets reeeled into darkness and he finds dangling from the filament without able to see (yes - I do use dynamic lighting)
Fight 2: This is the one I was afraid about - first time I checked that the group had a source of fire. This went smooth both times. It helped two wizards tried to use fire in the first fight (one missed - but that left the second one) and the alchemist fire that group 2 detected was crucial in the second case. A missed (splash only) alchemist fire is the equivalent of 31 !! HP Will see how that works if a group isn't having fire. The swashbuckler kept using his rapier - he had a lid torch by that time.
Fight 3: The crawling hand took down 4/5 - leaving only a heavily mauled monk and the animal companion standing. I admit I use the hand quarry as background for my tactic - focusing on one target until that one is down - moving over to another one.
Fight 4: I didn't do the optional fight yet. I ran 5 hours (first time cold, slow start) and 4 1/2 hours without that fight.
Fight 5/Puzzle: Both groups managed to solve the puzzle. I build up some props for it. I generated tokens 1x10 (700x70 pixel) with the material (Flint, Slate, Crystal, etc.) as background and the snapshot of the handout text overlayed. Using dynamic lighting I have a split screen with all 10 'fingers' invisible behind the barrier which I created from the token of the brambles. One is slotted in while the other 4 are in order as they found them - with places to move them in (control all - so players can really move them / order them on the VTT).
The second group got 4 out of 5 translations right. They 'solved' the puzzle but ended up with one, two, 2xfour, five. They concluded that they had one finger translated wrong - and I allowed a single reroll in this case which of the 'number fours' was correct and which was the three.
One more bit - I renamed them Handout 1-5 - you can have 2 handouts with the same name on roll20. Text what is right/wrong is in the GM notes and I have a pattern (invisible to players) that the top one is the correct one, the bottom one is the wrong one.
Both group sealed in the crystal.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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I did run it a second time yesterday. A few observations - both runs higher tier, 21 CP
Fight 1: There is only a ledge for Cavefisher 1 - or should I say a lower area. Didn't realize it first time. Both groups struggled a lot to get going with this one.
Memorable moment - we had 4 darkvision, only 1 light source - so healer with lightsource goes to help character caught by cavefisher 2 while the swashbuckler gets reeeled into darkness and he finds dangling from the filament without able to see (yes - I do use dynamic lighting)
I had a custom map submitted with 2 ledges with a big hight difference, so that the cave fishers could literally haul someone up. This got changed in development so that fliptiles could be used for all of the maps.
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Venture-Agent, California—Livermore
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Also, if the intent was to provide these maps to make importing them into VTTs such as Roll20 easier, could you (Paizo) please include any added features, i.e. furniture, bone heaps, etc., like the pawns from the Traps & Treasures Collection directly in the map file, not as seperate icons (maybe excluding the rare case where these would be intended to be moved)?!
What we really need is essentially the map as displayed in the adventure, just without annotations, as a single picture file. Otherwise it's still a major cut, copy, paste nuisance.
Did you come up with a way to extract the images with a blank background?
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Since these maps are outside the norm and a lot of work, Tonya allowed the maps to be shared online. They are up on pfsprep ready to use, saving you a lot of time.
Which maps? Your custom map or the the maps in the PDF?
Also, has there been an update to the scenario to fix the problems with the mobs that Thod found? Because as GMs, we are not allowed to change the scenario.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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Since these maps are outside the norm and a lot of work, Tonya allowed the maps to be shared online. They are up on pfsprep ready to use, saving you a lot of time.Which maps? Your custom map or the the maps in the PDF?
Also, has there been an update to the scenario to fix the problems with the mobs that Thod found? Because as GMs, we are not allowed to change the scenario.
I'm confused. The scenario has no custom maps? Just map tiles with pawns added?
Also no Dev has come in the thread to make corrections, so I can only state what I intended to give GMs some guidance on things (like the missing skill).
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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People in the reviews keep getting hung up on that the solution in the puzzle would be visible in common. I think that's the wrong perspective.
Imagine the original text was in French, not Cyclops. And while using your dictionary to translate this French text, you notice some words that look misspelled in the French. And if you focus out your eyes a bit you also notice some other French number-words that are hidden in the text.
The players get a Cyclops phrase-book, which presumably also includes Cyclopean number words. The clues are not in Common, they're in the original text.
If the players get stuck, you could say "you've used the lexicon to read the Cyclops text, but it seems as if there are some spelling errors in there, as you can see in the handout".
Note also that you don't have to solve the puzzle to progress the adventure; get it wrong often enough and you can fight your way through.
And as a halfway solution, because the barrier expels the fingers every time you get it wrong, you get some feedback. This isn't like the puzzle in Six Seconds to Midnight where you would only get a yes/no on the complete solution, here you get rejects as soon as you add a mistake to a partial solution. (Though, you only get three chances so there is no 100% sure algorithm to find the solution without triggering the fight.)
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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If players are looking at the puzzle, but are a bit stumped, giving them an intelligence or society check to point out the misspelled words can help a lot.
Also part of the puzzle can be deducted based on one finger already being inserted in the correct position.
Yesterday for example, they did not pick up on the misspelled words being numbers, but inserted the first three fingers correctly, and the last two wrong. They were then easily able to put everything back in correctly.
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I was the GM for Tivadar's group. After they got the four transalation, one of the players was hypothesising about the correct type of puzzle but was a bit since they had repeats of numbers. (I think they had 3 wrong/2 correct at that point).
This included an incorrect one for basalt, which caused them some problems, that on reflection might have been my fault.
Is the intent that there's five holes in the wall in a line, numbered 1-5 effectively and the fingers must be placed in the correct index. Or are they five holes, and which hole is used doesn't matter as long as the order of insertion into any hole is correct? Or is it correct index and correct temporal order?
The party decided to put basalt back in the whole it came from (correct given that its supposed to be '1', but they thought it was '5' and decided that cyclops must be a right-to-left language. They then placed their correctly translated '2' into the second hole from the end on the opposite extreme from basalt. So it was the second finger inserted, but the wrong hole, if they actual hole mattered. I was assuming it did, so that triggered their expulsion of the fingers/trap the first time.
They then spent some more time re-translating the (correct) second finger, got in wrong this time. Tried again, forget the exact order, but pretty quick expulsion again. They then tried re-translating basalt, got the correct one there, and were able to continue puzzling through it w/o triggering the trap for the third time.
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People in the reviews keep getting hung up on that the solution in the puzzle would be visible in common. I think that's the wrong perspective.
Imagine the original text was in French, not Cyclops. And while using your dictionary to translate this French text, you notice some words that look misspelled in the French. And if you focus out your eyes a bit you also notice some other French number-words that are hidden in the text.
The players get a Cyclops phrase-book, which presumably also includes Cyclopean number words. The clues are not in Common, they're in the original text.
If the players get stuck, you could say "you've used the lexicon to read the Cyclops text, but it seems as if there are some spelling errors in there, as you can see in the handout".
Note also that you don't have to solve the puzzle to progress the adventure; get it wrong often enough and you can fight your way through.
And as a halfway solution, because the barrier expels the fingers every time you get it wrong, you get some feedback. This isn't like the puzzle in Six Seconds to Midnight where you would only get a yes/no on the complete solution, here you get rejects as soon as you add a mistake to a partial solution. (Though, you only get three chances so there is no 100% sure algorithm to find the solution without triggering the fight.)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The holes are from left to right
1-2-3-4-5Basalt, who correctly translates to 'one' is already inserted into
twoone.
So the entry from left to right matters.
I think for once it's a puzzle in a scenario that's actually pretty straightforward. There is one finger stuck in the lattice and four more holes where more fingers could go in:
[basalt, already placed, contains "on his trone"]
[] <= second spot, the flint finger with "of heartwood blessed" goes here.
[] <= third spot, slate finger with "enemy hath reeled" goes here.
[] <= fourth spot, the crystal finger with "Of our devotion" should go in here.
[] <= fifth spot, obsidian finger with "If ive prayed" goes here.
If players are really starting to wonder if Cyclops goes from right to left, I think considering that they've already been translating it, it's fair to clue to them in that everything they've read so far has been left to right.
Note also that in the handouts, the font has weird kerning that draws attention to the numbered words. So using the handouts with their weird Cyclopean font is preferable over just the bare text in Arial.
Venture-Agent, Colorado—Colorado Springs
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I ran this online yesterday. The players were really struggling with the puzzle until one of them stumbled on the numbers in the text. Unfortunately, they had three of the five translations wrong at that point. One of the ones they had wrong was the first one, which confused them because it was already in place. I was really amused when one of the overseas players said "Oh, I forgot you read from left to right!" as they discussed whether the item in place was in slot one or five.
I found the Encounter Appendices annoying in that they don't reference the Area designations in the main text, just the names. Also, both the Tier 1-2 and 3-4 Appendices are missing A2 which just adds to the confusion. The description of the item found in area B3 assumes the item in area B2 was already found, but when the players approach Areas B2 and B3, they are just as likely to go to Area B3 first. I am also used to having things numbers from left to right, so the fact that Area B3 is on the left side of Area B2 on page 7 didn't help.
The final encounter was definitely not what they expected, but they all said they had fun.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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You mean Basalt is already in one, right? not two?The holes are from left to right
1-2-3-4-5Basalt, who correctly translates to 'one' is already inserted into two.
So the entry from left to right matters.
Yeah, in one.
I should not be allowed near numbers without coffee.|
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Also wanted to comment on/check one aspect of the chase bit, as my table seemed to feel it was unfair, but they did escape on the absolute last roll before the third collapse. So thematically I think it might have been great, but maybe just less good story telling on my part.
Anyways, we were a 6 player, 22 CP table. So high tier (+3 DC adjustment) and 6 players, so +2 successes needed per check. This doesn't combine well IMO. They also chose to leave Amkha behind, so no free anti-critical failure once per obstacle.
With the first two rooms needing 6 successes, and means you need a crit for every fail to balance things out. All the level 1/2s were struggling to hit the adjusted DCs (but looking at the target numbers, felt they look OK-ish.... just the need everyone to succceed bit seems a bit off). So the first two rooms collapsed on them.
One clarification: The scenario says after one round the rooms begin to collapse. I was assuming that meant after a round of skill checks, the back most room collapses, so after the first set of skill checks, the throne room collapses. I could also see a more literal combination of the Chase rules and the scenario rules, being that the 'opponent' begins moving after the first round, and thus would reach the throne room on the second round, triggering the collapse one turn later. I don't think that's the intent, but it would ameliorate the full successes needed in the first two rounds issue above.
They did make it the rest of way just barely staying ahead, and it came down to the level-bumped level 1 character's final role to be the last success before escaping.
I think the skill DCS still look right to me, I might have liked one extra option per obstacle (but I now word count gets in the way). And I think the first room probably shouldn't be an all-must succeed room in future chases -- The ability for the party to do the 'who does this room, who hopes for more appropriate checks in the next room" choice, doesn't come up when all must succeed, and each round you get forced into the next room anyways.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Anyways, we were a 6 player, 22 CP table. So high tier (+3 DC adjustment) and 6 players, so +2 successes needed per check. This doesn't combine well IMO. They also chose to leave Amkha behind, so no free anti-critical failure once per obstacle.
With the first two rooms needing 6 successes, and means you need a crit for every fail to balance things out. All the level 1/2s were struggling to hit the adjusted DCs (but looking at the target numbers, felt they look OK-ish.... just the need everyone to succceed bit seems a bit off). So the first two rooms collapsed on them.
I agree that it's harsh, but it's fairly consistent with other chases based on the GMG so far. I think the actual problem may be that the GMG minigames are balanced around the idea of a 4-person party where everyone is the same level, and that PFS is quite far away from that assumption. So the math works out weird.
Maybe this is something to take to a more general discussion thread though, since it affects multiple scenarios? Lessons to be learned for future scenario writing and all that.
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** spoiler omitted **
I found the Encounter Appendices annoying in that they don't reference the Area designations in the main text, just the names. Also, both the Tier 1-2 and 3-4 Appendices are missing A2 which just adds to the confusion. The description of the item found in area B3 assumes the item in area B2 was already found, but when the players approach Areas B2 and B3, they are just as likely to go to Area B3 first. I am also used to having things numbers from left to right, so the fact that Area B3 is on the left side of Area B2 on page 7 didn't help.
The final encounter was definitely not what they expected, but they all said they had fun.
AGREE 100%. A very bad bit of editing here. In past adventures, the Encounter Appendices were tagged with the area. Seems like whom ever was setting up that part was not looking at the scenario. Or the scenario numbering got changed and the ball got dropped.
Please, Paizo, you generally do a great job on this. A little more "eye focus" please!
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Question on the boon. Can you select Cyclops as a bonus language for a starting character (provided their ancestry includes any languages to which you have access)? If so, can a character that played the scenario, but is still within the rebuild period, swap one of their starting languages for Cyclops? Can Cyclops not normally be taken with Multilingual, even though it's Uncommon, and Multilingual appears to let you take Uncommon languages without the boon? It's all a little confusing to me, and I just want to figure out if the character that played the scenario can select the language without taking a feat to do so or waiting until 10th level when their INT increases will grant them another bonus language (starting at 18 INT, so no extra language at 5th level).
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Question on the boon. Can you select Cyclops as a bonus language for a starting character (provided their ancestry includes any languages to which you have access)? If so, can a character that played the scenario, but is still within the rebuild period, swap one of their starting languages for Cyclops? Can Cyclops not normally be taken with Multilingual, even though it's Uncommon, and Multilingual appears to let you take Uncommon languages without the boon? It's all a little confusing to me, and I just want to figure out if the character that played the scenario can select the language without taking a feat to do so or waiting until 10th level when their INT increases will grant them another bonus language (starting at 18 INT, so no extra language at 5th level).
Are you looked at the AcP boon? I have not seen it so don't know what the wording says.
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Question on the boon. Can you select Cyclops as a bonus language for a starting character (provided their ancestry includes any languages to which you have access)? If so, can a character that played the scenario, but is still within the rebuild period, swap one of their starting languages for Cyclops? Can Cyclops not normally be taken with Multilingual, even though it's Uncommon, and Multilingual appears to let you take Uncommon languages without the boon? It's all a little confusing to me, and I just want to figure out if the character that played the scenario can select the language without taking a feat to do so or waiting until 10th level when their INT increases will grant them another bonus language (starting at 18 INT, so no extra language at 5th level).Are you looked at the AcP boon? I have not seen it so don't know what the wording says.
Yes. It's weird asking questions about the boons now, since I don't think it's printed anywhere in the scenario, and assigning them with GM credit isn't working at the moment.
SPECIAL This boon applies to all of your Pathfinder Society (second edition) characters.
Just not sure if rebuilding a starting language counts as "gain a language," and I'm also confused by it saying it opens access for Multilingual, when Multilingual seems to already grant access without the boon. But that's a secondary question. The Character Options page currently reads as though all options from the Bestiary are standard access, but that might not be meant to be the case.