That sounds great to me. I don't mind a loss of power, but flavor wise I'd like them to have separate skills.
If Eidolons get "their own" skills, the class will almost certainly lose out on base skill selection or skill options and make some sort of compromise for Eidolon skills (IE Eidolons get a tiny base skill allotment and must add others via evolutions).
I dont think Summoners will "win out" if the class goes that path compares to the current one, myself.
No thank you! We had that in PF1, and it was miserable. Top reason for me not playing Summoner much was the absolutely terrible skills.
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I cant believe im reading someone argue against a bird pokemon having any sort of ability to fly.
Not a single person has argued that.
On the other hand, not everyone agrees that a Fly Speed (the mechanic) is needed for a creature to be capable of flying... just you know, not during encounters or skill challenges until the appropriate level.
At which point literally every single Eidolon can fly in every encounter you can refocus for.
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Infact i believe manual dexterity should but cut entirely unless you get say a "humanoid" Subtype.
Oh yes, let's cripple a ton of other eidolons so your already supported concept can come online sooner.
I fully support your desire to run a bird - from level 1 even!
I'm just asking you to reign in what it does (not necessarily what it can do when not in one of the game modes) for the good of rhe whole Table, because the entire system has been build such that certain things aren't universally available until a given level in progression.
In this case, it may mean your bird Eidolon functions as a video game bird in an RPG, unable to fetch an item on a ledge far above you, because it doesnt gain Fly until much later in the game.
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Again, banking on all enemies knowing the metagame mechanics of how Summoners work isn't valid defense for the "balance" you're pushing for.Yes because all those poor ground based enemies will be just standing their scratching there heads at a Gasp! creature that can fly what witchcraft is this! instead of attacking the ground based summoner standing in front of them. Such metagaming!
The summoner can be up to 100 feet away, hiding or invisible.
Why would you assume them to be vulnerable?
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Again, banking on all enemies knowing the metagame mechanics of how Summoners work isn't valid defense for the "balance" you're pushing for.Yes because all those poor ground based enemies will be just standing their scratching there heads at a Gasp! creature that can fly what witchcraft is this! instead of attacking the ground based summoner standing in front of them. Such metagaming!
Why is it only the Summoner and Eidolon in this encounter?
Again, random enemies foregoing all other threats to go after the Summoner because they know if they take out the Summoner the Eidolon goes too is metagaming.
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if you want that then go play 4e.
Some of 2Es best changes - like multiclassing - are essentially straight out of 4E.
In general, thats PF2Es greatest strength - it took the best aspects from a lot of things, and merged them into PF1E for a great result.
Maybe though, instead of calling certain concepts or ideas dumb, you could make a real attempt to work with the system instead of against it - so it can have a real chance to work as designed.
The idea thay only mechanical customization counts as customization IS way more videogamey than birds that only fly at ground level - its a denial of the fact that we aren't bound like a videogame, because tabletop RPGs are games of imagination and we need only use the bits of videogames that make sense.
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Infact i believe manual dexterity should but cut entirely unless you get say a "humanoid" Subtype.
Oh yes, let's cripple a ton of other eidolons so your already supported concept can come online sooner.
I fully support your desire to run a bird - from level 1 even!
I'm just asking you to reign in what it does (not necessarily what it can do when not in one of the game modes) for the good of rhe whole Table, because the entire system has been build such that certain things aren't universally available until a given level in progression.
In this case, it may mean your bird Eidolon functions as a video game bird in an RPG, unable to fetch an item on a ledge far above you, because it doesnt gain Fly until much later in the game.
Yes i would rather have some abilities taken away at first so we can have far more customizability. really all eidolons having manual dexterity is dumb. The way starfinder did drone customization is far superior to what we have now.
This isnt an rpg videogame. Infact i want it to be as far away from that thinking as possible. if you want that then go play 4e.
Correct, it is an RPG tabletop game, one where we can and are encouraged to use our imagination.
AS Krispy points out, ignoring everything in favor of strictly mechanics for customization and aesthetics is more of a gamification than anything.
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Luckily the designers aren't of your opinion, and understand mechanics have value. The whole reason some people like to play a game with rules versus just making everything up from scratch ^_^
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Luckily the designers aren't of your opinion, and understand mechanics have value. The whole reason some people like to play a game with rules versus just making everything up from scratch ^_^
I dont think I'd like the game as much as I do if the designers were as all in as mechanics as you imply.
PF2E is extremely supportive of narrative gameplay and roleplaying, to the point that all the "mechanics are the most important thing!" Talk sounds to me like it talking about some other system than PF2E...
Actually, that one is fair. I haven't seen you argue to just use your imagination, Rysky, but Krispy quite literally has said multiple times that climbing is basically flying, so just pretend you're flying. Not arguing one way or another if they're incorrect, just pointing out that they did say that and Temperans isn't making it up.
Every summoner can bypass vertical obstacles at level 5 by granting themselves a climb speed, which can easily be flavored as limited flight.
The same is true of the Climbing Evolution at 6, which could easily be renamed something like "Ascension Evolution" or just have this added to its description.
I cant believe im reading someone argue against a bird pokemon having any sort of ability to fly.Not a single person has argued that.
On the other hand, not everyone agrees that a Fly Speed (the mechanic) is needed for a creature to be capable of flying... just you know, not during encounters or skill challenges until the appropriate level.
At which point literally every single Eidolon can fly in every encounter you can refocus for.