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When you play a character with high defenses, after a while the gm stops targeting you. When your character rarely gets hit and rarely fails a save, you start getting ignored. The resources you put into being a tank are now wasted, and if anything, are actually harming the party as the gm targets weaker characters instead of yours. I find this to be nearly universal, and it makes sense. The gm wants to have fun and challenge the party, not miss miss miss. Even gms who are very fair and don't think they do this, still tend to do it unconsciously to some extent ime.
So here's the idea. Make a character with a terrible basic defenses, but other ways to mitigate damage in order to be good at attracting attacks, and being able to take them. You want to look easy to hit too, in order to give the gm every excuse to spend their attacks on your character and not the rest of the party.
My initial thought is DR and fast healing. Bloodrager with the verdant bloodline to get fast healing. Primalist archetype to trade out your 4,8,&12 bloodline powers for rage powers, for improved DR (4 gives an ac bonus which you don't want, so take some rage power instead). For feats you take endurance, diehard, fast healer, combat expertise, stalwart/imp for more dr, raging vitality for more con for more fast healer. You end up at high levels with something like DR20/-, fast healing 10, and hundreds of hp. Which is decent, but without any AC at high levels, you'll still get chewed down pretty quick. I looked at some sample monsters for level 12 and it looked like you'd last 3-4 rounds on average. At that point, you really need power attack as you still need to be doing some damage to keep monster attention. Even with accuracy stance, power attack + expertise puts your to hit bonus pretty low. (there's a trait to reduce that expertise penalty by 1, but that's all the mitigating I could find there).
Anyway, mostly just build theorizing for fun. Anyone have other thoughts, shenanigans other classes can pull off to accomplish this idea? Similar things to do on the saves side (ie having poor save bonuses but being able to mitigate/overcome failed saves in other ways).
The idea is not to be op or invincible, but to find an alternative means of tanking that lets the GM hit you frequently, but reliably keeps you alive (Ideally you'd have the same rate of survival as a high AC build, and not require an extra amount of resources from the rest of the party to keep you alive).
I had a Panache champion, built specifically to maximize the utility of Panache. He wore no armor, but had Wis+Dex+Int to AC, Parry & Reposte, Panther Parry, Crane Reposte... he went levels 9-12 without taking a single point of damage, but was in the middle of every fight.
He used Panther Parry to be up in the middle of every fight, drawing AoO from everyone he could via movement. He was an absolute menace... impossible to hit, impossible to ignore. He would walk right up the anyone and everyone on the battlefield, fearlessly punch them in the throat before they could even AoO.
I retired him because he became boringly invincible.
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I have never encountered the problem you speak of. A fair/good GM will have the bad guys act appropriately regardless of the party's stats.
What I have found is that players tend to overbuild their character's strengths. once your AC get's so high, you really don't need to pump it anymore and you should be spending those resources on other things. The same can be said of skills, to hit, etc.
HP, DR and self-healing can all contribute to a tank, but each of them is a double-edged sword:
High HP means the attacker can enjoy more high damage numbers until they have to move on (or stop, because the encounter is over). However, too much time at a single opponent can feel like a slog.
DR is fun when you know it's there but you are bypassing it. Usually it's just annoying to hit but get a good share of the damage negated. The combination of excitement and then frustration is... unpleasant.
Self-healing increases effective HP, so it can contribute to fun. It should only compensate a minority of the HP lost to damage, though, otherwise you negate the efforts of the attacker too much.
Miss chances (concealment, blink, mirror images etc.) are no fun for an attacker. Yes, you get a short spike of satisfication if you hit despite these tricks, but most of the time it's just annoying.
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So, that leaves us with high HP and self-healing for optimized GM bait. Hence I propose a spelleater bloodrager - someone who trades away DR on purpose and gets a bit of swift self-healing on top. Yup, he likely has a harder time without DR. The main advantage is that you can sacrifice bloodrage rounds for healing out of combat. Given you can get 6 rounds for a feat or 1 for a point of FCB, that's not bad. Beyond that, I'd go for additional sources of fast healing (as infernal healing) and for temporary hitpoints (false life, vampiric touch).
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Mitigation for non-hp stuff:
Bead of Newt Prevention -- one time prevent polymorph attack
Deathless Armor -- protection for negative energy and negative level attacks
Karyukai Tea Set -- general long term buffing if you have CHA
Ring of Mind Shielding -- immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and detect alignment
Ring of the Sublime -- protection from fear
Charm of Fate -- get +5 to first failed save of the day and maybe not fail
Charm of the Thriceborn -- preroll 3d20 and use random one in place of later roll
Fate-Woven Braid Of The Norns -- reroll up to 3/day any nat 1 on a d20
Four Leaf Clover -- get +2 luck 3/day to saving throws or other stuff
Ioun Stone (Pale Green Prism (cracked)) -- get +1 on saves
False Flag Tabard -- buff AC for a short time 1/day
Runeward Tattoos -- buff saves to one school of magic
Clockwork Songbird -- can give +1 dodge to AC and reflex saves or give +1 attack and damage
I am sure there are others.
/cevah
I’ve ran a low AC tank before. It really struggles against critical hits. Almost every threat confirms. If you’re fighting a bunch of enemies with high multipliers, you can get floored fast.
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Play a masochistic paladin. The basic Idea is that you use lay on hand to heal yourself as a swift action. Take the feat fey foundling for extra healing and spend your resources on maximizing lay on hands. The Warrior of the Holy Light gives you extra lay on hands. Going Half-Elf will allow you to take the elven favored class bonus. Bracers of the merciful knight boost your lay on hands by 4 levels. Greater Mercy gives you and extra d6 when none of your mercies apply. At 12th level you should be healing for 8d6+14 (9d6+15 with greater mercy) and have about 15 lay on hands per day. You can also boost the number of lay on hands with extra lay on hands.
Use heavy armor to get some AC but keep your AC low enough that it is not too hard to hit. This is balancing act. You want to keep your AC low enough that you look like a tempting target, but not so low you get slaughtered.
You still have all the other defenses of a paladin including good saves and immunities.
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Invulnerable Rager is generally perfect for this.
INVULNERABLE RAGER
Some barbarians learn to take whatever comes their way,
shrugging off mortal wounds with ease. These barbarians
invite their enemies to attack them, and use pain to fuel their
rage. An invulnerable rager has the following class features.
Invulnerability (Ex): At 2nd level, the invulnerable
rager gains DR/— equal to half her barbarian level. This
damage reduction is doubled against nonlethal damage.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge, improved uncanny
dodge, and damage reduction.
Extreme Endurance (Ex): At 3rd level, the invulnerable
rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose
one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian
gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels
beyond 3rd. This ability replaces trap sense.
Now while some rage powers suggested for the Archetype do fit pretty well.
Reckless Abandon (Ex): While raging, the barbarian can take
a –1 penalty to AC to gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls. The AC
penalty increases by –1 and the attack roll bonus increases
by +1 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
When combined with the feat - Power Attack
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by
sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all
melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain
a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to
damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making
an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed
weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon
that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage
rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are
making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary
natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches
+4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases
by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must
choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and
its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage
does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal
hit point damage.
But you also want to invest it healing oneself. Sadly with this build it takes a while to make the investments add up, 3 Feats in fact, which is why I generally play a human with this build. (which on topic makes one an ideal target by monsters generally)
The feats to invest in are Endurance, Diehard and of course Fast Healing.
and certainly at level 4 you want to take Renewed Vigor.
This type of character the main stat you want to be your highest is Constitution with Strength being the second highest.
I used this starting concept and build in Reign of winter, at the higher levels I also increased my Energy resistance to cold, and could absorb cold damage to heal myself at the higher levels.
The character survived every encounter, even when the 'Tanks' of the group ended up dying in pretty short order. The hard part was the build generally always goes last in Initiative order. (moves like an actual tank)
Swordplay style negates the penalty from combat expertise on one attack/round. You might have trouble getting the required feats on a bloodrager/barbarian with investment elsewhere of course.
Getting hit through having a lousy AC doesn't just mean you lose hp. It also means you're subject to poison, paralysis, spell effects and so on. And in many cases, those spell effects will have no saving throw, or one for half effect which is annoying enough.
I'm playing a Bloodrager in Iron Gods (where there are a LOT of things that target Touch AC) and he's been the only front-liner since level 1 (we're level 10 now).
Up until level 5-ish he was able to tank with AC (Breastplate -
+ Shield + Fight Defensively = 21 AC) but that's gone from game-breakingly-good to worthless-waste-of-time in just a couple of levels.
I've actually struggled for a few levels but recently had a chance to spend our cash (~20,000gp) so going into level 10 this is what I have:
High HP: - 120 normally, 150 when raging.
DR:1: - Not much but it's something.
Fire Resistance 10: - Minor Ring of Fire Resistance is huge in a game with Lasers. I also have the Resist Energy spell for when we encounter enemies with Zero Rifles or somesuch.
Fast Healing 1: - Got myself some Boots of the Earth, and when I combine this with Ablative Barrier it's kind-of Fast Healing 2.
20% Miss chance: - Got a Cloak of Displacement (minor), which will do more to reduce the number of hits than upoing my armour would have.
25% Crit-negation: - Light Fortification Armour. Between this and tye Cloak of Displacement it takes the chance to confirm a crit from 95% (almost a given) to 57% (almost a coin toss).
Force enemy rerolls: - I took a level of Dual-cursed Oracle and I have the Misfortune revelation. No save, 1/day/enemy force a reroll after I see the roll but before I know the result (also handy for when my allies roll a 1 on important saves).
So with all those I can ignore my AC and just get up in the enemy's grill. We have a wizard, a bard and a gunslinger in the party, so I' usually hasted, inspired and heroism'd. While enlarged and Raging I'm dealing ~6d6+23 damage with an 18-20 crit chance (chainsaw with a Gravity Clip) and I have 15 foot reach (Aberrant bloodrager) and Combat Reflexes, so I can force pretty much everyone to pay attention to me.
I'm actually not the highest DPR character in the party because I've spent more feats/stats/money on increasing my defenseess (I accidently endee up with the highest will save in the party), so my To-Hit rolls aren't wuite what they should be. Even with a low To-Hit nobody wants to provoke an AoO because the chance of death is still real, so I often still fight defensively (it helps a little) and just take up space while the Gunslinger an Wizard kill everything.
I have found that the times when we have trouble as a party are the times when I as a player am tired. Whenever I'm not on my A-game (remembering what things I can do and working out the best positioning) I tend to go down faster and if I'm down the rest of the party struggles to make space and gets overwhelmed pretty quickly.
Earth/water kinetic knight.
"But Ryan, the kinetic knight requires a shield and heavy armor, how is that low AC?"
Well folks, you simply don't spend gold on your armor or shield. Otherwise it has a 20% miss chance from the water defense+utility boost and dr adamantine 1/2 your level.
You can pretty easily hover around 21-22 ac...perfectly hittable, while having good survivability from DR and miss chance.
That said. The key to a good tank is the ability to FORCE enemies to engage you and kinetic knight lets you do that as well with kinetic whip and a utility that can let you grow to large or huge size, quite simply occupying all the space between the enemy and your party.
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The idea is to increase gm fun, so Swashbucklers are right out. Parry and riposte is even worse than having untouchable ac for gm frustration and deciding not to attack you.
I was thinking DR is good because the gm still gets to say he hits and does lots of damage. They don't really need to hear exactly how much you reduce it by every time, you can just say I take less from DR and leave it at that.
Healing is definitely the best, but if you're going the bag of hp route, you need to be able so supply your own somehow. I really hate players who bring high hp low ac characters and expect the rest of the party to keep them alive. Those characters are just a burden on the rest of the group, sucking up resources like a leech.
I like the paladin idea, I never noticed those bracers, that's a good find. I've thought about doing a healing paladin before. Gives me another idea: Cleric of the blossoming light, load up on charisma, take purifying channel to do some damage while healing. At that point you just become the healer though. hmm
Invulnerable rager can get even higher dr, but I was thinking the fast healing from bloodrager would be better.
That's a good point about crits, getting fortification would probably be necessary. Which makes me think, there's probably some good alchemist builds that would work here. You can get fast healing and fortification from discoveries. Heal yourself with extracts as well as condition removal.
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Play a masochistic paladin. The basic Idea is that you use lay on hand to heal yourself as a swift action. Take the feat fey foundling for extra healing and spend your resources on maximizing lay on hands. The Warrior of the Holy Light gives you extra lay on hands. Going Half-Elf will allow you to take the elven favored class bonus. Bracers of the merciful knight boost your lay on hands by 4 levels. Greater Mercy gives you and extra d6 when none of your mercies apply. At 12th level you should be healing for 8d6+14 (9d6+15 with greater mercy) and have about 15 lay on hands per day. You can also boost the number of lay on hands with extra lay on hands.
It's better than you think. Your Paladin would get 6d6 (Paladin) plus 2d6 (Bracers) plus 6 (Favoured class bonus) = 8d6+6 without Fey Foundling (plus 1d6 with Greater Mercy).
Fey Foundling give +2hp per die no matter the source, so it becomes 6d6+12 (Paladin) plus 2d6+4 (Bracers) plus 6 (Favoured class bonus) = 8d6+22 with Fey Foundling (plus 1d6+2 with Greater Mercy).
For the most healz you can also use Hero's Defiance, which (when combined with Greater Mercy) becomes 10d6+26hp (~61hp) healed as a swift action.
(And I guess if you're really min-maxing go Tiefling since their FCB is strictly better for self healing.)
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I had a silly build using a Samurai with most feats going into Unconquerable Resolve (can also be done with a Kinetic Knight, as they get the Resolve class feature at lvl 3). Every time you use Resolve, you also gain 1 temp HP per HD, stacking with the number of times you've taken the feat. So if you went crazy with it (probably not optimal...), at level 9 as a Human Samurai, you could have taken the feat 6 times, giving you 9(HD)×6(feats)=54 temp HP at a minimum of 5 times per day. At 20, you could have 10 uses that each give 20x11=220 HP.
Resolve can be used as a standard action to remove conditions, and more importantly as an immediate action when dropped below zero HP to stabilize yourself.
Toss in the Yojimbo archetype so you can use your Resolve feature on others, and/or the Headband of Deathless Devotion to boost Resolve by 2 class levels.
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I had a silly build using a Samurai with most feats going into Unconquerable Resolve (can also be done with a Kinetic Knight, as they get the Resolve class feature at lvl 3). Every time you use Resolve, you also gain 1 temp HP per HD, stacking with the number of times you've taken the feat. So if you went crazy with it (probably not optimal...), at level 9 as a Human Samurai, you could have taken the feat 6 times, giving you 9(HD)×6(feats)=54 temp HP at a minimum of 5 times per day. At 20, you could have 10 uses that each give 20x11=220 HP.
Resolve can be used as a standard action to remove conditions, and more importantly as an immediate action when dropped below zero HP to stabilize yourself.
Toss in the Yojimbo archetype so you can use your Resolve feature on others, and/or the Headband of Deathless Devotion to boost Resolve by 2 class levels.
Nice! That covers both damage and poor saves. I'll have to take a closer look at samurai now. I've only ever seen one person play one and never even really looked at the class much myself.
I really like the Warrior Poet archetype for the Samurai, but between your archetype and Order, you have a few options in your build style.
It could also be worth a dip outside of the class into Fighter or another with early level bonus feats to stack a few more copies of Unconquerable Resolve or other feats. Would boost the HP gain per use, while potentially getting less daily uses of Resolve (and higher level Samurai class options, of course).
I don't have suggestion for the exact build idea, but just want to say I agree with the original premise that even the best GM will have your character be relevant only for a 2 rounds if you make your character super tanky. Smart enemies might spend 2 rounds trying to do something to you, and when they find they cannot (and especially if you aren't doing much to them) will begin ignoring you and going for the softer targets behind you, kind of the opposite of what you're after as a "tank".
Personally I think the answer is make someone with moderate AC, high HP, damage mitigation, possibly self healing, and good saves or other ways to mitigate effects from spells.
You don't want to make yourself unassailable, the enemy should rightfully ignore you if you are unassailable and also less damage than your friends.
I think of it like this, if I was a solider on a battlefield and saw a literal tank I would be scared. If I then discovered this tank was out of ammo for it's main gun and only had some sort of pistol being wielded by the guy inside....well I'm going to ignore the tank and focus on his friend behind him with the rocket launder (spells).
In general, at least in my groups version of Golarion, spell casters (especially arcane) are the most dangerous people on the battlefield, and if you're identified as one you will be targeted for death above other targets unless your party makes it impossible to do so.
And no amount of AC, DR, saves, HP, etc change that modus operandi for the enemy.
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One of the best strategies I have found to keep tank-type characters viable is to heavily invest in mobility.
A tank character is a decoy. A distraction. You use them for positioning... flanking, battlefield control, stuff like that. Their entire prupose is to harass and menace the enemy for as long as possible. Just get in the way, and survive.
Having at least one repeatable way to move and attack, or get up in the enemy's face, or follow them around, is essential... otherwise the enemy will rightfully ignore you.
A generic Fighter with a Mithral Beastplate, Mithral buckler, and a +1 Bardiche can have Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Step Up, Spring Attack, Follow Up, and Step Up and Strike or Disruptive by 6th level... and will be a better distraction than a lot of other so-called tanks wasting resources on tanky-ness.
When you play a character with high defenses, after a while the gm stops targeting you. When your character rarely gets hit and rarely fails a save, you start getting ignored. The resources you put into being a tank are now wasted, and if anything, are actually harming the party as the gm targets weaker characters instead of yours. I find this to be nearly universal, and it makes sense. The gm wants to have fun and challenge the party, not miss miss miss. Even gms who are very fair and don't think they do this, still tend to do it unconsciously to some extent ime.
I find that the trick is to be doing something that the NPC's/GM cannot ignore in addition to having high defenses.
This could be damage, multiple stacking debuffs, or boosting everyone else's AC to the point that targeting them is almost as much of a waste as targeting you.
One of the reasons I enjoy the magus is that it can be built to along any of these lines while still having high defenses.
gnoams: I hear you.
High level play is such drudgery for a GM. You have to throw waves of monsters at them and pretend to smile when they come up with their amazing feat combos. Tanks or worse, monks with funky archetypes, are just impossible to hit by both weapon or spell. The only time you slow them down is with stuff that don't grant a save like Maze, Scintillating Pattern or Waves of Exhaustion, and then only momentarily for a round or two.
High level villains share the same hatred for heroes that GMs have. Therefore they try to catch the heroes with their pants down when they sleep at night. Or they hide from the Tanks and Monks and target the mages and priests and bards in the back row hoping those guys are not buffed.
It's hard to be a villain. It's worse to be a GM, as it is 'bad form' to truly take the depraved road a villain would take against hero-gods gunning for them.
In Pathfinder, the villains are like "The Boyz" taking on "Supes" that are gunning for them in premeditated organized raids.
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gnoams: I hear you.
High level play is such drudgery for a GM. You have to throw waves of monsters at them and pretend to smile when they come up with their amazing feat combos. Tanks or worse, monks with funky archetypes, are just impossible to hit by both weapon or spell. The only time you slow them down is with stuff that don't grant a save like Maze, Scintillating Pattern or Waves of Exhaustion, and then only momentarily for a round or two.
High level villains share the same hatred for heroes that GMs have. Therefore they try to catch the heroes with their pants down when they sleep at night. Or they hide from the Tanks and Monks and target the mages and priests and bards in the back row hoping those guys are not buffed.
It's hard to be a villain. It's worse to be a GM, as it is 'bad form' to truly take the depraved road a villain would take against hero-gods gunning for them.
In Pathfinder, the villains are like "The Boyz" taking on "Supes" that are gunning for them in premeditated organized raids.
start using evil adventuring groups instead of monsters.
Alas, APs fall short in this aspect, and instead tend to throw an easily swarmable single kaiju at the party...
The idea is to increase gm fun, so Swashbucklers are right out. Parry and riposte is even worse than having untouchable ac for gm frustration and deciding not to attack you.
I'm running Shackled City right now converted to PF and one of my players is a Swashbuckler. His character performs amazingly well as the "tank", is still just wearing a plain old Chain Shirt at 5th level.
I don't find the Swashbuckler Deeds to be "frustrating", nor do I base the decisions of various monsters or NPCs on my expectations of the character's performance.
Personally, I find the Swashbuckler more interesting on the table than a Tank who's main claim to fame is massive HP, but if one of my players wanted to play one I'd have zero issues.
gnoams: I hear you.
High level play is such drudgery for a GM. You have to throw waves of monsters at them and pretend to smile when they come up with their amazing feat combos. Tanks or worse, monks with funky archetypes, are just impossible to hit by both weapon or spell. The only time you slow them down is with stuff that don't grant a save like Maze, Scintillating Pattern or Waves of Exhaustion, and then only momentarily for a round or two.
High level villains share the same hatred for heroes that GMs have. Therefore they try to catch the heroes with their pants down when they sleep at night. Or they hide from the Tanks and Monks and target the mages and priests and bards in the back row hoping those guys are not buffed.
It's hard to be a villain. It's worse to be a GM, as it is 'bad form' to truly take the depraved road a villain would take against hero-gods gunning for them.
In Pathfinder, the villains are like "The Boyz" taking on "Supes" that are gunning for them in premeditated organized raids.
Don't you want your players to succeed? I don't understand why a GM would be unhappy if players use their characters effectively and succeed?
Ah! there's success, and there's cakewalk. Most GMs AND players don't appreciate cakewalks. Might as well just narrate the adventure and declare that they kill all monsters in sight within minutes: it would be less of a waste of time to do so. Players must face a suitable challenge for there to be fun. Therein lies the challenge and why an experienced GM makes a huge difference. Don't be afraid to draw outside the lines if you GM a Pathfinder group. Adapt on the fly and manage the fun as you go. Don't impede the players or needlessly create an atmosphere of despair, but DO challenge them!
easiest path of challenging high level characters are suitable skill challenges. At high levels, everyone is pretty optimized for rock 'em, sock 'em in whatever form that may take, but skills rarely get the same lovin'. Start asking for some DC 35+ skill checks (or whatever has a chance to succeed on a 14+ or so) and watch them really start to sweat an encounter.
I think these make for some of the more intense and memorable encounters anyways.
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So that's nice if you don't have any problems in your games, but also completely unhelpful. When I'm running my own game, I have all the experience I need to keep the game fun and interesting, but again, not the point.
Sometimes, I like to play games too. As a player, it is neither fun nor helpful of me to tell the gm they're doing it wrong or tell them I don't have such problems when running my games or anything like that.
So for those gms (and there are many of them) who aren't so experienced, who don't understand the game mechanics so well they are able to tweak everything into perfect balance. For those gms who get frustrated with how powerful the pcs seem to be. What can we, as experience players, do to help them have fun, without sacrificing our own enjoyment of the game?
That was the question that led me to this build concept of seeing if I could make a character that was still mechanically difficult to kill, while doing so in a way that they still get affected by enemies readily, instead of the usual way of having defenses so high that most effects just miss.
If two characters go into a combat, and one is successful because they avoid many attacks and the other is successful because they have a mountain of HP, why dies it matter? I don’t see any reason having a low AC but seriously high hp character is really a true difference.
This is a GM problem, not a mechanics problem.
There is no build that can be dominant in every encounter if the campaign includes a wide variety of diverse challenges.
If a GM is using a whiteboard approach of simply throwing generic monsters at PCs, roll for init and fight it out then the GM needs to make adjustments.
If two characters go into a combat, and one is successful because they avoid many attacks and the other is successful because they have a mountain of HP, why dies it matter? I don’t see any reason having a low AC but seriously high hp character is really a true difference.
This is a GM problem, not a mechanics problem.
There is no build that can be dominant in every encounter if the campaign includes a wide variety of diverse challenges.
If a GM is using a whiteboard approach of simply throwing generic monsters at PCs, roll for init and fight it out then the GM needs to make adjustments.
I was thinking something similar... I don't see this as an issue of mechanics, at all.
As a GM, for me, at least, there is no real difference between hitting Player A every time, but they have so much HP it doesn't matter, missing Player B every time because their AC is so high, or having Player C parry every attack... effectively, they are alive and the enemies probably aren't.
My enjoyment comes from a fun and engaging encounter, not how much damage I do to the party. Like when the Rogue got swallowed whole and asked to stay inside so he could keep chopping at its guts. That is cool. I don't care how close I got the Rogue to dying, and I'm actually glad he didn't die, because the encounter was better with him cutting the Jotund Troll in half.. from the inside.
I can't even remember the last time I actually did damage to the party's ZAM/Inquisitor. I might have hit her once a few levels ago... 16 or 17, maybe? They're 19 now. I still fun even though she casually counters every-freaking-thing I throw at her. She literally hasn't done anything crazy or special with the build, either.
I have fun throwing tank builds at the party... make them adjust. Yeah, you've hit them every turn. Yes, they are still alive. Or, no, a 48 does not hit. Or, the bandit chops every single one of your arrows out of the air. All those tricks work both ways.
Eh, players B and C don't suffer any add on effects to attacks. Player A is grappled, energy drained, friggin aged, paralyzed, etc etc etc
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How many ways can I explain. Lets see.
In my experience, there are many GMs that I have played with, who get frustrated with the mechanics of the game, and the status quo of how things operate when played as written. Namely that in certain level ranges pcs become untouchable due to high defenses. Yes there are GM's who don't get bothered by that, or who change the balance so these players are still challenged, or whatever.
This is for the GMs who do get frustrated. Yes this is a GM problem. Doesn't matter, I'm not trying to teach anyone how to GM. I'm just looking at me, when I play with one of these people, and things I can do to mitigate their frustration. I want everyone to enjoy the game. To that end, the idea of exploring these nonstandard builds.
Yeah I think everyone's getting a bit distracted here.
Who cares why, the question is: How would you make a Low-AC Tank character?
We can include all that "tanking isn't a thing" nonsense as well - factor in whatever you need to factor in and let's see some builds or suggestions for how to make this work.
A low AC tank is going to require damage mitigation, because the enemy will make more rolls than they don't.
Opportune Parry & Riposte.
Chop/Smash From the Air.
Deflect/Snatch Arrows.
Some sort of Damage Reduction and/or Miss Chance.
Probably the improved versions of save feats, so you can reroll failed saves... going to get hit enough that conditions WILL occur.
A low AC tank is going to require damage mitigation, because the enemy will make more rolls than they don't.
Opportune Parry & Riposte.
Chop/Smash From the Air.
Deflect/Snatch Arrows.Some sort of Damage Reduction and/or Miss Chance.
Probably the improved versions of save feats, so you can reroll failed saves... going to get hit enough that conditions WILL occur.
If you read the OP, this is exactly what the OP DOESN’T want. He wants a tank that’s easy to hit and has no misss chance or damage avoidance. Because that’s not fun for the GM! LOL
High AC? NO FUN!
Ability to parry? NO FUN!
Miss chance? NO FUN!
LOL
How do you make this class? You don’t. It’s not a mechanics problem, it’s a GM problem.
As a GM, I literally don't see the problem with any of those things...
If a player has Smash From Air or Opportune Parry & Riposte or a minor Cloak of Displacement... it's part of game, man. F!ck!ng deal with it.
It's fun, actually, being on the recieving end of all the BS I throw at the party. I wonder how many times THEY get frustrated with enemies chopping arrows out of the air, or parrying and riposting their attacks. Because I use those tricks OFTEN on enemies. And the party just has to deal with it.
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I'm playing a character like this at the moment. It's totally doable. There are weaknesses, but I'm definitely pulling my weight.
Without an actual build here are some thoughts.
Hitpoints - You'll need a lot.
Damage Reduction - obviously.
Energy Resistance - doesn't have to be always on but it's a good thing to have available.
Crit Negation - Get some (fortified armour etc).
Saves - Make sure they're high. Being hit is fine, being Dominated/Paralyzed/Disintegrated/Trapped-in-a-pit is not.
Miss Chance - 50% miss chance is no fun, but 20% will increase your survivability by ~25% while still leaving the GM feeling haply with their ~76% hit rate. This also helps negate crits, making that fortified armour go further.
In-Combat-Healing - It doesn't matter if it's Lay on Hands, Fervor, Fast Healing or whatever you prefer, but getting something that heals you while fighting will increase your survivability.
Hit Hard - There's no point taking an axe to the face if you're just going to miss and take another axe to the face. Make sure you have a role in combat besides taking damage and then perform that roll as effectively as possible. Debuffing enemies, buffing allies and just straight up damage are all ways to make the enemy's day as bad as possible. In the spirit of this thread I recommend just hitting things really hard (because buffing/debuffing might turn the entire party invincible and that's what we're trying to avoid), but whatever floats your boat.
Battlefield control - There's no point being invincible if the enemies can avoid you and kill your allies. Being a damage dealer (or buffer/debuffer) means they're incentivised to attack you, but if you can make yourself the only viable target then even better. Reach weapons and/or Enlarge Person are great. Battlefield controll spells (walls/fogs/entangling roots/etc) will be great too. Even just finding a doorway to make your stand might be all that's necessary. Take a lesson from the Brave 300 and pick a place to make your stand.
Mobility - This point ties directly into Battlefield Control. Why fight 2 enemies at once when you can fight 2 enemies one at a time? If they're trying to flank you then go kill one of them before they meet up in flanking positions. You want to be in the place that best lets your party focus-fire enemies down while stopping the enemy from doing the same to you. Sometimes you need to charge the archers, sometimes you need to retreat to protect the wizard, sometimes you need to get to a choke point before the enemy, and sometimes you just need to get the hell out of dodge. Mobility is always useful.
Combat Maneuvers - This is more of a personal note, but in my experience being Grappled (and to a lesser extent Tripped/Disarmed) can really ruin your day. If you're a low AC character chances are you're a low CMD character (or at least not a hogh CMD character). I fought some enemies with 4 natural attacks and thr Grab ability on the weekend and it was rough. Work out which Combat Maneuvers will shut you down (it's probably grapple) and then make a plan to deal with it. There are items, feats, class abilities and spells that can make this trivial ... but only if you have them.
And finally ...
Teamwork - If you have friends who can cast Shield Other or whatever then your HP isn't the be-all/end-all of the fight, you can spread that damage around and keep the fight going till everyone drops. If everyone's at 1hp then the party's still fighting at full capacity, so spread it out where you can.
This post got way too long so I'll end it there. I think I repeated some things I said earlier, but hopefully it's still helpful.
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This continues to make the argument for Earth/Water kinetic knight.
Hit points-only d8's but con based class.
Miss chance- Water defense talent has a utility that gives 20%
Dr-Earth defense talent gives you invulnerable rager dr for adamantine
Battlefield control- You can eventually become huge with a reach weapon
Resistances-Water element qualifies you for cold and fire resist utilities that are going to be around 10 each most of the time
Mobility- Unfortunately only swim and climb...but 30' reach should help
Battlefield control/Combat maneuvers-Realistically being huge with 30' reach demands trip tanking. AND bowling infusion lets you do that on a hit, with your con mod replacing strength. Without any feats you're probably looking at 3/4 bab plus 7-11 for the CMB
Hit hard-composite kinetic blasts are more damage than your standard fireball and you get iteratives. should average out to ~40 damage a hit around level 10
Saves- You're fort/reflex good with a class that focuses on dex and con already, in addition you get access to the samurai's resolve ability, letting you roll twice and keep the higher on fort and will saves, as well as shake off a number of debuffs.
Crit negation- A natural source with elemental overflow.
This continues to make the argument for Earth/Water kinetic knight.
Looks pretty good to me =)
You've got everything but in-combat healing and mobility covered (and I'd probably at least take Iron Will for your saves).
How's the CMD do you think? Being Huge would certainly help, but do you think it'll work well without much investment or is that something you'd want to think about (You don't necessarily need to have a high CMD, you just need a way of dealing with combat maneuvers)?
Other than that this has almost everything built into the class. That's better than a Paladin even, and Paladins make amazing no-armour tanks (they do it purely with redonkulous self-healing and saves, the rest would have to be bought).
This continues to make the argument for Earth/Water kinetic knight.Looks pretty good to me =)
You've got everything but in-combat healing and mobility covered (and I'd probably at least take Iron Will for your saves).
How's the CMD do you think? Being Huge would certainly help, but do you think it'll work well without much investment or is that something you'd want to think about (You don't necessarily need to have a high CMD, you just need a way of dealing with combat maneuvers)?
Other than that this has almost everything built into the class. That's better than a Paladin even, and Paladins make amazing no-armour tanks (they do it purely with redonkulous self-healing and saves, the rest would have to be bought).
Well your con should honestly exceed most martials mainstat and rival the ones with a rage power. the bonus to hit from elemental overflow basically gives you full BAB if you manage your burn correctly minus the iteratives. So its about as good as an equal level raging barbarian on weapon based combat maneuvers without any feat investment at all.
I'd be a dwarf just to stack the automatic +3 to will saves out of the gate. Also lets you take steel soul rather than iron will. Keeps your heavy armor from slowing you down any further.
at level 11 with bowling infusion and infusion specializaiton + gather power and internal buffer you can "nova" for free once to make an attack against all enemies within 20' of you for 12d6+18 at +19-20 to hit and roughly the same on the CMB check. It costs 2 burn each time you do it in the future.
THAT SAID. Kinetic knight also already counts as having combat expertise, and uses con instead of int to qualify for combat expertise feats. So its a 2 feat investment to add +4 to that CMB check and get a free attack of opportunity for another 12d6+18 on anyone who you manage to knock down.
Come to that kinetic healer is a water talent. Standard action to use but it should heal a decent amount.
Familiar Melding spell with the improved familiar Nycar? Regeneration + Ferocity. So basically you can't die (from hit point damage) unless its cold iron.
If Familiar Melding allows the usage of your feats (not explicitly) also take Ferocious Action to prevent being staggered, and Flagellant to prevent being shut down by non-lethal damage.
but you're a tiny dragon with no real attack threat.
Eh, i don't think they're comparable. Fox shape fighters and songbird of doom are generally the very high AC build OP is trying to avoid. Beyond that Familiar melding is a 5th level spell and none of the classes with access to it are particularly suited for the feat chain that those builds lean on.
Also they're really more amped up dex dps builds than tanks.
But how does the tiny thing in a single enemy's space actually "tank" is what i'm getting at. They're looking for something thats good for attracting attacks, and those builds are, but they only inconvenience a single opponent at a time. Good for solitary BBEG, bad for encounters with multiple pipehitters you dont want near the squishies.
Survivable is one thing, being a tank is another, much tougher task in pathfinder.
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Hit point sponge isn't really the point, though it is the most obvious choice. Really just the base ubarb would do what I want well. I just like making weird combinations. I find it's one of the more entertaining aspects of pathfinder character creation.
To each their own, but tiny character builds are a big hell no for me. They are way to much exploiting the flaws in the system and making something that makes absolutely no sense.
Though talking about that makes me wonder how far you could go the other way. What options are there to make yourself really really big?