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Fair enough, i misremembered from Your constant posts asking for Eidolons to be on par with the Martials and the Summoner made useless to “balance” things.
World of Warcraft is a bad comparison, and the examples you give are bad.
This isn’t directly comparing classes, the Eidolon is the pet, comparable to the Warlock’s demons or Hunter’s beasts or Unholy Deathknight’s ghoul.
WoW is a horrible balancing mechanic (since not even they succeed there), because PVP factors in to those balances. That’s not a thing Pathfinder is built for.
Nice ad hominem, I don’t hate Synthesist or Summoner, I just don’t want it to go back to the APG state like you crave. I want something fun and moderately balanced.
A single feat making a caster equal to a martial is not balanced.
A class path with feats supporting that path would be a completely different story.
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And yet a lot of your and others posts keep snaking back to a facsimile of it.
And you mentioned class path briefly, but mostly this argument has been concerning buffing Sythesist since the Summoner "isn't there" as of now, as you put, despite that they're still spellcasters and Synthesizing is an option rather than a constant.
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It's really hard to evaluate this option because I feel like the zeitgeist of 3.x/PF1 is still coloring our discussions. It really, really sucked to be "weak" in 3.x/PF1. It often meant knowing at the end of a night of roleplaying that you barely contributed to the success of a party. And I just don't see that happening to even the weakest builds we have right now in PF2e.
My fear was that the Synthesist would lag behind the other martials to such a significant degree that they wouldn't get enough options to be considered a "viable build". After GMing for Alex last week: this is just not the case. He downed several enemies practically by himself and contributed greatly to the combat. Being he's a caster, his utility will naturally improve as he gets access to higher level spells (and higher level scrolls/wands).
I do think it is a shame a synthesized eidolan can't benefit from feats the summoner picks up as a multi-class character, but I also see why...
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Yeah, if I was playing a fighter or barbarian or any of the other martials, and the dude over there playing the class that can also cast and a bunch of other neat utility things suddenly is on par or better than me, I'd feel really s@~!ty and just ask why isn't the whole party just playing Synthesist Summoners.
Differences are what makes classes appealing, and sometimes those differences mean that you are not as good at fighting as the fighter. That's fine - every class makes concessions.
I get it, Summoner is some people's favorite class. But this is a new edition, and things are going to change and that means you will lose some stuff from 1E. You just have to accept that and learn to work with what we've got and have fun with that.
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How many times must I repeat myself that synthesis removes casting?
Yeah, you can manifest your Eidolon not fused and then you have casting. Point still stands. You have that inherent choice baked into the class options, and you are giving things up for that choice - the ability to be as good at fighting as the fighter, for example.
And I'm not considering any hypothetically fan-suggested things that aren't in the playtest.
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How many times must I repeat myself that synthesis removes casting?Yeah, you can stop using the feat and then you have casting. Point still stands.
It adds an extra round to any casting attempt because of the 3 action cost for the feat so it's mostly for out of combat use. It's also 4 slots so it's not much casting. So I can see these as major drawbacks.
Now as to what balance point there should be in combat abilities vs martials, I'm not going to get into that: just pointing out casting isn't that big a thing for them especially if you look at nifty things marital classes get: a barbarian is murdering a lot of things by the time a synthesis used 2 rounds to cast a spell.
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How is the Synthesist having more support broken? Because as it stands it sounds like people want to nerf the class into oblivion for the sole sake of nerfing it.
Nerfing involves reducing or taking something away. Rejecting certain suggestions because we don’t want the APG Summoner back is not nerfing.
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The APG summoner is literally impossible to come back.Then stop trying to make it come back bit by bit.
You want the summoner to be so nerfed no one will ever play it so its like Paizo never made the summoner in the first place.
That's a very odd projection there. I don't hate the Summoner just because I disagree with you, you're not the sole adjudicator on what makes a good Summoner.
I haven't called for it to be nerfed. I want it to be buffed. I want it to be fun.
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You are really overvaluing their four slots.And you’re ignoring they exist.Four slots are practically nothing and they can't be used in combat if you're a synthesis or you will lose a ton of DPR meaning that those slots are even of LESS value on the Synthesis. You do know the concept of value, right?
I play MTG. Each card has specific value. How much bang for your buck can you get? Wasting turns lowers your DPR by a lot. Buffing yourself and then changing lowers your DPR. Essentially the four casting if you did it the way you are saying we should would further nerf him and lower his DPR. The four casting is "trap option" for the synthesis in combat.
The spells aren't only for combat, and they don't go away forever just because you took the Synthesist Feat. The options remain, as much as you'd like to ignore them.
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The APG summoner is literally impossible to come back.Then stop trying to make it come back bit by bit.You want the summoner to be so nerfed no one will ever play it so its like Paizo never made the summoner in the first place.That's a very odd projection there. I don't hate the Summoner just because I disagree with you, you're not the sole adjudicator on what makes a good Summoner.
I haven't called for it to be nerfed. I want it to be buffed. I want it to be fun.
Rofl
Asking for more customization isn't asking for pounce and 8 natural attacks all in one turn. Stop being dishonest. Its really, really annoying.
Again with the projecting. I haven’t said anything about pounce or natural attacks.
You keep pushing for variants of build-a-bear-pick-a-list/point. Those are inherently broken.
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No. They. Are. Not. Not any more inherently broken than pick a feat or pick a heritage or pick two familiar traits.The APG summoner is literally impossible to come back.Then stop trying to make it come back bit by bit.You want the summoner to be so nerfed no one will ever play it so its like Paizo never made the summoner in the first place.That's a very odd projection there. I don't hate the Summoner just because I disagree with you, you're not the sole adjudicator on what makes a good Summoner.
I haven't called for it to be nerfed. I want it to be buffed. I want it to be fun.
Rofl
Asking for more customization isn't asking for pounce and 8 natural attacks all in one turn. Stop being dishonest. Its really, really annoying.
Again with the projecting. I haven’t said anything about pounce or natural attacks.
You keep pushing for variants of build-a-bear-pick-a-list/point. Those are inherently broken.
They are, this has been proven multiple times over the lifetime of P1.
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I find it almost humorous how "build-a-bear" is innately broken but "build-a-character" isn't.
With a character you can pick your own class, ancestry, ancestry feat, heritage, stats, feat for martials. With an Eidolon, doing something similar when the Eidolon is 90% your character is so totally broken according to you.
So its balanced for other characters. Just not the Eidolon. If I'm, as the summoner, are regulated to boosting the Eidolon, then to claim the summoner is anything but a turret only used for buffs is disingenuous.
Asking for the Eidolon to have as much customization as any other character isnt asking for much nor is it going to break the game.
We have access to the character builder (which is completely different from pick-a-point).
We do not have access nor are able to Playtest your hypothetical build-a-bear-pick-a-point/list that totally isn’t broken based only on your way so and want for it to exist.
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Yes. It does matter how much you tune it. Lol.
Take a feat like power attack for example. Let's say its worth 2 points. Two other abilities equal to half the power each equal 1 point.
You have 2 points total. You can either take power attack equiv OR two thats equal to half the power.
Again. Tuning.
Yeah that worked out soooooo well in the Advanced Race Guide when they did exactly that.
Narrator voice: It did not.
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What part of the advanced race guide did that lol.The Race Builder section, they went and pointified every racial ability, it was broken as f+#!.
We want more customization for our Eidolon where two Eidolons aren't just carbon copies of eachother. You want cookie cutter with no options or customization and that every Eidolon is the same. We will never agree.
Or you could stop assuming what I want just because I don’t want APG Summoner back.
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I do think it is a shame a synthesized eidolan can't benefit from feats the summoner picks up as a multi-class character, but I also see why...
In fairness, there was nothing I did in during a single combat in that game while synthesized that I couldn't do while unsynthesized. Out of combat, sure; couldn't cast my healing spells for the party. But in combat, while I was synthesized. Nah, my eidolon could have done all that without me. My summoner would have just had to be cool with sitting at the front door to the room rather than getting to be the Green Power Ranger.
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Rysky its is a matter of tuning. point buy systems are not inherently broken. Its how the devs tune them that makes them broken, why do you keep trying to perpetuate that lie that those types of systems are broken.
Are familiar broken? Because they literally use a point system with each ability costing 1 point.
I think Rysky made it pretty clear that the reason they don't prefer a point system for the eidolon is that the point system was definitely busted for the APG Summoner and arguably busted for the Unchained Summoner.
An interesting point about familiars is that most of the abilities you're purchasing are flavor heavy or of limited power to the familiar in question. There are some with some oomph to them, but overall you're not really talking about customization for combat effectiveness. You're talking minor perks for the eidolon itself.
Do you think the eidolons would be better if they had a small list of abilities they could purchase and 1-2 points, as well as summoner feats that added points to that pool? What type of powers do you think would be appropriate for the eidolon to choose from?
One of the immediate differences and concerns that I see is that familiars have their own independent section free from the druid / wizard / witch class because so many characters can take familiars. If only the summoner can have eidolons, does it make sense to put that much energy into a system that only the summoner benefits from? Or does it make more sense to put the eidolon in its own section, like animal companions and familiars, with the expectation that somewhere down the line other classes will be able to gain the eidolon?
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I'm not the one lying, every point buy Paizo has used or made has been abused or broken.
Stat point buy? Broken.
Race Builder? Broken.
ARG Evolution Points? Broken.
Unchained Evolution Points? Less broken, still broken.
Tuning doesn't mean anything if the system can't support it, you need the system to be build from the ground up to incorporate point buys for it to work.
Familiars do not use point buy, y'all can keep claiming that till all y'all blue in the face but it won't make you any more right.
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Race Builder? Broken.
This one is interesting, because I think it's worth commenting that one of the major issues with the Race Builder specifically was that rather than being designed to balance degrees of power, it was very clearly designed to try and create the illusion that all the core races were perfectly balanced between one another when they weren't. There's no other reason for the system to charge what it charges for the dwarf greed racial trait, after all. :P
Tuning doesn't mean anything if the system can't support it, you need the system to be build from the ground up to incorporate point buys for it to work.
I agree with this, and I think many of the people in this thread agree with it too. Which is why they seem to be advocating for adding a point-buy system to the eidolon now, while the class is in beta.
Personally, I don't think it's impossible but I also think that any potential abilities you buy with the system can't be on the power level of what was in PF1. Any abilities you buy should be small things like, "I gain low-light vision" and not "I gain the rake special attack."
Familiars do not use point buy, y'all can keep claiming that till all y'all blue in the face but it won't make you any more right.
I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, because while I've never played a PF2 character with a familiar, I would have classified its options menu as a point buy system too with what I remember about it.
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Race Builder? Broken.This one is interesting, because I think it's worth commenting that one of the major issues with the Race Builder specifically was that rather than being designed to balance degrees of power, it was very clearly designed to try and create the illusion that all the core races were perfectly balanced between one another when they weren't. There's no other reason for the system to charge what it charges for the dwarf greed racial trait, after all. :P
I was side eying Dwarf while writing this lol
But yeah it highlights the main issue with this approach, applying a point buy system on an existing system to silly results.
Tuning doesn't mean anything if the system can't support it, you need the system to be build from the ground up to incorporate point buys for it to work.I agree with this, and I think many of the people in this thread agree with it too. Which is why they seem to be advocating for adding a point-buy system to the eidolon now, while the class is in beta.
Personally, I don't think it's impossible but I also think that any potential abilities you buy with the system can't be on the power level of what was in PF1. Any abilities you buy should be small things like, "I gain low-light vision" and not "I gain the rake special attack."
But that would still leave the problem and potential since the P2 system itself is not built to accommodate this new system that, and outside context villian more or less.
Familiars do not use point buy, y'all can keep claiming that till all y'all blue in the face but it won't make you any more right.I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, because while I've never played a PF2 character with a familiar, I would have classified its options menu as a point buy system too with what I remember about it.
I don't consider it PB because there's no points or buying or determining, you pick two from the list, that's it.
They're not different prices that you can "haggle" and maneuver the system in how you spend them.
To me, if you consider them point buy then you may as well consider the feat system in P2 point buy as well (pick x from the offered list), and it's not.
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The difference between the Familiar options menu and a pool of evolution points, is that the Familiar master can change his points every day at no cost. Mechanically they have effectively the same effect.Familiars do not use point buy, y'all can keep claiming that till all y'all blue in the face but it won't make you any more right.I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, because while I've never played a PF2 character with a familiar, I would have classified its options menu as a point buy system too with what I remember about it.
Except not?
There's no cost, no points buying or haggling. It's pick two from a list.
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Rysky if its just flavor for Familiars its just flavor for eidolon. There is no reason to lock those abilities behind a class feat when mechanically they are about the same level as a general feat. If even that.They aren't just flavor. And those options cost PCs Ancestry or Heritage feats usually.
The Familiar feat that gives more evolutions gives your 2 more points, that lets you pick more of those abilities how ever you wish. There is no reason that an Eidolon could not have the same.You don't get two more "points" you get two more abilities, they abilties all "cost" the same, there's no 2 point abilities or 3 point abilities or 4 point abilities.
And the whole "power level" doesn't matter because Familiars are balanced as being worth a level 1 feat.Not a good argument, Familiars aren't damage dealers and tanks for other characters. You have to take that into account as well.
Meanwhile, Eidolons are balanced around costing most of your spells. So of course they would have more power, that doesn't mean they should be any less flexible on what the Player can pick and when. You are advocating for arbitrary limits for no reason other that "PF1 version was broken" while seeing PF2 implement a version that 100% works and is in no way broken.
There's other ways to customize something than point buy, this point-buy or bust attitude is helping your stance in the slightest.
And again, they don't have a point buy system, Familiars and only Familiars can pick abilities from a list, just like Classes can pick Feats.
Familiars. They're not damage dealers or tanks or otherwise majorly contributing to a fight, you put that system on Ancestries or pets and you're getting completely different outcomes.
To go on and on about tuning and balance and then say that just because it's okay on Familiars that it'd be okay for combatants to have it no issue shows how little you actually know about balance.
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The difference between the Familiar options menu and a pool of evolution points, is that the Familiar master can change his points every day at no cost. Mechanically they have effectively the same effect.Familiars do not use point buy, y'all can keep claiming that till all y'all blue in the face but it won't make you any more right.I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, because while I've never played a PF2 character with a familiar, I would have classified its options menu as a point buy system too with what I remember about it.Except not?
There's no cost, no points buying or haggling. It's pick two from a list.
"Pick two from a list" and "here are three coins spend them as you want" are mechanically the same. There is no "haggling".
Pick two from the list == Here are two coins every thing costs 1.
By that logic the feat system is point buy.
And it's not.
Options to pick from does not automatically equal point buy, everything is not secretly point buy.