Definitely nothing 1st party. Can't guarantee nothing 3rd party.
Solarion armor is basically intended to be worm overtop of light armor, giving you heavy armor stats effectively.
What would armor crystals even do?
I would agree if your broader assessment point is that the solar armor option is probably the weakest option available to solarions, but it has nothing to do with a lack of "crystals" or other add ons to the solar armor.
It's because solar weapons/solar flare/solar shield are all basically a complete replacement for something else. The solar weapon means you're not buying a melee weapon, and maybe just keeping a small arm you find as a back up weapon. Solar flare likely means you don't even bother with any sort of melee weapon and just pew pew with your magic sun gun. Solar shield is a defensive option that can dish out some melee damage (if you pick up improved unarmed strike) and also increase your AC, by almost as much as the armor would.
Each of those allows you to forgo purchasing something.
The solar armor...still requires you to buy light armor. You can't run around with only the solar armor.
The crystals for the weapons are to keep damage on track with other weapons, but if you can accept lower damage you can save a lot of WBL by spending nothing on your offense.
Solar armor would have been better implemented if it effectively gave you the full protection of light armor (including environmental) and then had crystals as you suggest, which would further increase the AC to heavy armor levels.
The solar weapon crystals are roughly the same cost as a weapon of the same level, but again you can save a lot of money by not buying them and while your damage suffers you are still relevant.
They should have done the same with armor where you could spend nothing on light armor, and upgrade to heavy armor level for the same cost in the form of a crystal. Obviously you wouldn't be allowed to stack it with any other armor.
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I know what the armor was for and how, yet again, starfinder designed something poorly. I was simply asking if either through offical(not likely), 3rd party, or homebrew(even less likely since starfinder is full of rules mongers) anything had been made. Because since paizo didnt make them, there is absolutely no reason to take the armor ability, the weapon is all that matters.
Prior to the solar flare option it was a valid, if not optimal, way to play by picking up longarms and using solar armor.
Since the solar flare exists though, it enables the ranged option the core solarion was lacking and I agree there is now no reason to play with the solar armor option.
Because since paizo didnt make them, there is absolutely no reason to take the armor ability, the weapon is all that matters.
I want to add something else here because I've been thinking about it.
The lack of published solar armor crystals isn't an serious problem in my opinion. The problem is that the solar armor doesn't replace purchasing armor the way the solar weapon/flare/shield options do. Even though those options aren't as strong without spending the same amount of money on a weapon crystal, they will keep you relevant for 0 cost. The solar armor doesn't do that.
I agree with you that there's no good reason to use solar armor, but I disagree with you assessment of why.
And even if someone did publish solar armor crystals I have no idea what the would do or how you would balance the cost.
You already have armor fusions which can be applied to the light armor you're wearing, which would be most of the space that armor crystals would theoretically have. You could maybe further enhance the AC bonus to make sure it's as good as (or maybe even slightly better) than heavy armor. But if that costs as much as heavy armor then there was no point in doing so. You might as well just played a weapon solarion and bought heavy armor (and the proficiency feat).
A small counter to the read of solar armor being weak. It is the most effective way of ending up with DR and resistance to all energy types as far as I know.
A graviton focused armor solarion can pick up DR with a revelation, resistance to sonic/electric (only one active at a time) with a revelation, and automatically gets fire/cold (only one active at a time). The Enhanced Resistance feat works best with full BAB and can be used to net resistance to acid. This all comes online by level five. Your DR and acid/sonic/electric resistance caps at 10. The fire/cold resistance has the potential to cap at 25 if you pick up a Celestial Stole.
You can make a pretty tanky solar armor solarian which, I feel, was the goal.
That said, I would not turn down any more toys for solar armor as I've got what some would consider a misguided love for it (I was also a big fan of rogues and fighters in PF1e, though I won't try to argue against them being weak relative to a lot of other options). I, personally, would like to see an option for specializing in one side of the photon/graviton balance that cuts off one side in exchange for expanding the capabilities of your manifestation of choice.
To counter, I would say you can get damage reduction without the solar armor it just requires a graviton attunement to not waste actions every round. And getting the energy resistances is done quite easily by money.
Actually using your revelations to get energy resistance is actually an argument for bad investment in my opinion, since those are more limited than money.
You can also grab a solar shield, which can imitate the fire/cold resistance.
Out of curiosity, how is this use of class features to forgo buying certain pieces of equipment any different from the previous statement about the other options?
For someone committed to building a tank, it seems perfectly valid to forgo the increased expense of acquiring and upgrading a mess of augmentations and armor upgrades. That money can go back to getting better armor or weapon or even picking up a shield for higher AC. Alternately, it opens up those equipment slots for other interesting options.
If the difference is how limited your number of revelations is, then by that logic, using a manifestation to forgo buying weapons or a shield is an even worse investment.
I guess my counter is:
1) If you want to play a tank, you should play a Vanguard
2) The difference about class features and saving money on equipment is basically one of opportunity cost.
While you only get 1 solar manifestation, all of them except the armor can save you money on their own. The solar armor is still weak enough that it can't replace armor completely on its own.
Sure you can then augment it to have some respectable tankiness, but now you're spending even more limited class resources (solar revelations) to double down on the poor (in my opinion) choice of taking solar armor. When you could spend those solar revelations on other things.
I'm not saying that if your specific goal is to make a tanky solarion that this doesn't work.
What I'm suggesting is that you're taking what is the worst options (again, IMO) and making the best out of it that you can.
And personally I also place very low value on tankiness since the enemy has to attack you for it to be relevant. If you're not presenting enough of a threat, enemies may ignore you in favor of killing your friends first.
Vanguard strikes me as a case of being 'six of one but half a dozen of the other' in terms of tankiness. Mitigate is overall more effective but requires constantly earning and spending EP for it to function and when it does function it shuts off one of your more reliable methods of gaining EP. You end up only having it up half the time under sustained assault. Vanguard seems like more of a situational tank than sustained tank.
Tanking in Starfinder is not as passive since all you really need to be a threat is an appropriately leveled weapon. You'll do significant damage with a fancy gun or beat stick. Solar armor is already using light armor, take Fleet and pick up an operative advanced melee weapon. You won't be as quick as a blitz soldier but you will be hard to ignore.
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I for one would love armor crystals. These crystals could modify resistances, add resistances, increase speed or acrobatics checks and even stealth checks. What about a crystal that hides the fact that you are a solarian? Or a crystal that gives you a bonus to saves against spells or other solarian or vanguard abilities? What about a crystal that fasions your armor? I am just coming up with these on the fly, and I know I am not along in wanting these. I know some of this may overlap with armor mods, items or even abilities. But at the same time giving the option opens up those spots for other dynamic choices.
Vanguard strikes me as a case of being 'six of one but half a dozen of the other' in terms of tankiness. Mitigate is overall more effective but requires constantly earning and spending EP for it to function and when it does function it shuts off one of your more reliable methods of gaining EP. You end up only having it up half the time under sustained assault. Vanguard seems like more of a situational tank than sustained tank.
Tanking in Starfinder is not as passive since all you really need to be a threat is an appropriately leveled weapon. You'll do significant damage with a fancy gun or beat stick. Solar armor is already using light armor, take Fleet and pick up an operative advanced melee weapon. You won't be as quick as a blitz soldier but you will be hard to ignore.
I disagree that all you need is a "fancy gun or beat stick". What makes the soldier and solarion excel at combat are their class features. Getting to make additional attacks and the general support provided to the class.
Thankfully, if you play an armor solarion you could still pick up an advanced melee weapon and remain mostly relevant as Flashing Strikes still works as does Solarion's Onslaught. And you could even get things like Plasma sheath...except you're spending all your Revelations on being tanky.
And I get that it's a choice. But my personal opinion is that your offense (as a soldier or solarion) isn't up to it's full potential the party suffers. It's good to be have some tankiness, but not at an extreme expense to utility and offense (which are granted by revelations). Remember that there is no mechanic to force the enemy to attack you, so even if you're tanky the enemy still might decide to kill your friends, even if you are more threatening. Not because you're not doing the most damage, but because they can't hurt effectively enough. So they'll kill your friends instead and try to out last (as an enemy group).
That's the same strategy players use when facing an enemy that they have trouble dealing damage to, kill everything else and then work together to take down the tough guy.
Tanking as a strategy has always been flawed to me because you can't force the enemy to focus on you.
Edit: Also operative melee weapons are a bad idea for Solarions (even advanced melee weapons with the operative quality) because you still only get 1/2 level in weapon specialization as opposed to full level. That part of the quality of operative weapons, though the rule itself is hidden in the text of the weapon specialization feat.
Well if you only have the core rulebook and are playing Society you can legally only the options from the sources you own.
So only having the core rulebook and already playing a soldier with a lot of toys why not Solar Armor?
Well if you only have the core rulebook and are playing Society you can legally only the options from the sources you own.
So only having the core rulebook and already playing a soldier with a lot of toys why not Solar Armor?
The typical answer is that spending a feat on heavy armor and taking solar weapon tends to be better. It's somewhat easier on the wallet, and thermal capacitors can pretty much make up for the armor's resistance bonuses.
Well if you only have the core rulebook and are playing Society you can legally only the options from the sources you own.
So only having the core rulebook and already playing a soldier with a lot of toys why not Solar Armor?
As garretmander said, generally speaking playing a solar weapon solarion and buying up to heavy armor (feat) is going to get you the same/better AC as solar armor. (Really go look, heavy armor is typically 2/3 points higher on EAC /KAC than light armor, making it equal to solar armor + light armor and is roughly the same price).
Both solar weapon and solar armor can get access to the DR revelation.
The solar armor can get either fire/cold resistance (at a single time, but access to both) while the thermal capacitor can give both at the same time.
Unless you want to go solar armor for the sake of going solar armor, or you're wanting to specifically make a ranged solarion (and only have core rule book so no solar flare) I can't find a good reason to use solar armor.
To me the question isn't "Why not solar armor?" the question is "Why use solar armor?". And the answer is "I like a challenge" or "I only have the CRB and want to make a ranged solarion".
To throw this in, you could have extra manifestation. It was in the COM. I dont know if they errated this but 1st level mystic with solar connection, then 9 levels of solar flare solarian with the extra manifestation being solar armor. Once you are fully attuned you can have your solar weapon, solar flare and solar armor active. For me it gives the full green lantern experience.
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Armor, useful or not, is a very boring option. You don't actively do anything with it, make choices with it round to round, there's no little parts you can customize it with (like weapon crystals) and mechanically its a little weak (although enhanced resistance getting the nerf bat might change that last bit)
To throw this in, you could have extra manifestation. It was in the COM. I dont know if they errated this but 1st level mystic with solar connection, then 9 levels of solar flare solarian with the extra manifestation being solar armor. Once you are fully attuned you can have your solar weapon, solar flare and solar armor active. For me it gives the full green lantern experience.
I'm not a huge fan of building around the idea of having multiple manifestations, since:
1) You need to be fully attuned. This requires at least 3 rounds of combat, possibly 4 if you don't have balanced revelations (which is pretty common).
2) This will bar you from using Zenith revelations if you actually want to keep both manifestations out.
3) Personal experience with Starfinder has been fights lasting 3-4 rounds. Getting your second manifestation out for the last round of combat is disappointing.
Not that isn't to say getting a second manifestation isn't worth it. I like the versatility. I'm working on a solar flare solarion which will get the solar shield option to have a melee/defense option available for some situations and may occasionally get to use both. But I'm also planning to get heavy & power armor, especially since Enhanced Resistance got nerfed.
To throw this in, you could have extra manifestation. It was in the COM. I dont know if they errated this but 1st level mystic with solar connection, then 9 levels of solar flare solarian with the extra manifestation being solar armor. Once you are fully attuned you can have your solar weapon, solar flare and solar armor active. For me it gives the full green lantern experience.I'm not a huge fan of building around the idea of having multiple manifestations, since:
1) You need to be fully attuned. This requires at least 3 rounds of combat, possibly 4 if you don't have balanced revelations (which is pretty common).
2) This will bar you from using Zenith revelations if you actually want to keep both manifestations out.
3) Personal experience with Starfinder has been fights lasting 3-4 rounds. Getting your second manifestation out for the last round of combat is disappointing.Not that isn't to say getting a second manifestation isn't worth it. I like the versatility. I'm working on a solar flare solarion which will get the solar shield option to have a melee/defense option available for some situations and may occasionally get to use both. But I'm also planning to get heavy & power armor, especially since Enhanced Resistance got nerfed.
I entirely see your point and min/maxing I agree. But for me it is more flavor and almost cinematic through the campaign.
Would you change your tune if armor crystals were introduced? If they offered armor crystals that enhanced roll play or combat effectiveness in ways completely unique to solarians?
I entirely see your point and min/maxing I agree. But for me it is more flavor and almost cinematic through the campaign.
Would you change your tune if armor crystals were introduced? If they offered armor crystals that enhanced roll play or combat effectiveness in ways completely unique to solarians?
Very possibly. It would really depend on what the options entailed, but if they offered some sort of solar crystals for armor that weren't simply replications of armor fusions but something unique and interesting (because let's remember you still need light armor to wear under your solar armor so you can still use fusions).
If solar armor got a crystal ability that would work like an Armor Storm Soldiers' hammer fist ability that could be cool.
Stuff like that could make the armor more flexible and interesting.
But currently, with things as they are I just don't see much value in suggesting the solar armor in terms of competitive power to the other options.
The thing is a lot of the use for armor is for the armor upgrade slots. So if you need to pay for the upgrade slots on light armor anyway, what are you getting out of being in light armor? Heavy armor has slots and just slows you down some. Movement enhancers are relatively cheap.
The thing is a lot of the use for armor is for the armor upgrade slots. So if you need to pay for the upgrade slots on light armor anyway, what are you getting out of being in light armor? Heavy armor has slots and just slows you down some. Movement enhancers are relatively cheap.
I'm not sure I fully follow your train of thought BNW.
Unless you meant in regard to my hammer fist comment specifically, which I guess I should have been more detailed with my idea which is that you could have a solar crystal which would grant you an attack that function as a battlefist with an item level of your level or lower, but not requiring heavy armor or power armor, just requiring you to be using your solar armor.
The thing is a lot of the use for armor is for the armor upgrade slots. So if you need to pay for the upgrade slots on light armor anyway, what are you getting out of being in light armor? Heavy armor has slots and just slows you down some. Movement enhancers are relatively cheap.I'm not sure I fully follow your train of thought BNW.
Unless you meant in regard to my hammer fist comment specifically, which I guess I should have been more detailed with my idea which is that you could have a solar crystal which would grant you an attack that function as a battlefist with an item level of your level or lower, but not requiring heavy armor or power armor, just requiring you to be using your solar armor.
No, its just a general "why be an armor solarion when you can just be a heavy armor solarion"
A series of items that let you do neat things with solar armor would be just the thing to make it more attractive as an option.
The question I keep getting stuck on is what should these items do?
The free battleglove is a thing, not great but it's something.
Maybe armor crystals that do things similar to armor upgrades, allowing you to have all the upgrades you could want - could be useful, could be OP, I'm not sure.
Maybe crystals that give you reactive damage like electrostatic field and the pre-existing revelation. You can be the master of walking into a pack of wild animals and them killing themselves trying to melee you.
Maybe a few 1/day spell crystals that you can use despite not being a spellcaster.
But then you can't fit all these things on a table, and you'll need several pages to detail all of this instead of just a quick 'here's four more weapon crystals in a table'.
I was thinking a crystal that lets you treat any atmosphere like "normal". You can't swim in water but you can walk and run on the ground at normal speeds. No super light or heavy planets for you!
I also have a hard time imagining exactly what kind of options solar armor crystals could provide, but I think they need to do something.
But I also think Solar Armor should have come with the Stellar Equilibrium revelation as something it simply did (no revelation required) and provided an armor bonus equal to comparative light armor. With a crystal that would bump it up to heavy armor levels (for the same approximate cost as heavy armo). This sort of set up would have mirrored how solar weapons work, which provide damage on their own that is less than an advanced melee weapon (but serviceable) and can be upgraded to advanced melee weapon levels with a crystal (which costs as much as an on level weapon).
But that ship sailed.
Now we have to think about what could be added. And we need to remember that only a single solar crystal could be used.
So maybe there's a level 1 version that does something like hammer fist. But a higher level version improves what it can do. Maybe adding in free improved unarmed strike (the levels at which unarmed strike vs battleglove do more damage vary) and maybe even providing a speed bonus could be things that could enable different styles of play.
Play an armor solarion that buys a gun and has their solar armor with a built in backup melee weapon. Maybe let them use dex to attack rolls without reducing their weapon specialization damage bonus to half.
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Armor crystals could just give you a whole suit of armor from your mote, complete with environmental protections, plus some other bonuses roughly equivalent to the upgrade slots on a regular suit of armor. Maybe a saving throw bonus, too, to give it something unique.
If weapon crystals are to let you keep up with damage, then armor crystals could let you keep up with AC.