Versatile Heritage Questions (Lineage and Languages)

[jowawill]

I'm just curious here but what was the reasoning behind making lineages (ie Callow May, Lawbringer, Hellspawn, etc) feats that have to be taken rather than a mandatory choice the way heritages are? Is that going to be the setup for future versatile heritages (ie will I have to select Geniekin as a blanket heritage then take Ifrit or Sylph as feats)?

I'm also a little curious about languages associated with planar scions, specifically (at the moment) Aasimars and Tieflings. As it stands Angelkin is the only Lineage between them that gets a planar language, which is fine, but I only just noticed that the lore feats associated with either planar scions do not mention being able to learn Celestial, Abyssal or Infernal. Is that something that a player who chooses the Celestial or Fiendish Lore feats should assume comes as a part of the package or are they still languages that they can't immediately learn?

[Snes]

Considering how distinct all the different geniekin are, I presume that there will be different versatile heritages for each of them.

That said, I was rather disappointed by how they handled versatile heritages in the APG. When the book dropped, I was not looking forward to choosing between low light vision, low light vision, low light vision, low light vision, and low light vision, with all additional customization options gated behind an ancestry feat.

I would have preferred it if the versatile heritages gave your the option to take any lineage feat for that heritage as a bonus feat or take improved vision.

[Charon Onozuka]

Snes wrote:

I would have preferred it if the versatile heritages gave your the option to take any lineage feat for that heritage as a bonus feat or take improved vision.

So much yes. I'm currently looking at homebrewing options now that we have actual examples for versatile heritages - but every example giving vision upgrades makes things... difficult. Like one of my players requested making a half-giant heritage, but many giants only have low-light vision - so the vision upgrade doesn't really work with any non-human ancestry since they'd already have low-light vision and upgrading to a better vision than what you're imitating doesn't make sense. [Not to mention I hate how easy it is to have darkvision unless you're human, but I'll try to refrain from that rant.]

Plus, adding vision doesn't really make you feel like a member of most heritages. Maybe it helps for Duskwalker/Tiefling, but I've never understood why something like an Aasimar with a feat to get a glowing halo to shine light everywhere would be a race that relies on low-light/darkvision.

[Deadmanwalking]

Due to Versatile Heritages already being a Heritage, Lineage Feats being mandatory makes for very restrictive character creation choices. Also, one is not always appropriate. Many aasimar or tieflings do not have the inherent traits of a specific type of celestial or fiend, just being a 'generic' aasimar or tiefling.

In terms of languages, I think Heritages should generally give access to appropriate Uncommon languages, though not the languages themselves. I suspect the folks at Paizo feel that way too and it not being listed is an omission.

In terms of non-vision benefits for custom Versatile Heritages. We know that vision upgrading is worth an Ancestry Feat, so anything else worth about one Ancestry Feat should be a thing you can grant, if you like.

[HumbleGamer]

What I really don't like, and, can't understand at all, is why they decided to put so many choices only available by level 1.

Let's take a look at one of the most classic example, which is the human with tiefling heritage.

At lvl 1 the player is literally forced to choose between

- dark vision
- a lineage
- form of the fiend

Since they are all feats you can only choose during your character creation (lvl1).

So it's not possible to see a tiefling with a specific lineage but also dark vision, or some fiendish features.

But it's the same if you instead decide to to with fiendish features or even a lineage.

Ancestry feats are nice for what concerns progression, but there should be some rule to allow players to make characters with many lvl 1 feats ( probably removing the lvl 1 requirement could help, but I'd prefer something better).

[Rikaya Softclaw]

HumbleGamer wrote:

What I really don't like, and, can't understand at all, is why they decided to put so many choices only available by level 1.

Let's take a look at one of the most classic example, which is the human with tiefling heritage.

At lvl 1 the player is literally forced to choose between

- dark vision
- a lineage
- form of the fiend

Since they are all feats you can only choose during your character creation (lvl1).

So it's not possible to see a tiefling with a specific lineage but also dark vision, or some fiendish features.

But it's the same if you instead decide to to with fiendish features or even a lineage.

Ancestry feats are nice for what concerns progression, but there should be some rule to allow players to make characters with many lvl 1 feats ( probably removing the lvl 1 requirement could help, but I'd prefer something better).

I believe this is a case of "characters with all of those abilities at level one exist, but are outside the intended power level of the game so you cannot select them without GM permission" combined with "it makes negative sense to pick up such abilities after level 1; they should have been born with them".

So, similarly to playing a dragon, it's possible, but you need special permission due to it changing the expected power level.

[HumbleGamer]

Rikaya Softclaw wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

What I really don't like, and, can't understand at all, is why they decided to put so many choices only available by level 1.

Let's take a look at one of the most classic example, which is the human with tiefling heritage.

At lvl 1 the player is literally forced to choose between

- dark vision
- a lineage
- form of the fiend

Since they are all feats you can only choose during your character creation (lvl1).

So it's not possible to see a tiefling with a specific lineage but also dark vision, or some fiendish features.

But it's the same if you instead decide to to with fiendish features or even a lineage.

Ancestry feats are nice for what concerns progression, but there should be some rule to allow players to make characters with many lvl 1 feats ( probably removing the lvl 1 requirement could help, but I'd prefer something better).

I believe this is a case of "characters with all of those abilities at level one exist, but are outside the intended power level of the game so you cannot select them without GM permission" combined with "it makes negative sense to pick up such abilities after level 1; they should have been born with them".

So, similarly to playing a dragon, it's possible, but you need special permission due to it changing the expected power level.

I wouldn't compare it to something like playing a dragon.

Not to say that their benefits are far from being game breaking ( they are mostly flavour).

You could play a specific lineage even without feats, for example.

Finally, you would simply anticipate those ancestry feats ( so you will be renouncing to other high lvl ancestry feats, or eventually ancestral paragon). And you won't be able to retrain them.

Rules are simply not the best they could be, since characters feel just not right ( like a half orc which has to decide between tusks and darkvision. Terrible choice).

[RaptorBonz]

I have been really happy with the versatile heritages so far, but I also am in the camp of "if you want narrative stuff talk to me and we'll just write it in" so even if you don't take the X brand of tiefling feat because you want the form, well your form will function as that narratively you will have those characteristics, but you'll have to follow the mechanics for feat chains.

I also have considered a human heritage that is basically "sleeps with everything" which lets you choose an allowable VH and get a bonus lineage feat

I can see how some things feel fairly limiting with the way the lvl 1 locked feats work though, and everyone (not hooman) seems to have low-light vision, which is not something I've fully come to terms with yet!

[graystone]

HumbleGamer wrote:

What I really don't like, and, can't understand at all, is why they decided to put so many choices only available by level 1.

Yeah and there doesn't seem to be any rhythm or reason to what is and isn't 1st level. I understand lineage at 1st but some of the others...

form of the fiend? Why? You can literally grow hooves after 1st [Nimble Hooves] or learn to use your tail better [Skillful Tail]. And if it's because of a natural weapon, that doesn't make sense either: dhampir can learn Fangs at any level they want... Why prevent a tiefling from doing the same with their claws, bite, hooves or tail? In fact I'm not sure why they shouldn't be able to have more than 1 natural attack if they wish.

[lemeres]

Snes wrote:

That said, I was rather disappointed by how they handled versatile heritages in the APG. When the book dropped, I was not looking forward to choosing between low light vision, low light vision, low light vision, low light vision, and low light vision, with all additional customization options gated behind an ancestry feat.

I would have preferred it if the versatile heritages gave your the option to take any lineage feat for that heritage as a bonus feat or take improved vision.

You could play a 'very special' elf and get dark vision as an auto upgrade. But then, you can't grab the lineage feat, AND get the weapon training needed for the near obligatory dex based melee build OR the nicer cantrips for a caster build. At least at level 1.

I would have preferred to get tieflings and the like as their own ancestry. The fiendish influences seem like something that would be rather defining enough physically to make their own ancestry. Everything just feels like they got shoved down a level (ancestry to heritage, heritage to feat, feats to 'hah, wait until level 5') because they wanted to shove this into a different preexisting area.

I am not sure if there is a benefit with this method.I could see them avoiding a race if they wanted to avoid a complicated "see this other race for speed/size/etc." plug in mechanic. But this? It makes things convoluted, so it squanders that advantage.

[Elfteiroh]

It took this for people to realize they could do a Gnome or Elf Tiefling, even if it was specifically mentioned in PF1. So that’s one advantage. (And that way it doesn’t stop you from doing a very gnomish tiefling, as it being its own ancestry would.)

[Charon Onozuka]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

In terms of non-vision benefits for custom Versatile Heritages. We know that vision upgrading is worth an Ancestry Feat, so anything else worth about one Ancestry Feat should be a thing you can grant, if you like.

That's a good point. I'm almost wondering if a versatile heritage just giving "pick a 1st level ancestry feat from this heritage" as part of the heritage would be a good compromise to allow flexibility without being too much of a power increase (plus allow for possibility to take two level 1 only options).

---

Overall, I do really like versatile heritages. Being able to modify your default ancestry with another one allows for a large variety of concepts that just never worked well in PF1.

My biggest complaints are really that the initial versatile heritage on it's own doesn't vary a whole lot (vision upgrades), too many options are limited to level 1 (like lineages could just say you express features of your lineage and restrict you from having multiple), and I feel like the Half-X human heritages should be versatile heritages (with a half-human versatile as well).

[Deadmanwalking]

Charon Onozuka wrote:

That's a good point. I'm almost wondering if a versatile heritage just giving "pick a 1st level ancestry feat from this heritage" as part of the heritage would be a good compromise to allow flexibility without being too much of a power increase (plus allow for possibility to take two level 1 only options).

Choice is always more powerful than a lack of choice, so I think this is probably overpowered, but any effect equivalent to a single 1st level Ancestry Feat should be fine.