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@Iaxl
Wow just wow. First thanks for insulting my post by calling it nonsense.
It really shows who you are. You hate Starfinder we all get it.
I really do not understand why you are here.
I was not defending the scenario. I was pointing out how you can easily make sense of it.
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Spoiler Alert
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There is no police investigation against the company, the adventure specifically says they won't interfer, and the trap is fixed. And even if it would be as you describe the police still does not leave deadly traps in public areas.
Actually it does not say that. You can go file file a police report, get questioned and they say the will look into it when resources are available.
I did not say the police trapped the door. All I said was Eclipse Innovations was doing an internal investigation in cooperation with the police.
Here's an alert for you: Eclipse is lying!!!
Shooting up a office building, abandoned (not really though) or not attracts attention, yet no such things happen in the adventure. There is also no investigation for breaking and entering.
Did you read the setting for Cuvacara at all?
It is somewhat akin to a bright and shiny Gotham city.
Well armed corporate mercenaries are the norm in Cuvacara and the authorities don't get involved with them most of the time.
Graft and corruption are everywhere in this city.
If a small time operator like Scuttle has the police well greased, can you fathom how large corporations like Eclipse Innovations have the police in their pocket?
Here is how the average residence views this in my opinion.
Person 1: "I hear gunfire at Eclipse Innovations."
Person 2: "Probably mercenaries from Solar Flare Software trying to steal the code for The Penumbra Protocol."
Person 1: Do you have any friends or relatives that might being involved?
Person 2: Nope. Hey you want to go to Lee Ho Fooks to get some beef chow mein?
Person 1: Yep lets turn left here.
Just another day in Cuvacara.
Of course there is no investigation for breaking and entering at Eclipse Innovations. They don't want the police there.
If the PCs aren't clever here there will be witnesses seeing them break and enter and most likely someone will call the police who arrive in 4d4 minutes.
The enemies have their full gear so the adventure assumes that the PCs have their full gear too even while shopping for items.
Not in my game they don't. They will be close to full, but things like assault rifles and sniper rifles will not be openly carried. Never has in my games and never will be.
My players like this fact and have no problem using clever solutions to overcome a few missing pieces of gear.
Despite being involved in multiple shootings, at least one on a busy open street while shopping and possibly a bombing in the "generally safe city" the OCs are never detained (time critical adventure) or questioned (adventure tells you the police, described as vigilant against violent crime, is desinterested)
You clearly did not read the adventure.
1st ambush: mercenaries disguised as police, witness cleared from scene.
2nd ambush: ambush in The Shade section of city, where the buildings are described as having bullet holes and crime is rampant.
Bolded part: really??!! Reread page 23. Arrested, detained overnight, 2,000 credit fine per PC sure sounds like the police WILL get involved.
Evade police?? Now ever encounter in Cuvacara has a 30% chance of having 2 police officers involved.
If the PCs are dumb enough to attack the police then the full might of Cuvacara's police force WILL come down on them.
3rd Ambush: yep in a crowded area for sure. Really good chance of harming innocent NPCs.
With precedent set on page 23 that the police WILL get involved, as this takes place with lots of innocent NPCs around.
Oh sure, I can alter large parts of the adventure to make it sensible, but that it is written the way it is shows Paizo's mindset and their complete disregard for how modern societies work and instead stick to heroic fantasy scenarios with the PCs being the only competent people and having all freedoms and no limits.
LOL! I am not altering large parts of the adventure.
Paizo is not disregarding how modern societies work at all.
You are ignoring Verthani society as described in the Cuvacara article.
Keep in mind the society is Verthani not human. The way Cuvacara is described they love their city, they are proud of the city warts and all.
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Look, after the PCs gun down people in public places they just head over to the nearest certified lawful church with a sworn Mystic to give their Zone of Truth/Detect Lies/Mind Probe verified statement that it was justified by self defense or some other exception in the local legal code, and the local prosecutor rules that it's fine. Starfinder just abstracts this away to keep the action going.
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Look, after the PCs gun down people in public places they just head over to the nearest certified lawful church with a sworn Mystic to give their Zone of Truth/Detect Lies/Mind Probe verified statement that it was justified by self defense or some other exception in the local legal code, and the local prosecutor rules that it's fine. Starfinder just abstracts this away to keep the action going.So what happens when during this session they also mention that an evil corporation will turn its customers into zombies in a few days?
According to the adventure: "We will look into it eventually"
Oh my. A corrupt and/or lazy police force? That is certainly a trope that has no basis in the real world.
Look, after the PCs gun down people in public places they just head over to the nearest certified lawful church with a sworn Mystic to give their Zone of Truth/Detect Lies/Mind Probe verified statement that it was justified by self defense or some other exception in the local legal code, and the local prosecutor rules that it's fine. Starfinder just abstracts this away to keep the action going.So what happens when during this session they also mention that an evil corporation will turn its customers into zombies in a few days?
Lot's of people believe lots of crazy things. I'm sure they filed a report and it'll get on the Department of Divination schedule by next quarter, with a follow up surveillance order and, if substantiated, a warrant to inspect the premises within a month or two after that.
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Lot's of people believe lots of crazy things. I'm sure they filed a report and it'll get on the Department of Divination schedule by next quarter, with a follow up surveillance order and, if substantiated, a warrant to inspect the premises within a month or two after that.
Except that the same session which let them get away with murder (if they were able to fool it) confirmed that story, too.
Either you believe it completely or you don't believe it at all.
If you believe you acted in self defense, and such a belief is required for the affirmative defense against murder and is verified by magic, then you walk free. If you believe in a vast conspiracy to mind control the populace, and your belief is verified by magic, you might just be a crackpot or seriously mistaken. More investigation required.
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The lack of laws and punishments for PCs is an issue with the setting, but it is born from the mechanics. The need to have high level police to be able to take down high level PCs that might be resisting arrest takes the shine off those PCs. Why would a world need PCs when the police are even stronger?
With the power increase from level to level, you either need to have an impotent police force (which just invites PCs to run roughshod over them), or a leveled police force (then your PCs aren't really needed).
This isn't an issue in shadowrun, because it does not have nearly as fast a power progression, and its combat is far deadlier (can't speak to 6th edition, but it was in the previous 5 editions).
If you make combat grittier in Starfinder, maybe every critical hit bypasses stamina and goes directly to HP, then even a group of level 1 police NPCs might be able to challenge high level PCs. Then you can make PCs worry about shoot-outs in broad day light or wonder where that mini-missile landed when it missed its target and flew out the 50th floor window.
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I guess the future isn't a police state and people are supposed to take care of themselves.
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I guess the future isn't a police state and people are supposed to take care of themselves.So basically the Pact Worlds are a failed state.
I'm pretty sure 'not a police state' is not the same as a 'failed state'.
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I'm also pretty sure "police state" isn't the same as "police respond to gun battles in the streets".
As pointed out by Hawk Kriegsman, the police do respond to gun battles, both in lore and adventure writing. But they aren't typically equipped with teleporters to get there in any relevant time frame. And it will take time to investigate such scenes, determine who was involved and why. At the pace of some adventures, the PCs might well be in another plane by the time the investigators figure out who dunnit.
Keep in mind an average gun battle in starfinder is likely less than a minute. If it takes the police minutes to respond from the first round of combat, the participants will have simply moved on before police response. That's assuming there is someone with their comm in hand ready to dial when the first shot is fired.
On top of that, we have this blurb from the silencer in the armory:
Similar to flash suppression, modern weapons have sound-suppression hardware built in to protect users and bystanders from high-decibel reports, but this doesn’t make a weapon silent.
Guns are by default somewhat suppressed. The sound doesn't carry as far as modern weapons, which reduces the chance of it being heard by concerned citizens in the first place. That's also assuming projectile weapons, who knows what sounds a disintegrator makes, or how much wasted sound is made by sonic weapons, or if ice weapons aren't just a simple hiss.
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No, in the adventure the police only comes when specifically called by an NPC. But open battles, including the use of grenades, on a busy street alone does not attract police attention. And even if the PCs are out on bail this does not mean anything. There are no restrictions placed on them, they still have all their weapons and can fight again on the streets hours later and even can freely access their starship and simply leave with no fuss at all.
As the adventure is written yes, you are 100% correct.
As I run the adventure you are 100% wrong.
In my game the PCs will not be armed to the teeth without being very clever and sneaky.
If the PCs get too out of hand, then the authorities will respond.
As for just hopping on their spaceship and leaving.
When the PCs entered Verces space, Verces Systems Defense fighters approached the ship, they had to identify themselves and were subject to a security scan.
When they landed in Cuvacara their ship was boarded, their manifest was examined and they had to show valid ID.
Their ship is on a landing pad at the spaceport. That ship is secured on the landing pad (similar to how airliners are secured on a runway) and the landing pad is secured by spaceport security.
So no, the PCs cannot just hop in their ship and leave if they have caused a bunch of trouble.
They can and will be arrested if the situation warrants it.
And no none of that is in the published adventure, but it is how I have run adventures for better part of 40 years.
I let the published adventure do the heavy lifting by proving the setting, plot and some details.
I then add details and background to fit my campaign, my liking and my players liking.
For me it takes very little time or effort and I enjoy it.
Please read this with no snark, sarcasm, or politics intended:
If your PCs don't want to be arrested or decide they are leaving the spaceport without authorization, do high level cops show up to force the issue?
I've always resisted using a large force of leveled NPCs to enforce laws. In pathfinder, my random guards are usually level 1, sergeants might be level 3, their lieutenant level 5, and the captain of the guard maybe level 7.
A squad wouldn't stand a chance against a bunch of 5th level PCs, and the whole force could probably be wiped out by 10th level PCs.
While my players are usually playing heroes and usually wouldn't want to kill legitimate authorities, sometimes there's a new guy or a character that's an anti-hero or has a bad past and so going with the police might not seem viable.
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Please read this with no snark, sarcasm, or politics intended:
If your PCs don't want to be arrested or decide they are leaving the spaceport without authorization, do high level cops show up to force the issue?
I've always resisted using a large force of leveled NPCs to enforce laws. In pathfinder, my random guards are usually level 1, sergeants might be level 3, their lieutenant level 5, and the captain of the guard maybe level 7.
A squad wouldn't stand a chance against a bunch of 5th level PCs, and the whole force could probably be wiped out by 10th level PCs.
While my players are usually playing heroes and usually wouldn't want to kill legitimate authorities, sometimes there's a new guy or a character that's an anti-hero or has a bad past and so going with the police might not seem viable.
I mean, the point isn't necessarily to force the PCs to do a thing. The point is to have the PCs exist in an immersive world (for very levels of immersivity). If your players want their actions to have consequences then as a GM you should implement them. That doesn't mean the cops actually need to be capable of stopping them.
But it does mean that after they kill the cops that they're going to be wanted criminals not welcome in the normal ports of call. They wont be able to dock many places. They'll have to figure out how to rig their ships transponder to have a different signature. They'll need to hide their ships drive signature to make it look like some other ship.
You could arguably impose restriction on what they can buy. Instead of being able to normally by level + 1, or level +2 in Absaolom Station (or similar places) perhaps now with the heat on they can only get on level or even level -1 gear easily.
In fact, as a GM you don't want to catch the PC because that pretty much is just a game over. Successfully catches the PCs with the cops means likely at least a few months to get through the justice, and if found guilty potentially years in jail. Whatever the campaign was, is over by the time the PCs are released.
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If your PCs don't want to be arrested or decide they are leaving the spaceport without authorization, do high level cops show up to force the issue?
you don't need to use high level cops. You just have a nice, stable, space station with lots of nuclear weapons that will atomize the adventurers when they try to leave port.
The reason that the nice stable space station isn't solving your problems is because its a stable space STATION... its not designed to go where the adventure/problem is.
One of the weirder things in the system: the split between ship build points and ship power, and character build points and power, solves one of the oldest dilemas in level based gaming.
And if the PCs try to take over a space station, even a level 1 technomancer or mechanic or ysoki janitor can be an absolute terror with station security, airlocks, and a master system password.
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I think the police are plenty effective against youe average character in the setting.
The PCs simply get a plot pass because it makes the game fun.
That doesn't mean any of things you're saying are correct, it simply means Paizo didn't want to force the PCs to be constantly evading the police just to have an adventure.
Please read this with no snark, sarcasm, or politics intended:
If your PCs don't want to be arrested or decide they are leaving the spaceport without authorization, do high level cops show up to force the issue?
Depending on the circumstances yes they do. Sometimes the authorities let them leave and as the PCs ship breaks atmosphere there is a Heavy Cruiser waiting for them. Starships are the great equalizer. The PCs have their single ship at their disposal, while Verces has fleets of starships available.
I've always resisted using a large force of leveled NPCs to enforce laws. In pathfinder, my random guards are usually level 1, sergeants might be level 3, their lieutenant level 5, and the captain of the guard maybe level 7.A squad wouldn't stand a chance against a bunch of 5th level PCs, and the whole force could probably be wiped out by 10th level PCs.
Yes that is pretty much how I do it. Maybe if it an elite force the level would be +1 along the same guidelines you have above.
The one difference in Starfinder is numbers. You are talking 30 million people in a city like Cuvacara. If we look at a similar sized city like Tokyo the Cuvacara police force would be around 40,000 officers.
Sheers numbers would do the PCs in if they went that far off the rails.
There are also other ways to reel the PCs in if they abuse legitimate authorities.
As mentioned prior, planets won't let them land. Employment opportunities dry up as not many want to do business with psychopaths.
If they are Stafinders, Stewrards, Xenowardens or the like they will get disciplined, demoted or kicked out.
Non-evil mystics may lose their connection and have no spells.
Also the authorities could turn to an adventuring group themselves to hunt down the PCs.
For every Order of the Stick there is a Linear Guild.
While my players are usually playing heroes and usually wouldn't want to kill legitimate authorities, sometimes there's a new guy or a character that's an anti-hero or has a bad past and so going with the police might not seem viable.
I have been very fortunate to have a quality group for a long, long while.
They take the role of hero seriously. Every so often some one tries to go the anti-hero route.
What usually happens is the anti-hero gets booted out of the group and the player has to come up with a new character.
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Personal dislike =/= broken