Grappling. Athletics DC vs Fortitude DC

[zaragoz]

Greetings from Spain

Ok. I have some doubts about grappling and the escape action.
Sometimes, the rules listed an Athletics DC and others, an Fortitude DC.

- On page 242. Grapple Action: "You attempt to grab an opponent with your free hand. Attempt an Athletics check against their Fortitude DC."

- On page 470. Escape Action: "Attempt a check using your unarmed attack modifier against the DC of the effect. This is typically the Athletics DC of a creatura grabbing you..."

- On page 620. Immobilized Condition: "If you're immobilized by something holding you in place and an external force would move you out of your space, the force must succeed at a check against either the DC of the effect holding you in pace or the relevant devense (usually Fortitude DC) of the monster holding you in place."

So, I don't know but this isn't very clear. Is there any official explanation?

[Blave]

Those are different things.

Fortitude DC is a creature's Fortitude Save bonus +10.
Athletics DC is their Athletics bonus +10.

Different actions require checks against different DCs.

[Unicore]

Especially for Bestiary creatures, not everyone will have an athletics DC, while most creatures that do grapple people consistently do. Basically think of it this way:

Anyone trained in grappling techniques will have an Athletics DC, which is what you should use as the DC to escape the grapple.

Fortitude is the default save to use as a target for attempts to grapple, and for any other kind of restraining ability that might not be an actual trained grapple.

Does that help?

So the pg 242 is telling you that Fortitude is the DC that you target when you try to grapple someone.

After you have been grappled, the DC is usually the Athletics DC of the creature that grappled you, but if it doesn't have an athletics DC, then use Fortitude. (this is the information of 470), remember if you have been tied up, it would be the Thievery DC of the person that tied you up or the DC set by the item restraining you. Escape is worded the way it is because it is not just for escaping grappling.

the pg 620 reference is just telling you that if someone is trying to use a spell like gust of wind, or some other "external effect" to move you once you have been grappled, the GM has to determine if it should be basically be a escape check against the grapplers athletics check, or again if it is a spell or other unusual circumstance holding something in place, you can default to Fortitude.

The rules here are designed to be helpful to the GM, rather than an exhaustive flow chart that must be followed like in PF1.

Generally creatures make athletics checks against fortitude to initiate a grapple. To break out of a grapple you must beat the athletics DC of the grappling creature, unless they don't have one, in which case you use their fortitude save DC. Otherwise, you would have to have a strong athletics skill proficiency and fortitude save proficiency to be able to grapple and hold anyone.

[shroudb]

Basically: the "attacker rolls"

When you try to grapple someone, you roll Athletics check vs a difficulty of their Fort DC (Fort+10)

When they try to break free they roll athletics (or acrobatics) vs a difficulty of your Athletics DC (ahletics+10)

In pf2 there are no opposed checks. It's always 1 roll vs a difficulty.

[zaragoz]

Wonderful !!!

Thank you for all your answers.

[Super Zero]

If you’re not trained in a skill, your skill DC is 10+ your ability modifier. No scaling. It might be 9 (or lower, though not likely for PCs).

Therefore, you’re never required to use a skill defensively. You can be bad at grappling or tying people up, and that’s okay because you can just not try to do those things. If you’re helpless to evade them or escape, though, that’s not fair because you can’t choose to avoid them. So offensive actions target a save or Perception, which PCs and monsters are always trained in (though I imagine non-combatant NPCs aren’t always). Defensive actions can target skill DCs, but they won’t require skill checks—hence the allowance to use an attack bonus to Escape.