When I first saw heal/harm I honestly expected them to be baseline. But they were the exception.
Vast majority of spells are 2 actions only and frankly that's boring.
Meta magic only adds actions Wich just turns you into a one round wonder.
But going through every spell one by one and adding 1 and 3 action options is massive work. One I may take up someday.
But addressing cantrips is much easier.
Simple option. Give a cast down cantrip option. Lowers it to 1 action. Give it the flourish trait when you do so. And lower the effect of the cantrip.
Example being produce flame. 1d4+4 optimal at level 1. 1 action flourish drops it to just your modifier. At level 3 where it would become 2d4+4. The flourish option makes it 1d4+4. Level 20 instead of 10d4+6 it's 5d4+6.
As for the non attack cantrips I'd have to look more into each of them on there own.
More than the flourish trait I'd give them maybe a specific trait like
"Overcharge" "Open"
Which would allow the player to perform the cantrip as a 1 action spell, but then the caster wouldn't be able to cast more spells.
And since it has the opening trait, it could be just used once ( you could save your flourish reaction for something else).
You will basically kill 2 birds with one stone.
Then a castle might make a good use of strides, recall checks, skill checks, attacks, etc...
I don't see how that helps anything I guess.
I don't see how that helps anything I guess.More than the flourish trait I'd give them maybe a specific trait like
"Overcharge" "Open"
Which would allow the player to perform the cantrip as a 1 action spell, but then the caster wouldn't be able to cast more spells.
And since it has the opening trait, it could be just used once ( you could save your flourish reaction for something else).
You will basically kill 2 birds with one stone.
Then a castle might make a good use of strides, recall checks, skill checks, attacks, etc...
Oh that.
My point was just to prevent spellcasters to use cantrips and real spells in the same turn.
Imagine to use a lvl 4 spell and a flourish attack cantrip.
Then compare the damage to any combat class ( not to say that, as you already pointed out, saving throw spells would require some modifies too with that system ).
after doing the math, i guess im failing to see how it would upset any balance. for 3 actions, you slightly pull ahead of a fighters single action when he uses a 2 handed weapon, and fall behind if he successfully hits a second time. thats with blowing a finite resource. and id argue even with this change, it doesnt change that occassionally shield/move/recall knowledge, etc is a better decision.
Quickened Cantrip
Requires cantrips cast at 2nd or higher level, the cantrip takes 2 or more actions to cast, and no spells have been cast already.
Effect: Reduce number of actions to cast by 1 action; The cantrip's effective level is cut in half, round down. The DC of the spell takes a circumstance penalty of -2.
This would mean that using Quickened Cantrip a third level caster could cast a quickened daze, as a 1st level Daze (with a -2 to the DC) followed up by a regular daze spell, normal level.
I've contemplated, perhaps instead of making the circumstance penalty to DC's be -5 instead of -2, with the idea of it being similar to a MAP penalty.
Certainly my concern would be with utility spells that are useful in combat circumstances, that being able to cast them quickly, and the level they are cast at not being important could make the rule have too much impact.
The idea of requiring no other spells have been cast yet, is to keep there from being no reason not to cast a 1 action cantrip as your last action. If you have to cast a weak cantrip as your first action, it means that casting another attack cantrip afterwards would suffer from MAP, making you more likely to try to mix things up. Applying a penalty to the DC means save based spells won't be simply no-brainer spells to pair against attack spells, since you want to avoid MAP.
Quickened Cantrip
Requires cantrips cast at 2nd or higher level, the cantrip takes 2 or more actions to cast, and no spells have been cast already.
Effect: Reduce number of actions to cast by 1 action; The cantrip's effective level is cut in half, round down. The DC of the spell takes a circumstance penalty of -2.This would mean that using Quickened Cantrip a third level caster could cast a quickened daze, as a 1st level Daze (with a -2 to the DC) followed up by a regular daze spell, normal level.
I've contemplated, perhaps instead of making the circumstance penalty to DC's be -5 instead of -2, with the idea of it being similar to a MAP penalty.
Certainly my concern would be with utility spells that are useful in combat circumstances, that being able to cast them quickly, and the level they are cast at not being important could make the rule have too much impact.
The idea of requiring no other spells have been cast yet, is to keep there from being no reason not to cast a 1 action cantrip as your last action. If you have to cast a weak cantrip as your first action, it means that casting another attack cantrip afterwards would suffer from MAP, making you more likely to try to mix things up. Applying a penalty to the DC means save based spells won't be simply no-brainer spells to pair against attack spells, since you want to avoid MAP.
eh, a caster casting a half damage cantrip using its last action isnt the defacto option, its the option when you dont feel the need to shield, or move, or recall knowledge, or intimidate, or...like...any other 3rd action option you could normally do.
the players who default to only ever doing a 1 action half damage cantrip are just handicapping themselves and the group, if thats all they ever do.
that said, im for allowing players these options, as opposed to hand holding/forcing them down narrow decision paths.
Quickened Cantrip
Requires cantrips cast at 2nd or higher level, the cantrip takes 2 or more actions to cast, and no spells have been cast already.
Effect: Reduce number of actions to cast by 1 action; The cantrip's effective level is cut in half, round down. The DC of the spell takes a circumstance penalty of -2.This would mean that using Quickened Cantrip a third level caster could cast a quickened daze, as a 1st level Daze (with a -2 to the DC) followed up by a regular daze spell, normal level.
I've contemplated, perhaps instead of making the circumstance penalty to DC's be -5 instead of -2, with the idea of it being similar to a MAP penalty.
Certainly my concern would be with utility spells that are useful in combat circumstances, that being able to cast them quickly, and the level they are cast at not being important could make the rule have too much impact.
The idea of requiring no other spells have been cast yet, is to keep there from being no reason not to cast a 1 action cantrip as your last action. If you have to cast a weak cantrip as your first action, it means that casting another attack cantrip afterwards would suffer from MAP, making you more likely to try to mix things up. Applying a penalty to the DC means save based spells won't be simply no-brainer spells to pair against attack spells, since you want to avoid MAP.
eh, a caster casting a half damage cantrip using its last action isnt the defacto option, its the option when you dont feel the need to shield, or move, or recall knowledge, or intimidate, or...like...any other 3rd action option you could normally do.
the players who default to only ever doing a 1 action half damage cantrip are just handicapping themselves and the group, if thats all they ever do.
that said, im for allowing players these options, as opposed to hand holding/forcing them down narrow decision paths.
and
really half effect and a penalty to AC. what did the cantrips did to you?
flourish and maybe a -2 penalty seems like its fair enough. No need to make it half effect or require that it must be done as the first action.
Having the Spell level of the cantrip lowered in part to keep the normal once a day quickened casting potentially viable. It allows you to cast a spell once a day, with one less action, of a spell level one less than your max spell level.
I don't see a -2 to the DC being a significant enough penalty to override the once a day on the other form of Quickened Casting. If you can cast a full powered cantrip with half the actions, and only a bit of a dip in DC, it may mean you seldom cast a non-quickened cantrip, especially any attack cantrip where the only impact to the spell is a reduced action cost. It needs to be a weaker form of the cantrip if you are spending half the actions to cast, and you aren't using a daily resource to kick it off. The reduced spell level may also help with keeping Utility cantrips from becoming 'never ever cast unquickened' as doing the quickened version of any spell should cost you something in respect to the effect, otherwise all you have really done is reduce the casting action cost of the spell.
And no, I don't think that you should be able to cast 2x full powered, 2-action cantrips in a single round. On the other hand casting a 2-action cantrip, and a weakened cantrip in in a round seems reasonable. There should also be a choice between casting the 1-action and 2-action version of the spell, when the rest of your actions will potentially be non-spell related. Leaving them full powered (but a -2 to DC) means attack cantrips have no reason ever to be cast as non-quickened spells. (I guess unless you are multi-classed and trying to use your other classes flourish ability) To me that seems like a problem.
Ok, you might be able to apply a -2 to DC as well as a -2 to attack rolls for quickened spells due to rushed aiming. But that does nothing to utility spells: Dancing Lights, Forbidding Ward, Ghost Sound, Know Direction, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Sigil, Stabilize, Summon Instrument for example. Perhaps, in addition to the -2 to DC, and reduction in spell level, cutting the range of the quickened cantrip in half might impact some of the utility cantrips? Then, if you know you want to move, you can trade casting a full version of the cantrip, to move, but due to casting the quickened version of the cantrip, you might need to move closer than you might have otherwise chosen to move? Again, leaving options open, but having the quicker casting have a cost.
Honestly restricting level on utility spells doesn't do a whole lot for a number of those things other than for instance it prevents the heightened version of Forbidding Ward from ever being available in the quickened form, but doesn't make the quickened version any weaker than the normal version until that point that the caster can cast 6th level spells. Detect magic, the quickened forms would be more vulnerable to the higher level illusion effects. Mage hand impacts how far and how much it can move.
edit: Note that my intent isn't to give casters a significant buff in power. Instead it is to, as proposed allow the casters more options with respect to the 3 action system, which I will admit that with a lot of their primary options being by default 2 actions, leaves them less general flexibility in the action system.
I still don't see how what your suggesting has any bearing on my home brew.
It's not two full power spells. It's a half damage cantrip for one action.
Ok, appoligies I was trying to find something other than 1/2 damage since damage isn't the only thing cantrips do. So scaling against something else that makes the spells naturally less powerful was the purpose of my suggestion. I was trying to have it naturally cover buff/debuff and utlity spells naturally with a more general rule. It is hard to do though, as even dropping a spell level from 2nd to first doesn't always impact things.
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The downsides to doing this are going to reach far beyond just the DPR consequences, it's also going to effectively turn every Spellcaster who opts-in for this type of thing into what would effectively be a tactical playbook that encourages them to be stationary artillery and forces the rest of their party to play interference and tank/bodyblock for them for most of every combat, effectively knee-capping a TON of their own abilities... all in the name of squeezing a bit more damage out for the self-centered blaster caster.
I hate to be a party pooper but PF2 isn't about squeezing out an extra X damage to win combats, it's about playing smart and tactical decisions and anything that pulls away from this is going to end up a more of a detriment to the party than a boon.
Just my 2 cp though so please take my salt shaker as it's almost certainly due with a pinch.
The downsides to doing this are going to reach far beyond just the DPR consequences, it's also going to effectively turn every Spellcaster who opts-in for this type of thing into what would effectively be a tactical playbook that encourages them to be stationary artillery and forces the rest of their party to play interference and tank/bodyblock for them for most of every combat, effectively knee-capping a TON of their own abilities... all in the name of squeezing a bit more damage out for the self-centered blaster caster.
I hate to be a party pooper but PF2 isn't about squeezing out an extra X damage to win combats, it's about playing smart and tactical decisions and anything that pulls away from this is going to end up a more of a detriment to the party than a boon.
Just my 2 cp though so please take my salt shaker as it's almost certainly due with a pinch.
?
If a player wants to do that it should be their choice to do it, instead of being hand held with arbitrary walls that keeps them from playing suboptimally.
Most of the time even with this change, they'd be better off doing something else.
It's another option though and I don't see how it's bad outside of a player whose bad Y tactics, and you can't save prone from themselves.
A sorcerer can already cast a damage spell and cantrip in the same round.
Focus spell I assume you refer to.