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Again and again I encounter people who can't seem to wrap their heads around the confusing Stealth terminology of 2E. (Specifically Unnoticed, Undetected, Hidden, Observed.) Unnoticed, Undetected, and Hidden pretty much mean the same thing in common English, so differentiating between the three conditions can be tricky for some. This is further impacted by similar terms used elsewhere, like "Concealed." (I recently came across a Facebook post in which several people were thinking you could not be both Hidden and Concealed--they were conflating the rules terms, rather than recognizing them as independent mechanics that could both apply at once.)
Why couldn't the developers have simply used the terms Unaware, Unseen, Sensed, Seen? These terms would have made it much simpler for most people, I think. (Though I recognize that not everyone thinks as I do, and so this would be far from being universally true, regardless of the terms used.)
Even for creatures who don't rely on vision, my proposed terms could have just been explained away as being simplified game terminology.
What do you think? Would these terms make more sense to you? Have the official terms ever caused issues for you? Do you have alternate terms you think would fit better than those above?
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I think it had something to do with the terminology being used in weird ways. "You are ______ by/from the creature"
Unnoticed, undetected, hidden, and observed all work in that sentence (hidden needing the from, but close enough)
Where as the terms you said change the meaning of the sentence (unaware requiring it to flip the sentence around)
I think that was their given reason, or something similar, when this first came.up.when the game came out.
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Also, these are conditions. Unaware becomes even more of an issue. Plus you use "hide" to become "hidden" and not everything uses eyes
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(I recently came across a Facebook post in which several people were thinking you could not be both Hidden and Concealed--they were conflating the rules terms, rather than recognizing them as independent mechanics that could both apply at once.)
To be clear, you can't really be both. The only mechanical difference is that hidden is a 50% miss chance and concealed is a 20% miss chance, and the two wouldn't stack. Saying you can be both is like saying you can be Enfeebled 1 and Enfeebled 2 at the same time. It is sorta true but has no mechanical relevance.
Why couldn't the developers have simply used the terms Unaware, Unseen, Sensed, Seen? These terms would have made it much simpler for most people, I think. (Though I recognize that not everyone thinks as I do, and so this would be far from being universally true, regardless of the terms used.)
Even for creatures who don't rely on vision, my proposed terms could have just been explained away as being simplified game terminology.
They actually had terms similar to these during the playtest-- Unseen, sensed, concealed, and seen. (There was no unnoticed condition in the playtest.) I think they changed them because of push back from the visually impaired community. Even with the current rule set, there are folks who don't like that there are spells that refer to targeting creatures you can "see" rather than "observe." Clarity and inclusiveness are sometimes at odds. In this case, inclusiveness is actually more accurate, because there are creatures (if not necessarily PCs) who use alternatives to sight for precise senses.
Even setting aside the ableism consideration, your specific suggestions don't really work. All the current terms and most of your suggested terms refer to the sneaky person. I am hidden. I am unobserved. I am seen. Unaware, however, refers to the other party. YOU are unaware of me. Grammatically it is inconsistent with the other conditions, which makes it more confusing.
There may be a better set of terms that could be used, but I've yet to see anyone suggest them.
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Wait wait. Are you suggesting:
1) Unaware, Unseen, Sensed, Seen (for visual)
2) Unaware, Unheard, Sensed, Heard (for audio)
3) Unaware, Untasted, Sensed, Tasted (for taste)
4) Unaware, Unsmelled, Sensed, Smelled (for smell)
5) Unaware, Untouched, Sensed, Touched (for tactile)
6) Unaware, Unfelt, Sensed, Felt (for "sixth")
Thus breaking Perception into:
1) Spot
2) Listen
3) Taste
4) Smell
5) Touch
6) "Feeling"
That way, each time a creature interacts with another, we have a keyword language to describe by which sense or senses are sensing each creature, and can roll accordingly?
To be honest I don't mind the exact description for each of the individual status, however I do mind that each status and how to gain/lose it is properly defined for every mode of play. And this is where I see much room for improvement in the CRB, especially when it comes to the transition in between exploration and encounter mode (it might already be all in there, however it is damn hard to understand, at least as far as our group is concerned).
The problem is that there aren't two English words that can easily differentiate between "a creature knows you are present but doesn't know where you are" and "a creature knows where you are but can't perceive you directly." They went with undetected and hidden, but honestly hidden could have worked for either one of them.
The problem is that there aren't two English words that can easily differentiate between "a creature knows you are present but doesn't know where you are" and "a creature knows where you are but can't perceive you directly." They went with undetected and hidden, but honestly hidden could have worked for either one of them.Hidden is the scene in Jurassic Park where the children are hiding the kitchen... the Raptors are “seeking” and know they are somewhere in the kitchen, but they don’t know exactly where they are.
Undetected is any time Solid Snake disposes of a guard in 1 hit... the only time the guard has any idea he’s even there is 0.2 seconds before he dies.
Nope, for jurassik park example...i'm pretty sure the childrens are not hidden but they are undetected. The raptors use scent as imprecise sense but the children are using stealth.
I am not native English but for me "hidden" should also mean that the enemy does not know your position, perhaps for this reason it causes confusion. For me when someone knows the position you have to use "detected" the exact opposite of the hidden meaning.
Nope, for jurassik park example...i'm pretty sure the childrens are not hidden but they are undetected. The raptors use scent as imprecise sense but the children are using stealth.
I am not native English but for me "hidden" should also mean that the enemy does not know your position, perhaps for this reason it causes confusion. For me when someone knows the position you have to use "detected" the exact opposite of the hidden meaning.
That's a fair interpretation of the word. The problem is, if the condition we currently call undetected was renamed to hidden, then what do we name the condition we currently call hidden?
One reason they might have gone with the names they did is so that the result of successfully performing the Hide action is that you become hidden.
One reason they might have gone with the names they did is so that the result of successfully performing the Hide action is that you become hidden.
I think this is the nail in the coffin. Hide resulting in Hidden is the only allowable option.
As little as I like the adjectives involved, I can't see that changing at all.
The metric system is based on water.
Not entirely, and they've since broken that artifice, the seven fundamental units are all defined on constants and observables, rather than physical objects.
The kilogram was the last one, but it was finally redefined and ratified in 2018.