Lore-wise, what are you doing when you ID a magic item?

[Moppy]

Back in the days of AD&D, the mechanics and lore were combined. You would ID an item by pointing it at a volunteer(?) and pressing the button.

In this more refined day, age, and edition, you roll a dice.

What is the wizard actually doing in the game? Are they zapping mice? Examining the magics?

edit: One supposes there are parallels with modern engineering; the quickest way of determining what a complex magical box (a large software program) does is to run it (ideally in a virtual machine for safety). So who's volunteering in Golarion?

[Claxon]

I prefer to imagine that they're analyzing the magical dweomer to determine what it does. If you watched the Magicians, characters frequently use a piece of glass that enables them to see residual magic (I assume) and they can understand what it does if they are trained enough.

What you're describing is blindly activating the item, which you can still do, assuming you don't have anyone capable of more nuanced methods of analysis.

[thenobledrake]

Blind activation hasn't even been the lore of what is happening when identify spells or mechanics are used. Back in AD&D the identify spell had the caster spend the day in magically induced trance trying to resonate with the magic of an item in order to figure out what it did - that's far more like sleeping snuggled up to it than it is pointing it at a volunteer and pushing a (typically non-existent) button.

As for for the PF2 lore on what's being done, all we know is what is said and what must not be true because it isn't said. So the identifier is concentrating on what they are doing (because concentrate trait), and is thinking through their education on magic (because magical tradition skill check) to sort out what the aura of the item indicates it does (because identify magic says "Once you discover that an item, location, or ognoing effect is magical...") - and there is no risk of harm to anyone, no need for a "volunteer" to aim at (because those things would be mentioned if they were involved).

[Captain Morgan]

I think on some level it also involves seeing if you've heard of this item based on what you can observe because uncommon items have a higher DC. So it isn't strictly about what you are seeing. Also I don't think activating an item without an idea of what it is usually works. I mean, you can press the button on an immovable rod or bury a sword in something to see what happens, but you can't activate a Ring of Lies.

And honestly, investiture probably calls for some level of understanding in what you're investing as well.

[Moppy]

thenobledrake wrote:

Blind activation hasn't even been the lore of what is happening when identify spells or mechanics are used. Back in AD&D the identify spell had the caster spend the day in magically induced trance trying to resonate with the magic of an item in order to figure out what it did - that's far more like sleeping snuggled up to it than it is pointing it at a volunteer and pushing a (typically non-existent) button.

That sounds like 2E. I guess it's my fault for not specifying 1E.

It's true that the spell existed in 1E, but did anyone at low level ever cast it? You had do it within hours of discovering the item, and then rest 1+ days after. Fine if you can teleport in and out of dungeons, but that's unrealistic for low levels. You also had to wear/wield it normally while casting, and bear the consquences of that.

[Claxon]

Moppy wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

Blind activation hasn't even been the lore of what is happening when identify spells or mechanics are used. Back in AD&D the identify spell had the caster spend the day in magically induced trance trying to resonate with the magic of an item in order to figure out what it did - that's far more like sleeping snuggled up to it than it is pointing it at a volunteer and pushing a (typically non-existent) button.

That sounds like 2E. I guess it's my fault for not specifying 1E.

Well, you're in the 2E specific forum.

[Alyran]

Moppy wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

Blind activation hasn't even been the lore of what is happening when identify spells or mechanics are used. Back in AD&D the identify spell had the caster spend the day in magically induced trance trying to resonate with the magic of an item in order to figure out what it did - that's far more like sleeping snuggled up to it than it is pointing it at a volunteer and pushing a (typically non-existent) button.

That sounds like 2E. I guess it's my fault for not specifying 1E.

It's true that the spell existed in 1E, but did anyone at low level ever cast it? You had do it within hours of discovering the item, and then rest 1+ days after. Fine if you can teleport in and out of dungeons, but that's unrealistic for low levels. You also had to wear/wield it normally while casting, and bear the consquences of that.

Are you talking about 1e PF or 1e DnD? Because that is definitely not how identify worked in 1e Pathfinder.

[thenobledrake]

Claxon, Alyran... they are talking AD&D 1st, and I was mentioning AD&D 2nd (which I supposed could have had different identify spell mechanics from AD&D 1st even though most spells were unchanged between those versions).

[lemeres]

I assume it is based upon some kind of magical smell-o-vision that is innate to all living creatures (and thus why anyone with the right ID skill feat can get detect magic).

You base your observations off of vague sensations you get ("a hint of nutmeg coming from the sauce"), which you can attempt to place in relation to other areas in an attempt to understand how they supposed to function ("the nutmeg is there to add sweetness in order to mask the otherwise bitter taste of the main ingredient").

Strong scents, weak scents, sweet scents, rotten scents. I am sure you could create various associated classifications for the various schools of magic based upon this.

...and this idea is certainly great flavor dialogue for any gnome character you might make.

[shroudb]

Moppy wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

Blind activation hasn't even been the lore of what is happening when identify spells or mechanics are used. Back in AD&D the identify spell had the caster spend the day in magically induced trance trying to resonate with the magic of an item in order to figure out what it did - that's far more like sleeping snuggled up to it than it is pointing it at a volunteer and pushing a (typically non-existent) button.

That sounds like 2E. I guess it's my fault for not specifying 1E.

It's true that the spell existed in 1E, but did anyone at low level ever cast it? You had do it within hours of discovering the item, and then rest 1+ days after. Fine if you can teleport in and out of dungeons, but that's unrealistic for low levels. You also had to wear/wield it normally while casting, and bear the consquences of that.

we made use of identify back in adnd 2nd.

it was by no means a thing you did when you picked up stuff immediately, but apart from weapons and armors that you would usually identify by blindly using the fancy bejeweled sword you found in the dungeon (and possibly risking getting yourself cursed) for the more intricate items we would usually gather them with us and identify them after the delve was over in the comfort of our home base.

never played 1st ed dnd, but back to PF2 you are using a Knowledge to do so. I assume, lore wise, that this means that magic items are pretty standarised in the Golarion setting, which makes sense if you think that, as an example, you can switch runes around from one item to another.

this is further expanded by having the DCs based on the rarity of an item. A common rune is easier to identify than a rare exactly because the rare one is not a common knowledge how to make and etc.

So, what you are doing is more akin to studying the engravings, materials, forms, of the item in question and piecing together what one can make using said runes and materials. No magic involved or needed whatsoever.

[Castilliano]

There's more than one way to ID an item, or it seems to me.
A PC using skills seems to be drawing upon know-how, at least once they know it's magical, which implies there's more to it than deduction & observation. PF2's Arcana and the other magical traditions are more than just knowledge and have similarities to PF1's Spellcraft, so there's a bit of woo-woo in there too. Let's just say that the skills serve the stories told more than fit any rigorous mold.

I believe there's an NPC that can appraise as their method, which sounds like a mix of direct knowledge and indirect deciphering of the magical elements to fill in the blanks and perhaps no woo-woo.

And as to early editions, IDing by random triggering was A method, but not the only method. Mostly useful for potions because they weren't worth paying to ID and many DMs used consistent descriptions. But when in a dungeon (perhaps extensively) and curious or even feeling the item's necessary for progress, then experimentation was about the only route, perhaps after a Read Magic to get the trigger word from the symbols.
Artifacts were rough, cursed items happened. Much tragedy from treasure.