The Rapid Mantel skill feat requires that you Grab an Edge to use it. But Grab an Edge uses your reaction and is only triggered when "you fall from or past an edge or handhold."
I first ran Rapid Mantel so that a person climbing a ladder could automatically, without any cost, stand on top of the surface the ladder leads up to. (Otherwise, I add 5 feet of climbing distance to surmount the surface.) But the language doesn't support this.
And how are we supposed to adjudicate the act of finishing an upward climb? The rule for Climbing speak only on moving up the incline. Is surmounting just assumed to be automatic?
If a 6-foot-tall character climbs a 15 feet wall, does this require 10 feet, 15 feet, or 20 feet of Climbing before standing on top of it?
Rapid Mantel is in case you get thrown off a ledge or jump off I think.
You shouldn't need a feet to get up a ledge. Just add 5 ft of movement to move diagonally up one square and you're at the ledge?
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Awesome thread TRG!
I have myself found that the one player who took this would have been at a pretty big loss in terms of opportunities to use this so what I've done is take some ... liberties with the phrasing involved with "fall from or pass an edge or handhold" and treat any movement up or down a vertical obstacle to be treated as a fall. I'm treating the "pass and edge or handhold" portion as separate from the bit stating that you need to be falling first.
The way I run it is, in effect, when you climb up a surface from a rope, ladder, rocks, etc a PC will almost always be Prone when the get to the top and will need to use the Stand Action in order to get upright so in your example with the ladder what this would effectively mean is that "exiting" the ladder doesn't even require the Stand Action after they get to the top saving them from potential Movement triggered AoO and netting them the ability to use their Reaction instead of a normal Action.
_______________Top of Ladder
|=|____________Top of Cliff
|=|
|=|
|=|
|=|____________Bottom of Ladder
So here we have our 25 ft ladder going up a 20 ft cliff face, with the movement rules most Characters will move up 5 feet per 20 feet of their movement on a success or 5 + 5 feet per 20 feet per action. With two Succesful Climb Actions and a Critical Success that brings most PCs up to 20 feet, the point at which they are at the top ledge. Normally the PC would need spend another action to first Move off of the Ladder and then another Stand Action to get up on the top ledge standing which will take until their next turn in initiative (if it matters) to accomplish. With this Feat however after their three Actions, they are by the Edge and can spend their Reaction to pull themselves off the ladder and into a safe standing position which is a HUGE net boost compared to the PC without the feat.
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Leap, grab edge, ascend to top of ledge. Envision it more as freerunning than climbing.
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Leap, grab edge, ascend to top of ledge. Envision it more as freerunning than climbing.
This. When I think of Mantle I think of how Destiny 1 did not have "mantle" and you could clip your toe just under the ledge and you were gonna glide to your death, but in Destiny 2 if you were more than halfway above the cliff you were able to grab on and pull yourself easily onto the ledge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9CQLPbyXGU
In my Age of Ashes game one of the PCs was kicked off a ledge twice in one combat. Both times he made his check to Grab an Edge. If he had the Rapid Mantel feat he would have been immediately able to climb back up as part of his reaction, effectively negating his opponent's action each time. Fun fact - a third attempt was made by the same opponent, but he critically failed and fell to his death. Good times.
Leap, grab edge, ascend to top of ledge. Envision it more as freerunning than climbing.
Ah, that's one use. Thanks!
In my Age of Ashes game one of the PCs was kicked off a ledge twice in one combat. Both times he made his check to Grab an Edge. If he had the Rapid Mantel feat he would have been immediately able to climb back up as part of his reaction, effectively negating his opponent's action each time. Fun fact - a third attempt was made by the same opponent, but he critically failed and fell to his death. Good times.
That's kind of hilarious. This happened in one of my combats. Did you let him still hold anything in his hands when grabbing the edge? The rule is a little unclear on how many hands are needed to do this, too.
In my Age of Ashes game one of the PCs was kicked off a ledge twice in one combat. Both times he made his check to Grab an Edge. If he had the Rapid Mantel feat he would have been immediately able to climb back up as part of his reaction, effectively negating his opponent's action each time. Fun fact - a third attempt was made by the same opponent, but he critically failed and fell to his death. Good times.That's kind of hilarious. This happened in one of my combats. Did you let him still hold anything in his hands when grabbing the edge? The rule is a little unclear on how many hands are needed to do this, too.
He was wielding a bow, so he had one hand free each time he was kicked off. Even if both hands were full, I would allow him to drop something as part of the reaction. That's possibly house rule territory, but since it's in the PC's favor no one at my table would complain. Besides, it lead to a memorable moment in the session, which is what we're all trying to acheive.
Ah, that's one use. Thanks!Leap, grab edge, ascend to top of ledge. Envision it more as freerunning than climbing.
Remember that the leap height is about how much you can clear, rather than how far up you can reach. Given that your knees are bending to get that 3ft clearance I would probably assume your reach height is around 3ft+height. (as opposed to 3ft+(heightx1.5))
So a 6ft character would be comfortable using mantle on any 9ft wall after a standard 3ft vertical leap, accounting for gained height and stretched out arms. A bit past what many untrained people could do irl, but not by much. High jump makes this really rewarding for PC's with things like quick jump though.
Remember that the leap height is about how much you can clear, rather than how far up you can reach. Given that your knees are bending to get that 3ft clearance I would probably assume your reach height is around 3ft+height. (as opposed to 3ft+(heightx1.5))Ah, that's one use. Thanks!Leap, grab edge, ascend to top of ledge. Envision it more as freerunning than climbing.
Huh. Didn't think about High Jump being about the height you can clear. I had always added 3 feet to one's standing reach, but what you say makes more sense.
By the way, I've now incorporated your idea that once your hands can reach the surface, you can spend your Reaction to stand on top of it.
Remember that the leap height is about how much you can clear, rather than how far up you can reach. Given that your knees are bending to get that 3ft clearance I would probably assume your reach height is around 3ft+height. (as opposed to 3ft+(heightx1.5))Ah, that's one use. Thanks!Leap, grab edge, ascend to top of ledge. Envision it more as freerunning than climbing.
Huh. Didn't think about High Jump being about the height you can clear. I had always added 3 feet to one's standing reach, but what you say makes more sense.
By the way, I've now incorporated your idea that once your hands can reach the surface, you can spend your Reaction to stand on top of it.
Wait, where does it say High Jump is about much you can clear rather than how much higher one can reach? (Or both as equal which is how I've read it.)
If a PC's in a pit, it'd be odd to start calculating the bend in their knee to see if they can reach the lip. Add in Dwarf physiology (et al).PF2 (and from I recall most RPGs) seem to treat characters as if standing erect even when leaping, likely for simplicity's sake.
So you can clear it if you can leap that high and you can reach it if adding that much to your reach gets your hand that high.
(I'm reminded how in PF1 all medium creatures could reach 8' high, much to the surprise of 7' Half-Orcs and 4' Dwarfs.)
Wait, where does it say High Jump is about much you can clear rather than how much higher one can reach? (Or both as equal which is how I've read it.)
It actually only states it is how far you can clear, as it is measuring jump distance not character height. It doean't mention anything about bent knees but that is only being sensible as a 3ft(1metere) standing jump with straight legs is DAMN impressive and would be weird.
There are no rules regarding arm lengthvand all of that, it was just an explanation of how to simply rule it without resulting in stupidly weird scenarios.
a good example of someone straight jumping
Especially the jumps at the end, straight legged he gets 1.5-2 ft. Off the ground even with small run ups.
A one legged bent knee 1 meter standing jump
Now imagine that without him bending his knees but still getting ontop of that box. Doable in pf2e with enough speed, feats and a good athletics skill because it lets you do the impossible. But for the standard leap ability? I call doubt that they intend everyone to be mario ;)